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PRESENTED MY 



REPORT 



OF THE 



SPECIAL COMMITTEE 



OF THE 



NEW YORK YACHT CLUB 



Relative to Certain Charges made by the 

Earl of Dunraven concerning the 

recent Match for the 

America's Cup 



New York 

Printed for the Club 

MDCCCXCVI 



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Gift 

Mrn. Julia* J»*» 

1912 



©ouglas Uaslor & Co, 
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{Table of Contents 

PAGE 

Report of the Committee i to xxx 

Proceedings on the Examination of Witnesses 1 to 531 

Friday, December 27th, 1895, Morning Session 1 

Mr. Askwith's Opening on Behalf of Lord Dunraven. . . 4 
Letter, October 25th, 1894, Lord Dunraven to 

Mr. Oddie ' 6 

Letter, November 15th, 1894, Mr. Smith to Lord 

Dunraven 7 

Letter, December 1st, 1894, Lord Dunraven to Mr. 

Smith 7 

Letter, January 14th, 1895, Mr. Smith to Lord 

Dunraven 7 

Letter, September 6th, 1895, Lord Dunraven to Mr. 

Canfield 8 

Letter, September 24th, 1895, Lord Dunraven to 

Mr. Grant 18 

Letter, December 26th, 1895, Mr. Kersey to Lord 

Dunraven, 32 

Cardiff Speech 37 

Declaration by Lord Dunraven 48 

Lord Dunraven examined by Mr. Askwith 52 

" cross-examined by Mr. Choate 54 

Friday, December 27th, 1895, Afternoon Session 74 

Lord Dunraven's cross-examination continued 74 

" " re-direct examination by Mr. Askwith. 102 

Statement of Commodore Smith on behalf of the Cup 

Committee 102 

Lord Dunraven's re-direct examination by Mr. Askwith 

continued , 109 

Lord Dunraven's re-cross-examination by Mr. Choate . . 114 

Declaration of George Lennox Watson ... 119 

" Thomas White Ratsey 121 

" William Wardley Cranfield 125 

" Edward Sycamore 126 

" Arthur Herbert Glennie 127 

Mr. Glennie examined by Mr. Askwith 130 

cross-examined by Mr. Choate , 131 

Declaration of William Russell 145 

" Luther Gould 146 

" John Clarke 147 

" William Henry Greene 148 

" Edward Roper 149 



TABLE OF CONTENTS. 

Mr. Choate opens on behalf of Mr. Iselin 151 

Nathaniel G. Herreshoff examined by Mr. Choate 154 

" " " cross-examined by Mr. Askwith. 166 

Saturday, December 28th, Morning Session 168 

Mr. Herreshoff further examined by Mr. Choate 173 

Latham A. Fish examined by Mr. Choate 177 

" cross-examined by Mr. Askwith 196 

Lord Dunraven re-examined by Mr. Askwith 197 

Letter, September 27th, 1895, Lord Dunraven to Mr. 

Kersey 198 

Lord Dunraven re-cross-examined by Mr. Choate 200 

A. Cass Canfield examined by Mr. Choate 213 

" cross-examined by Mr. Askwith 217 

Saturday, December 28th, 1895, Afternoon Session 221 

Mr. Herreshoff re-examined by Mr. Choate 221 

Herbert C. Leeds examined by Mr. Choate 224 

" " cross-examined by Mr. Askwith 227 

Louis P. DeLuze examined by Mr. Choate 233 

" cross-examined by Mr. Askwith 235 

C. Oliver Iselin examined by Mr. Choate 241 

" " " cross-examined by Mr. Askwith 259 

" " " re-examined by Mr. Choate 270 

Louis F. Merrian examined by Mr. Choate 271 

Henry C. Haff examined by Mr. Choate 272 

Mr. Herreshoff re-examined by Mr. Choate 274 

cross-examined by Mr. Askwith 274 

E. Walter Brandow examined by Mr. Choate 281 

Captain Haff re-examined by Mr. Choate 282 

" re-cross-examined by Mr. Askwith 294 

John Hyslop examined by Mr. Choate 299 

Letter, September 7th, 1895, Mr. Canfield to Mr. 

Hyslop 303 

Letter, September 7th, 1895, Mr. Canfield to Mr. 

Hyslop 303 

Mr. Hyslop cross-examined by Mr. Askwith. 305 

Monday, December 30th, 1895, Morning Session 311 

William Butler Duncan, Jr., examined by Mr. Choate. . . . 311 
" " " " cross-examined by Mr. Ask- 
with 314 

Joseph R. Busk examined by Mr. Choate 316 

" " " cross-examined by Mr. Askwith 317 

Archibald Rogers examined by Mr. Choate 319 

Letter, December 30th, 1895, Lord Dunraven to Mr. 

Askwith 323 

Mr. Rogers cross-examined by Mr. Askwith 325 

Gouverneur Kortright examined by Mr. Choate 337 

George W. Blizzard examined by Mr. Choate 338 

cross-examined by Mr. Askwith 346 



TABLE OF CONTENTS. 



Newbury D. Thorne examined by Mr. Choate 348 

4 ' " " cross-examined by Mr. Askwith .... 349 

Norman W. Terry examined by Mr. Choate 350 

" " " cross-examined by Mr. Askwith 358 

James H. Berry examined by Mr. Choate 361 

" " " cross-examined by Mr. Askwith 368 

George W. Conant examined by Mr. Choate 370 

" " cross-examined by Mr. Askwith 377 

Monday, December 30th, 1895, Afternoon Session 380 

Mr. Iselin re-examined by Mr. Choate 380 

" " re-cross-examined by Mr. Askwith 381 

Irving G. Barber examined by Mr. Choate 386 

" " cross-examined by Mr. Askwith 389 

John E. Billings examined by Mr. Choate 391 

" " " cross-examined by Mr. Askwith 395 

John T. Staples examined by Mr. Choate 396 

" " " cross-examined by Mr. Askwith 401 

John E. Billings re-examined by Mr. Choate 402 

" " " re-cross-examined by Mr. Askwith 403 

Gardner K. Greene examined by Mr. Choate 403 

" " cross-examined by Mr. Askwith 406 

Michael J. O'Neill examined by Mr. Choate 406 

" " " cross-examined by Mr, Askwith 409 

George Francis examined by Mr. Choate 410 

" " cross-examined by Mr. Askwith 412 

Charles H. Billman examined by Mr. Choate 414 

" " cross-examined by Mr. Askwith 418 

Asa W. Hathaway examined by Mr. Choate 419 

" •' cross-examined by Mr. Askwith 422 

Woodbury Kane examined by Mr. Choate 423 

" " cross-examined by Mr. Askwith 425 

Deposition and examination of Willard G. Haskell 427 

Charles Scott 430 

John Pressey 432 

Horace P. Davis 435 

James Robbins 437 

Stephen Sellers 440 

Winslow C. Pickering 444 

George E. Stinson 448 

Thomas Horton 450 

Elmer E. Hamblen 454 

of Samuel Bray 459 

Roland G. Small 461 

Florestan McCauley 463 

Harry Gray 466 

Walter L. Eaton 467 

Charles A. Barter 469 

Ernest C. Haskell 471 

Rollins Staples 472 



TABLE OF CONTENTS. 

Deposition of Thomas Robbins 473 

" Warren Bray 475 

" Herbert Bray 477 

" Leslie Stinson 479 

" Eben Haskell 480 

Photographs put in evidence 482 

Explanation as to absent members of the crew 483 

Mr. Iselin examined in regard to photographs 483 

Closing statement of Mr. Askwith on behalf of Lord Dun- 
raven 493 

Tuesday, December 31st, 1895, Morning Session. 
Statement of Mr. Kersey as to grounds of refusal to testify 

before the Committee 501 

H. W. Taylor examined by Mr. Choate • 502 

" cross-examined by Mr. Askwith 515 

Captain Haff re-examined by Mr. Choate 517 

re-cross-examined by Mr. Askwith 521 

Mr. Hyslop re-examined by Mr. Choate 523 

" re-cross-examined by Mr. Askwith 525 

Arrangements made for revision of testimony 530 

Appendix 535 to 556 

Extracts from "Conditions of the Races for the America's 

Cup " 535 

Letter of Lord Dunraven, 5 September, 1895 537 

Letter of Lord Dunraven, 6 September, 1895 538 

Extract from Report of America's Cup Committee 539 

Letter from Mr. Iselin in reply to Lord Dunraven's charges. 541 

Statement of the America's Cup Committee 544 

Memorandum for Naval Constructor as to measurements of 

Defender and Report thereon 554 



IReport of tbe Committee 



Digitized by the Internet Archive 
in 2011 with funding from 
The Library of Congress 



http://www.archive.org/details/reportofspecialc08newy 



The Committee appointed by the New York 
Yacht Club by resolution adopted at a meeting 
held on the 18th of November, 1895, beg leave to 
report : 

The resolution was in these words : 

Whereas, The London Field has lately 
made public certain charges purporting to 
have been made by the Earl of Dunraven, in 
reference to the recent America Cup Races, 
sailed under the challenge of the Royal Yacht 
Squadron, and 

Whereas, This Club is of opinion that not- 
withstanding the extraordinary conduct of the 
Earl of Dunraven in respect to the time and 
manner of making such charges, it is due to 
its honor and dignity that suitable action 
should be taken in relation thereto ; 

Resolved, That Messrs. J. Pierpont Mor- 
gan, William C. Whitney and George L. 
Rives, are hereby appointed a Committee, 
with power, in their discretion, to add to their 
number, to whom the matter of said charges is 
hereby referred ; and that such Committee 
shall have full power to represent this Club in 
reference to the matter, and to take, on behalf 
of the Club, and in its name, any action which 
may seem to them proper in the premises. 

At the meeting when these resolutions were 
adopted, a letter from Mr. H. Maitland Kersey was 
read which contained the following passage : 

I have a cable from Lord Dunraven to-day 
saying that while he thinks it is now too late 
to investigate, if a desire exists among the 
members of the Club to do so, he will come over 



31 EEPOKT OF COMMITTEE. 

here and place himself at the disposal of the 
Club or its Committee. He says that he would 
not be able to get away before the 4th prox. 

Will you kindly inform either the Cinb or 
the Committee as you may think desirable ? 

The Committee, on November 23d, wrote to Mr. 
Kersey requesting that, in accordance with the 
offer contained in his letter, he would communicate 
with Lord Dunraven, and inform him that it was 
the desire of the New York Yacht Club and the in- 
tention of the Committee to begin immediately an 
investigation of the facts connected with the race 
of September 7th, and the charges made against the 
representatives of the Yacht Club. The Committee 
added that they would be prepared to enter upon 
this investigation immediately upon the arrival of 
Lord Dunraven. 

The Committee were of the opinion that as Lord 
Dunraven, in the races in question, had represented 
the Royal Yacht Squadron, it was due to that 
body to inform them of the appointment of the 
Committee and of the proposed investigation, in 
order that the Yacht Squadron might take such 
part in the investigation, or make such suggestions 
in regard to its scope and character, as it thought 
fit. 

The Committee, therefore, on November 23d, 
1895, addressed to Mr. Grant, the Secretary of the 
Squadron, the following cable : 

At a special meeting of the New York Yacht 
Club held on Monday, November 18th, the 
undersigned were appointed a committee to 
represent the Club in the matter of certain 
charges made by the Earl of Dunraven in refer- 
ence to the recent America's Cup races, and 
published in the London Field of November 
9th, 1895. 

The article in question expressly charges 
that after being measured for the cup races in 
September last, the yacht Defender was sur- 
reptitiously loaded so as to sink her four inches 
deeper in the water ; that she sailed in that 



EEPORT OF COMMITTEE. Ill 

condition on the first day's race ; and that im- 
mediately after that race the ballast so loaded 
was secretly removed, so that when measured 
the next day (Sunday) no discrepancy was 
found to exist between the two measurements. 
While Lord Dunraven intimates that the 
owners of the yacht were not personally 
cognizant of the fraud, the charge is none the 
less explicit. 

It appears from Lord Dunraven' s article that 
this statement, as published in the Field, is 
14 mainly extracted" from a letter which he 
sent to the Secretary of the Royal Yacht 
Squadron on September 24th last. We there- 
fore beg to enquire whether the charges last 
mentioned have been laid before the Royal 
Yacht Squadron, and whether any and what 
action has been taken by the Squadron upon 
the subject. 

In view of the grave imputations thus made 
by the representative of the Royal Yacht 
Squadron in an International race between the 
two great yacht clubs, the New York Yacht 
Club feels that the most searching and com- 
plete investigation of the facts and of the 
charges against the representatives of the New 
York Yacht Club should be promptly begun. 
It is our purpose to conduct such investigation 
so as to satisfy every fair-minded man on 
either side of the Atlantic ; and to that end 
we have already communicated with the Earl 
of Dunraven and requested his presence in ac- 
cordance with the offer made by him. 

The result of the investigation, with all 
testimony taken, will be transmitted to you. 

J. Pierpont Morgan, 
W. C. Whitney, 
Gr. L. Rives. 

An answer was received by cable a few days later, 
which was confirmed by the following letter from 
Mr. Grant : 

R. Y. S. Castle, 

Co WES. 

4 December, 1895. 
Gentlemen — You will have received my cables 



IV EEPORT OF COMMITTEE. 

of the 27th ultimo and of yesterday's date. 
Your cable to me of the 24th November was 
yesterday laid before the America Cup Commit- 
tee of the Royal Yacht Squadron. They re- 
quest me to say that The Squadron has taken 
no action in the matter. The complaint of the 
Earl of Dunraven, that the request made on 
Saturday, the 7th September, to Mr. Latham 
Fish — to have both vessels remeasured that 
evening, and if that was impossible, that the 
members of the Committee, or their repre- 
sentatives, should stay on board in charge of 
the vessels until th^y were measured — was not 
complied with, and all that followed in conse- 
quence of the non-compliance with that re- 
quest appears to the Committee to be purely a 
personal affair of Lord Dunraven's, and not a 
matter in which the Royal Yacht Squadron 
can interfere, nor does Lord Dunraven request 
them to do so. 

I have the honor to be, 
Gentlemen, 
Your obedient servant, 

Richard Grant, 
Secretary R. Y. S. 

The Committee, on being apprised of the deter- 
mination of the Royal Yacht Squadron to take no 
part in the proposed investigation, concluded that a 
full judicial enquiry was essential, and they there- 
upon added to their number, by invitation, Capt. 
Alfred T, Mahan, of the United States Navy, and 
Mr, Edward J. Phelps, who took part in the sub- 
sequent proceedings, the result of which is now re- 
ported. 



The charges referred to were contained in a 
pamphlet published by the Earl of Dunraven and 
reprinted in the London Field of November 9th, 
1895, and they were repeated by him in a speech at 
Cardiff on the 21st of the same month. They had 
reference to the races sailed at New York on the 
7th, 10th and 12th of September, 1895, between the 
yacht Valkyrie III, belonging to the Earl of Dun- 
raven and others, and the yacht Defender, owned 



REPORT OF COMMITTEE. V 

by Messrs. C. Oliver Iselin, Edwin D. Morgan and 
William K. Vanderbilt of New York, in competi- 
tion for what is known as the America's Cup, held 
by the New York Yacht Club, and subject to chal- 
lenge under certain conditions. Mr. Iselin was the 
managing owner. 

Lord Dunraven's statement, as contained in the 
publication above referred to, so far as it related to 
the first race, was as follows : 

The first race was sailed on September 7. 
I am of opinion that Defender did not sail on 
her measured L. W. L. length during that 
race. 

I should first explain that, to the best of my 
belief, none of the gentlemen interested in De- 
fender lived on board her or on board of her 
tender, the Hattie Palmer; that Defender's 
crew slept on board her and that, in conse- 
quence, a good deal of material, men's cots, 
etc , had to be transferred backwards and 
forwards between the Hattie Palmer and De- 
fender. A good opportunity was afforded ns of 
observing Defender when she lay close to us 
in the Erie Basin previous to docking after her 
final trial race with Vigilant, on August 31. 
When she came into the basin to be measured 
on September 6, it was plain to me, as to all on 
board the City of Bridgeport, that she was 
floating considerably higher than on the former 
occasion. That was, of course, quite unobjec- 
tionable. I may mention that according to Mr. 
Hyslop, the official measurer, Defender was 
some six inches shorter when measured for the 
Cup races than when measured for the Goelet 
Cup race. Both yachts lay inside Sandy Hook 
on Friday night; Defender's tender, the Hat- 
tie Palmer, lay alongside her, and the crew 
were at work from dark to one in the morning. 

On Saturday morning early my attention 
was drawn by those on board the City of 
Bridgeport, including representatives of her 
American crew, to the fact that Defender was 
visibly deeper in the water than when meas- 
ured. She so appeared to me ; but as her ten- 
der was alongside and engaged, apparently, in 



VI KEPOKT OF COMMITTEE. 

taking material out of her, it was impossible 
to form a definite opinion at that time. 

When I put Mr. Henderson, my represen- 
tative, on board Defender about 9 a. m., after 
the Hattie Palmer had left her, I felt per- 
fectly certain that Defender was immersed 
deeper than when measured. Not only was 
her bobstay bolt nearer the water, which 
might have been the result of alteration of 
trim ; but judging by the line of bronze 
plating, and by the fact that a pipe amidships, 
which was flush with the water when measured, 
was nowhere visible, she was, in my deliberate 
opinion, floating about four inches deeper in 
the water than when measured. 

I was reluctant to make a formal complaint 
to the Cup Committee on a matter which it 
was, of course, impossible for me to verify ; 
and in any case nothing could be done before 
the race was started ; but as soon as Mr. Latham 
Fish, a member of the committee, came on 
board Valkyrie as Defender's representative, 
and before the race was started, I stated the 
whole case to him ; told him I thought some 
mistake had been made, and that all the weight 
put into Defender, after measurement, had not 
been taken out before the race ; that I was 
positively certain she was sailing at least a foot 
beyond her proper length, and I requested him 
to take the earliest opportunity of mentioning 
the matter to the committee. Mr. Fish asked 
me what suggestions I could make, and I re- 
plied to the effect that I wished the committee 
to put one of their members, or some reliable 
representative, on board of each yacht immedi- 
ately after the race, and to have both vessels 
remeasured, if possible, that evening. If that 
were impossible, then that the members of the 
committee, or their representatives, should 
stay on board in charge of the vessels until 
they were measured ; that the L. W. L. should 
be marked on both vessels externally in such a 
way as to be plainly visible, and that the com- 
mittee should take any other steps they thought 
desirable to ensure that the yachts should not 
exceed their L. W. L. length when racing. 

I put Mr. Fish on board the commit- 
tee boat immediately after the race. No action 
was taken that evening beyond ordering 



REP0KT OF COMMITTEE. Vll 

the vessels to be remeasured and marked ex- 
ternally on the day following. No members 
or representatives of the committee were placed 
in charge pending remeasurement, as I had 
requested. 

Had this been done, my contention that 
Defender exceeded her measured length, and 
the extreme limit of length imposed by the 
agreement and deed of gift, namely, 90 feet, 
would have been proved or disproved. De- 
fender lay Saturday night at Bay Ridge, with 
the Hattie Palmer alongside of her. Both 
yachts were measured on the following day, 
(Sunday afternoon), when their L. W. L. length 
was found to be practically the same as when 
measured on the Friday previous ; but ob- 
viously that fact affords no proof that either or 
both of them had not exceeded their measured 
length when sailing on Saturday. 

Lord Dunraven's pamphlet, besides the charge 
of secret alteration of the water line length, 
contained various criticisms of the competence or 
good judgment of those who were charged with the 
management of the races on behalf of the New York 
Yacht Club. 

The Committee have confined their enquiries 
solely to the question of the truth of the charge of 
surreptitious changes in the ballasting of the De- 
fender on September 7th, not deeming themselves 
authorized or called upon to investigate any other 
circumstances connected with this or the subse- 
quent races between the same yachts, except so far 
as they might assist in determining that question. 



The Committee met at the club house of the New 
York Yacht Club, in New York, on the 27th day 
of December, 1895, and sat from day to day, with 
the exception of Sunday, until noon of the 31st, for 
the purpose of hearing evidence upon the subject 
of their enquiry. 

The Earl of Dunraven appeared before them, with 
his counsel, Mr. Askwith, and produced his own 



Vlll REPORT OF COMMITTEE. 

and various other evidence in support of the charge 
he had made. He declined to undertake to sub- 
stantiate or prosecute the charge, but said that he 
felt bound to attend and make his statement, and 
to furnish to the Committee, in aid of their enquiry, 
such evidence in support of the charge as he pos- 
sessed. 

Mr. Iselin, the managing owner of the yacht 
Defender, also appeared with his counsel, Mr. 
Choate, and testified before the Committee, and in- 
troduced evidence to disprove the charge made by 
the Earl of Dunraven. 

It was the purpose and the effort of the Commit- 
tee to avail themselves of all existing evidence on 
both sides of the case, so far as it was possible to 
obtain it. They believe that with some slight 
exceptions hereafter mentioned, and not in their 
judgment material, they have been furnished 
with and have heard and considered all the evi- 
dence that would tend to throw any light upon the 
issue. 

Lord Dunraven' s statement before the Committee 
was contained in a statutory declaration given by 
him in London, and also in his oral evidence. 

The substance of it was, that on the 31st of 
August, 1895, from on board the Valkyrie, he 
observed the Defender very closely as she lay near 
by in the Erie Basin, and noticed her trim, her line 
of immersion and general appearance. That on 
the 6th of September, when the Defender 
was again in the Erie Basin for the pur- 
poses of the official measurement above re- 
ferred to, he again saw her from the Valkyrie, 
and noticed that she was floating much lighter than 
on the 31st of August. 

That he specially noticed on the port side of 
the Defender an outlet hole about amidships, 
which was just cut by the water a little 
above the base, and which (he thought) 
was rather more than one inch in diameter ; 
that he also noticed the line of bronze plating 



REPORT OF COMMITTEE. IX 

on the side of the Defender, and the bobstay bolt, 
and its height above the water. 

That both yachts lay inside Sandy Hook on the 
night of that day, and that he slept on board 
the steamboat City of Bridgeport, a short dis- 
tance from the Valkyrie and about 200 yards 
from the Defender ; that about half-past six 
in the morning of the next day (Septem- 
ber 7th), being the day of the race, he was 
awakened by Mr. Glennie, and requested to come 
up and look at the Defender ; that he looked at 
her through a pair of glasses, and was convinced 
that she lay deeper in the water than when meas- 
ured. That he rowed up to the Defender in his gig 
that morning, to put his representative on board of 
her for the race, and had a further opportunity to 
observe the vessel in the particulars above 
stated— coming up on the starboard side under 
the stern, then along the port side and round the 
bow ; and he then inspected her with care to see 
whether the pipe hole and the other marks which 
he had observed on the previous day were in the 
same position as when she was measured ; that the 
hole was nowhere visible above the water, and that 
in his judgment and belief the line of bronze plat- 
ing and the bobstay bolt were nearer to the water 
than when she was measured. 

That judging from the fact that the pipe hole 
was immersed, and from the apparent distance of 
the bronze plating and bobstay bolt from the 
water, he came to the conclusion, which he still 
believed to be true, that the vessel was immersed 
three or four inches deeper in the water than when 
she was measured the day before. 

That he also looked carefully at the general trim 
of the Defender, and she was lying true on the 
water, and had no list to port or starboard. 

That in forming his conclusion he also took into 
account the general appearance of the Defender 
and her trim, in addition to the other matters be- 
fore mentioned. 



X REPORT OF COMMITTEE. 

Tbat afterwards, and when the Valkyrie was 
towing out to start in the race, Mr. Latham Fish, a 
member of the Cup Committee, came on board as 
the representative of the Defender ; that Lord Dun- 
raven then stated to Mr. Fish that he was sure the 
Defender was not sailing on her measured length, 
but was more deeply immersed, and was sailing at 
least a foot beyond her proper length of load water 
line, and gave Mr. Fish his reasons for that con- 
clusion. That he said to Mr. Fish that he wished 
the Committee to put one of their members, or some 
reliable representative, on board both of the yachts 
immediately after the race, and desired that the 
yachts should be remeasured the same evening, if 
possible, but if impossible, then that the repre- 
sentatives of the Cup Committee should remain on 
board the yachts until remeasurement took place. 
And that the load water line on both yachts should 
before the next race be designated by plain exter- 
nal marks. 

That Mr. Fish promised to lay the complaint and 
request before the Committee, and that immedi- 
ately after the race Mr. Fish was put on board the 
Committee boat for the purpose of so doing. 

Lord Dunraven also stated that the Hat tie 
Palmer lay alongside of the Defender the night 
before the race, and that work was going on till 
one in the morning on board the Defender. 

It appeared, and was not questioned, that the 
Defender crossed the line on the completion of the 
match at 5:29:30 o'clock in the afternoon ; that 
both yachts went up to Bay Ridge to pass the 
night ; that from the place where Mr. Fish was put 
on board to the Erie Basin was about twenty-five 
miles, and that it would have been impossible to 
reach the Basin, which was the only place 
where a measurement could be had, until long 
after dark. And Mr. Fish so stated to Lord Dun- 
raven when his request above mentioned was made. 

On the following morning, Sunday, at about ten 
o'clock, the Defender was taken into the 



REPORT OF COMMITTEE. XI 

Erie Basin and remeasured, upon notice to both 
parties and in presence of their representatives, 
and the measurement of the load water line was 
found to be substantially the same as at the previous 
measurement on the 6th, the variation being too 
trifling to be material. The accuracy of neither 
measurement was questioned. And on the same 
occasion the load water line so measured was 
plainly marked by a paint mark on the stem, and a 
red disk on each side. 

Upon cross-examination Lord Dunraven admitted 
in substance, that he judged by the eye solely and 
that the Defender might not have been sunk more 
than two inches ; that he could not be tied down to 
a definite statement in this respect ; that the dis- 
charge hole mentioned was the only mark by 
which he was enabled to verify the accuracy 
of his observation ; that in observing the 
vessel on the morning of the 7th, through the 
glass, he saw only her starboard side, the pipe hole 
being on the port side ; that there was then a rip- 
ple on the water of three or four inches ; that at 
the distance of 200 yards he could not accurately 
estimate a difference in immersion ; that the only 
other opportunity he had of observation that morn- 
ing was when he rowed out to the Defender to put 
his representative on board, and passed round the 
port side ; that he thought the bobstay bolt was 
about twelve or fourteen inches above the water on 
the 6th, and some eight or ten inches on the 7th, 
judging from observation alone ; that he thought 
the load water line was lengthened by the increased 
immersion about one foot, though he did not judge 
from that, but only from the apparent depth of the 
vessel in the water as compared with his recollec- 
tion of her in the basin the day before. 

The testimony of Mr. Glennie, who appeared be- 
fore the Committee in person, and of Mr. Ratsey, 
whose ex parte statutory declaration was read, was 
also produced on the part of Lord Dunraven. These 
witnesses spent the night of September 6th on board 



Xll REPORT OF COMMITTEE. 

the City of Bridgeport with Lord Dunraven, and 
at about six o'clock in the morning of the seventh 
they rowed around the Defender in a small boat. 
Their evidence was to the same general effect as 
that of Lord Dunraven, on the point of the appar- 
ent increase in the immersion of the Defender. 

Mr. Glennie placed the apparent immersion at 
about one and a half inches more on the 7th than on 
the 6th. 

Testimony to the same effect was also introduced 
in the shape of an ex parte statutory decla- 
ration of Mr. Watson, the designer of 
the Valkyrie, who testified that on the morn- 
ing of the first official measurement, at 
the Erie Basin, he plainly saw above water 
the pipe hole mentioned by Lord Dunraven, but 
did not see the Defender on the morning of the 
race, and that on the day of the re-measurement he 
again saw the pipe hole above water. 

Similar ex parte declarations from Captains Cran- 
field and Sycamore of the Valkyrie were also read. 
They confirmed from general observation the state- 
ment of Lord Dunraven as to the apparent increased 
immersion of the Defender, but neither of these 
witnesses saw the Defender except from the deck 
of the Valkyrie, at a distance of about 300 yards. 

Three other witnesses were mentioned by Lord 
Dunraven to the Committee, as persons whom he 
thought would give evidence to the same effect as 
above stated : Mr. Kersey, a resident of New York, 
who had been the representative of Lord Dunraven 
in the United States in matters connected with this 
match; the captain of the steamer City of Bridgeport, 
which was used at the races as a tender to the 
Valkyrie ; and the pilot of the Valkyrie. These 
witnesses were not produced. It was not claimed 
that their evidence would be other than cumulative 
to that given by the other witnesses on the part of 
Lord Dunraven, and of the same character. Never- 
theless the Committee, on their own account, not 
being authorized to issue compulsory process for 



KEPORT OF COMMITTEE. Xlll 

the attendance of witnesses, invited the attendance 
of Mr. Kersey, which he declined to give, stating as 
his reason the objection of those for whom he acted 
in his business. And they made such efforts as they 
could to obtain the other two witnesses, but without 
success. Mr. Young, the pilot, was at sea. Cap- 
tain Parker, of the city of Bridgeport, though 
quite willing to appear, was so engaged as to be 
unable to attend. 



It will be perceived, therefore, that considering 
this case, in the first place, upon the evidence 
introduced on the part of Lord Dunraven alone, 
the only proof in support of the charge it involves, 
consists in the opinions of the witnesses above re- 
ferred to, formed merely by looking at the vessel in 
the water on two successive days, that on the latter 
day she was from an inch and a half to four inches 
lower in the water than on the former. And that 
these opinions were based solely upon the general 
appearance of the vessel as apparent to the eye, and 
upon no measurement or other data whatever by 
which they could be verified, excepting only that a 
pipe hole of about an inch in diameter, which on 
the first day was just at the water's edge, was the 
next day not to be seen. The committee attach no 
importance to the opinions of the witnesses who 
only saw the Defender from a distance of two or 
three hundred yards. There remain therefore but 
three persons, Mr. Glennie, Mr. Ratsey, and Lord 
Dunraven himself, who ever got near enough to the 
Defender to see the pipe hole, even if it had been 
visible. 

It is obvious that a very slight list of the vessel 
to starboard might have made this pipe hole 
visible on the first day, and that a similar list to 
port might have made it invisible on the second, 
quite irrespective of its actual position in reference 
to the load water line. A difference of three or 
four inches in the distance of the bobstay bolt from 



XIV KEPOET OF COMMITTEE. 

the water might, if it existed, have easily occurred 
from a change in the trim of the vessel in conse- 
quence of the presence of the crew and their be- 
longings in the forecastle, or other temporary cause 
bringing her a little down by the head. Lord Dun- 
raven himself says in his publication above quoted, 
that the difference in the height of the bobstay 
bolt above the water might have resulted from an 
alteration in trim. 

The Erie basin where the Defender was observed 
on the first day, is a small entirely closed space 
where the water is practically smooth. On the 
second day the Defender lay inside of Sandy Hook 
in the lower bay of New York, a large body of 
water, open to the ocean for five or six miles on its 
easterly side. Its surface is necessarily at all times 
in motion, and during the night between the two 
days the wind had been blowing heavily. It is 
obvious that the difference in the condition of the 
water in which the Defender lay upon the two days, 
might well have produced a difference of apparent 
immersion. 

The fraud that is involved in the charge thus 
made, if it is found to be true, is a very grave one, 
utterly destructive to the reputation of all who 
should appear to have been concerned in it, and 
especially odious under the circumstances of a 
friendly contest between citizens of different coun- 
tries, exciting international interest, and supposed 
to be conducted by gentlemen, upon a high plane 
of honor and mutual confidence. 

From the magnitude and difficulty of the oper- 
ation necessary to its consummation, it must un- 
avoidably, if it occurred, have been participated in, 
not only by Mr. Iselin and those concerned with 
him in the management of the Defender, but by all 
the officers and crew of that vessel, and many others 
incidentally employed. 

It appeared from the evidence of Mr. Herreshoff, 
the designer of the Defender, confirmed by other 
witnesses, that to have produced an increased im- 



EEPOET OF COMMITTEE. XV 

mersion of one inch on the Defender would have 
required 7135 pounds of additional weight, or about 
three and a quarter long tons ; that to have produced 
such an immersion of three inches would have re- 
quired about nine and three-quarter tons; and an im- 
mersion of four inches, about thirteen tons; and that 
an immersion of one inch would have lengthened the 
]oad- water line eight inches, and in the same pro- 
portion for each additional inch of immersion. If 
such a result was produced, therefore, all the 
weight thus shown to be required must have been 
removed from the vessel before the first measure- 
ment on the 6th, replaced during the night of that 
day, and again removed during the night of the 
7th, in time for the remeasurement on the 8th. And 
this was Lord Dunraven's theory as finally stated 
upon cross-examination. 

Such a fraud should not even be charged without 
due regard, first, to the established character of 
those upon whom the imputation of guilt must 
fall, and, second, to the kind and degree of the evi- 
dence on which it rests. To justify even accusation, 
suspicion must at least be reasonable ; yet upon the 
hearing before the Committee, the evidence above 
summarized (and hereafter appended in full), so 
slight, so extremely liable to mistake, is all that is 
offered in justification of the charge publicly made in 
the London Field. It is not readily to be believed 
that any expert, however skillful, could determine 
by the eye, between one day and another, and under 
circumstances so diverse, a difference so trifling 
in the displacement of a vessel, especially one 
with which his previous acquaintance was 
small. Lord Dunraven himself had the candor to 
say that he did not claim that this evidence, even 
irrespective of anything that was shown to the con- 
trary, established the truth of his charge ; he did 
claim, however, that the omission of the Cup Com- 
mittee either to remeasure the Defender on the 
evening of the race, or to put a representative on 
board to remain during the night, so far prevented 



XVI REPORT OF COMMITTEE. 

the proof or disproof of his claim, as to justify him 
in renewing it after the matter had been revived 
by the Cup Committee's report of October 24th; 
and that point will, therefore, be specially consid- 
ered hereafter. 



But the case was not left to stand upon the evi- 
dence thus far reviewed. 

On the part of Mr. Iselin there was introduced 
the testimony of a large number of witnesses, in- 
cluding, besides his own, that of the designer of the 
Defender, the official measurer, the captain, all the 
officers, and all the crew of the Defender numbering 
thirty in all (excepting five seamen, who were 
shown to be at sea and therefore inaccessible), all 
the gentlemen who were on board the Defender at 
the time of the race, and all other persons, so far as 
the Committee could learn, who had such means 
of observation as enabled them to know any 
facts material to the issue. These witnesses 
were personally present, except thirteen seamen, 
whose testimony was taken by ex parte affidavits. 

By this evidence there was established, to the 
entire satisfaction of the Committee, the facts now 
to be stated. 

The Defender, by her original design, was built 
and intended to sail without any loose ballast 
whatever, all weight thought necessary being in- 
troduced into the keel by a single casting, to the 
amount of about eighty-five tons. This calculation 
was based upon the rule of the New York Yacht 
Club, requiring yachts to sail in such races with 
their tanks, fittings, bulkheads, etc., on board, 
as when prepared for ordinary use. 

During all the sailing of the Defender after her 
completion down to the time of this race, includ- 
ing various trial races with the Vigilant, to deter- 
mine which of those yachts should be entered in 
the competition for the Cup, the Defender had 
sailed without any loose ballast whatever, but with 



REPORT OF COMMITTEE. XVU 

her tanks, fittings, etc., onboard. She was meas- 
ured officially for the trial races on the 31st of Au- 
gust, 1895, and her length on the load water line 
was then found to be 88 T 8 -^- feet. She sailed at this 
length in all races prior to the Cup race now in 
question, when her load water length was found by 
the official measurement of September 6th, to be 
88^q feet, a difference of but four inches and 
eight-tenths of an inch in length, corresponding to 
three-fifths of one inch of immersion. She is a boat 
of unusual stability and power, and all the evi- 
dence, both scientific and practical, was to the effect 
that additional ballast beyond what she originally 
contained was not required, and would certainly 
have diminished rather than improved the speed of 
the boat. Such was the opinion at the time of 
the race of Mr. Herreshoff, the designer, Captain 
Haff, her sailing master, and Mr. Iselin. 

It is plain, therefore, that no motive existed 
for increasing the ballast of the Defender. It 
cannot be supposed that there could have been an 
intention to place the vessel upon a different trim 
from that previously determined by her designer 
and manager to be the best. 

After the arrival of the Valkyrie in the United 
States, it was found that she was stripped of her 
fittings, water tanks, bulkheads, etc., and not in a 
condition to comply with the rule of the New 
York Yacht Club above mentioned. A clause was 
accordingly introduced in the detailed agreement 
for the Cup races, executed on September 4th, 
waiving that rule. 

On the 4th and 5th of September the Defender, 
while at New Rochelle,was stripped, and had all her 
fittings, water tanks, bulkheads, etc., taken out of 
her, which were weighed and found to be about 
seven thousand pounds. Before this material had 
been removed from the upper part of the vessel, 
Mr. Herreshoff and Mr. Iselin had estimated that 
its weight could be efficiently replaced by two tons 
of loose ballast in the hold. Two tons of lead, 



xviii report of committee. 

consisting of forty-two pigs, were therefore ob- 
tained from New York, carried by steamboat to 
New Rochelle, and there put in the hold. The 
weight of the material removed proved, however, 
to be greater than they had anticipated, and 
they accordingly decided to add one ton more 
of lead ballast ; and another ton was thereupon 
sent from New York to the Erie Basin. On 
the 6th of September, the day of the first official 
measurement, at the Erie Basin, and prior to the 
measurement, this ton of lead, consisting of 
twenty-one pigs, was placed temporarily on the 
cabin floor of the Defender, above the place it was 
to occupy in the hold. On the evening of the 
6th of September, the day before the race, it being 
found that this lead could not be stowed in the hold 
without the pigs being cut in two, it was carried 
on to the Hattie Palmer, her tender, which was 
alongside 3 and each of the twenty-one pigs was 
cut in two, carried back again, and stowed in the 
hold of the Defender. 

About five tons of lead ballast were in like man- 
ner put on board the Valkyrie shortly before the 
measurements, some portion of which at the time 
of the first measurement was temporarily placed 
on her cabin floor. 

It was very clearly proved that the Defender 
had not been lightened in any way before the first 
official measurement on the 6th of September, except 
by the. taking out of the tanks, fittings, &c, above 
mentioned (the weight of which had been replaced 
by lead ballast to the extent indicated), and by the 
substitution of a steel boom and gaff for the wooden 
spars .theretofore in use. Nor was any other 
ballast', or weight, of any description, put upon 
the Defender after the official measurement of 
the 6th of September and before the race on the 
7th, or taken out of her after the race on the 7th 
and before the remeasurement on the 8th. 

There were no tanks left in the boat into which 
water could have been introduced as ballast, and 



KEP0RT OF COMMITTEE. XIX 

the hold was examined and fonnd to be dry, imme- 
diately before and during the race. Lord Dunraven 
admitted that water could not have been used as bal- 
last without tanks to contain it. After the De- 
fender's bulkheads were removed at NewRochelle, 
she was open from stem to stern, so that no ballast 
conld have been concealed. Mr. Iselin personally 
examined the hold before the measurement on Sep- 
tember 6th. Immediately before the race on Sep- 
tember 7th both Mr. Iselin and Mr. Herreshoff ex- 
amined the hold again to see how the twenty-one 
pigs had been stowed the night before, and the 
condition of the hold as to water. No bal- 
last of any kind, to any material amount, could 
possibly have been put on board or taken off the 
Defender, as the Committee believe, without the 
knowledge of all the officers and crew, and of Mr. 
Iselin and his guests. 

The work referred to by Lord Dunraven as done 
on board the Defender the night before the race, was 
the moving and cutting and replacing of the lead 
before-mentioned ; and likewise work done by a 
party of riggers, in fitting new wire ropes forming 
bridles for the main sheet blocks — several riggers 
from New York, as well as the officers and crew of the 
Defender, testifying before the Committee that they 
were engaged on such work that night, and that it 
lasted until three o' clock in the morning, and was 
of a nature to make considerable noise. The Hattie 
Palmer after lying a short time alongside, left the 
Defender for the night before ten o'clock both on 
that evening and the next, and did not return to the 
Defender on either night. 

In respect to the pipe hole on the port side of the 
Defender, noticed by Lord Dunraven at the time of 
the measurement the day before the race, and which 
proved to be the discharge of the bilge pump, it was 
shown by a careful measurement and survey made 



XX REPORT OF COMMITTEE. 

by Mr. DeLuze, a civil engineer experienced in such 
work, assisted by Mr. Hyslop, the official measurer, 
and testified to by them, that when the vessel lay in 
still water, trimmed and ballasted as she was on 
September 8th, the discharge hole would not be 
visible, being entirely below the load-water line 
as defined by the external marks affixed on that 
day, as above stated ; and this was shown upon a 
drawing prepared by Mr. DeLuze. 

This hole was not, as thought by Lord Dunraven 
and his witnesses, about an inch in diameter, but 
was two and one eighth inches in diameter. 

It is not disputed that the Defender was in sub- 
stantially the same trim and the same degree of 
immersion on both the sixth and eighth of Septem- 
ber. And Mr. Hyslop testified positively that the 
marks which had been painted on the Defender in 
his presence by Mr. Watson were still visible at the 
time of the hearing before the Committee, iden- 
tically as they had been put on. 

The Committee had no reason to doubt the ac- 
curacy of these measurements, or the correctness of 
the evidence in respect to them. But they deemed 
it most important that it should be settled beyond 
any possible question, whether the discharge hole 
of the bilge pump was or was not visible above the 
load water line, if the vessel was upon an even keel. 
At the request of the Committee, therefore, Cap- 
tain Mahan kindly undertook to make a further 
examination of the Defender, now tying at New 
Rochelle, with reference to this point. He made 
a visit to the yacht in company with Mr. Iselin 
and Mr. Askwith, but found that under the uncer- 
tain weather conditions prevalent at this season, a 
measurement direct from the water surface was 
scarcely practicable, and recommended that the 
matter in question should be settled by measure- 
ments starting from points of origin within the 
yacht herself. He therefore obtained from the 
Brooklyn Navy Yard, through the kindness of 



REPORT OF COMMITTEE. XXI 

Naval Constrnctor Bowles, the services of Mr. Hibbs, 
an Assistant Naval Constructor in the United States 
Navy, who, without being apprised of the result 
reached by Mr. DeLuze and Mr. Hyslop, or seeing 
the drawings, went to New Rochelle and made a 
careful measurement of the location of the bilge 
pump discharge in reference to the load water line 
as marked on the Defender externally by Mr. 
Watson. 

The request made to Constructor Bowles for the 
Committee, was as follows : 

The Committee would like to have accur- 
ately determined by measurement, the exact 
position of the bilge pump hole on the port 
side of the yacht Defender, indicated in plan 
submitted, so as to show conclusively the ver- 
tical distance of the lower rim of the hole from 
the racing water line ; two points of that line 
being shown at the lower edge of the red disk 
and of the mark on the stem. 

These two marks were placed by the meas- 
urer when yacht was in racing trim, and on 
even keel. 

Committee would also like to know the 
vertical drop of said hole, corresponding to 1°, 
2°, and 3°, of list to port. 

Also, would noticeable trimming by the 
head be produced by shirting thirty men — say 
two tons — from centre of gravity to the men's 
berthing quarters ? 

N. B. — Note if red marks are of some 
standing. 

(Signed) A. T. Mahan. 

Mr. Hibbs reported in writing to Constructor 
Bowles, by whom the report was trans- 
mitted to the Committee through Capt. Mahan, 
that the lower edge of the discharge hole was 
2J§ inches below the load water line, thus 
confirming the accuracy of the previous measure- 
ments by Mr. De Luzeand Mr. Hyslop. Mr. Hibbs 
followed a different method of measurement from 
that adopted by the others ; for he ascertained the 
position of the bilge pump hole entirely by measure- 



XX11 EEPORT OF COMMITTEE. 

ments starting from within the yacht herself and not 
from the water. It follows, therefore, as a mathe- 
matical certainty, that upon an even keel, in the 
Erie Basin, this discharge hole would have been be- 
low the level of the water . 

By further experiments made at the same time, 
Mr. Hibbs also ascertained, that 

1. A weight of two tons moved from a position 
amidships through a distance of 13.75 feetathwart- 
ships, would incline the Defender one degree, and 
would drop the discharge hole two and a quarter 
inches. 

2. That a weight of ^ve tons similarly moved 
through eleven feet would incline her two degrees, 
and would drop the discharge hole four and a half 
inches. 

3. That a weight of ten tons similarly moved 
through a distance of 7.25 feet, would incline her 
three degrees, and would drop the discharge hole 
six and three-quarter inches. 

4. A weight of two tons was moved from the 
center of gravity of the water plane, forward on the 
middle line to the horizontal position of the center 
of gravity of the crew's berthing quarters, a distance 
of thirty- two feet six inches. The change of trim 
thereby occasioned on the water line was as fol- 
lows : 

Forward, 2J inches down. 

Aft, 2 inches up. 

Mr. Hibbs further stated that he carefully ex- 
amined the paint marks on the stem and side of 
the Defender, and that it was evident that they 
were of some standing. 

The proof showed, that as the vessel lay in 
the Erie Basin just before the official measure- 
ment on the 6th of September, she had a slight 
list to starboard, probably occasioned by the 
movement of the crew to that side of the vessel be- 
fore they were put in position amidships for that 



REPORT OF COMMITTEE. XX111 

measurement. And it was further shown that the 
quarters of the crew were in the forecastle ; that 
their cots, bedding, &c, there, were of the weight 
of about forty pounds to each man ; that those 
cots, &c, were taken out before the race and trans- 
ferred to the Hattie Palmer, and returned to the 
Defender after the race ; and that their presence 
on board at the time she was seen bv Lord Dun- 
raven and his witnesses early on the morning of 
the 7th, or the congregating of the crew forward 
for any reason, might have brought the vessel a 
little down by the head, as shown by the experi- 
ments of Constructor Hibbs, and so have brought 
the bobstay bolt nearer the water. 

On the occasion of Lord Dunraven's coming 
alongside the Defender in his gig, there was a gen- 
eral and perfectly natural movement of nearly 
everyone on board, to that side of the yacht. 



If, as Lord Dunraven suspected, the Defender 
had entered upon the race of September 7th with 
her racing line increased by the addition of ballast 
after the measurement of September 6th, she would 
have been violating the rules of the N. Y. Yacht 
Club, under which the race was sailed, one of which 
is as follows : 

If any yacht, by alteration of trim, or im- 
mersion by dead weight, increase her L. W. L. 
length, or in any way increase her spar measure- 
ments as officially taken, she must obtain a 
remeasurement. 

This rule is specifically reproduced in the special 
agreement of September 4th governing the Cup 
Races. 

Lord Dunraven did not make any written or 
other communication to the Cup Committee or to 
Mr. Iselin on the subject of the increased immer- 
sion of the Defender, except that made to the Com- 
mittee through Mr. Fish. 



XXIV REPORT OF COMMITTEE. 

The rule of the New York Yacht Club on the 
subject of protests for violation of the rules of a 
race is as follows : 

A yacht having cause during a race to pro- 
test against any other yacht for a violation of 
these rules, shall display flag B of the club 
signal code, which shall be known as the Pro- 
test Flag, and keep such flag flying till an- 
swered from the judge's boat, by the answering 
pennant. A protest must be supplemented by 
a written statement of the facts, which must 
be sent to the Regatta Committee before 6 p. 
m . of the day following the race. 

Lord Dunraven did not raise his flag, as required 
by this rule, nor make any protest at all against 
the Defender on that race. 



"With reference to the suggestion of Lord Dun- 
raven that the omission of the Cup Committee to 
remeasure the Defender on the same day of the 
race, or to put a representative on board of her 
to remain during the night, justified his suspicion 
that her displacement had been tampered with be- 
tween the race and the remeasurement on the fol- 
lowing day, a few words should be said. 

It has already been pointed out that a remeasure- 
ment of the Defender after the race and on the same 
day was impossible, because the Erie Basin, where 
alone it could take place, was too far distant 
to be reached until too dark to make it ; 
and that Lord Dunraven was so informed by Mr. 
Fish when the request was made. It was fully 
proved that such a measurement could not be made 
by artificial light. The remeasurement that took 
place on the next day (Sunday) at 10 o'clock in 
the morning, was therefore the earliest possible. 

In regard to the request, which Lord Dunraven 
states that he made to Mr. Fish for transmis- 
sion to the Cup Committee, namely, that each of 
the two yachts should be taken into the charge of 



REPORT OF COMMITTEE. XXV 

the Committee for that night, it is conclusively 
shown that no such request reached the Committee. 

Mr. Fish denies that any such request was in- 
cluded in the message with which he was charged. 
That he did not understand that it was in- 
cluded, is shown by the fact that in delivering the 
message a few hours afterwards, gravely impressed 
as he says with its importance, he made no mention 
to the Committee of such a request. 

It further appears that a memorandum of the 
message sent w r as made by Mr. Fish in writing, 
which was produced and put in evidence, and 
contains no allusion to the request in question. 
Mr. Fish testifies that he made this memoran- 
dum in Lord Dunraven's presence, because unwill- 
ing to trust his own memory, and in order to be 
sure that it should be accurately conveyed ; that he 
read it over to Lord Dunraven, who suggested a cor- 
rection, which was interlined ; and that this memo- 
randum contained the whole message as given to 
him, and as delivered by him. Lord Dunraven 
remembers that some memorandum was made by 
Mr. Fish at the time, concerning this message, but 
does not recollect that he himself suggested any cor- 
rection. But even upon his own recollection of 
the facts, the written memorandum seems strongly 
to confirm Mr. Fish's statement. 

It is testified by the Cup Committee that the 
memorandum was delivered to them by Mr. Fish 
as the message he had received, and it is clear 
that it was acted upon by them as such, and that 
the publication by Lord Dunraven in the Field 
was the first knowledge that Committee had of any 
alleged request that they should take charge of the 
vessels pending remeasurement. It is also to be 
observed that Lord Dunraven in his letter to Mr. 
Kersey of September 27th makes no mention of such 
request; for all he there says is, U I don't know 
whether Fish ever told the Committee I wished the 
ships measured immediately after the race." 

It was shown that the message from Lord 



XXVI REPORT OF COMMITTEE. 

Dnnraven as to the increased immersion of the 
Defender, and the reason for his request for a 
remeasurement of the Defender, were not communi- 
cated to Mr. Iselin by Mr. Fish or by the Cup Com- 
mittee, and did not come to his knowledge till long 
afterwards. 

It has not been suggested that the members of 
the Cup Committee, or any of them, were or could 
have been parties to any tampering with the water 
line of the Defender. The complaint of Lord Dun- 
raven, made through Mr. Fish, was not stated in 
such terms as to suggest to them, in the absence of 
any definite request, that they ought to put a rep- 
resentative on board the Defender that night. This 
is apparent from Lord Dunraven's own statement 
of it in his publication in the Field. The Com- 
mittee have not been referred to any precedent for 
such action, nor to any rule of any yacht club in 
which such a remedy has been provided for. It 
necessarily implied distrust of all persons con- 
nected with the management of the Defender, and 
from their knowledge of these gentlemen it would 
doubtless never have occurred to the Cup Com- 
mittee unless specially demanded. 

But whether the Cup Committee should of their 
own motion, upon the suggestion that was in fact 
conveyed to them by oral message from Lord Dun- 
raven, have taken that step as a matter of precau- 
tion, becomes now in the present case totally im- 
material to consider, because, as has been shown, 
the evidence is conclusive that nothing did take 
place, or under the circumstances could possibly 
have taken place on board the Defender that night, 
tending to support the charge made by Lord Dun- 
raven. A representative of the Cup Committee, 
if he had been on board, could therefore have dis- 
covered nothing, and prevented nothing. 



The only other circumstance that the Committee 
deem it material to allude to, is the omission by the 



REPORT OF COMMITTEE. XXV11 

Cup Committee, until after the first race, to cause 
the load water length of the competing yachts to be 
marked externally on the vessels. 

This was indicated on both yachts by the 
measurer at the time of the official measurement, 
by means of copper tacks placed in the decks. 
That these marks were accurate is not questioned. 
This method of marking the water line length was 
in accordance with the uniform practice of the New 
York Yacht Club. 

At the last race for the America's Cup, which took 
place in 1893, and in which a yacht belonging to 
Lord Dunraven took part, the load water length 
was so marked, and without objection by him. 

On the present occasion, the first request made 
by Lord Dunraven for an external marking was 
contained in a note dated September 6th, 1895, 
the very day upon which the boats were to be 
measured, addressed to Mr. Canfield, the Secre- 
tary of the Cup Committee. That Committee with- 
out delay convened a meeting and acted favorably 
upon the request, provided Mr. Iselin consented ; 
his consent being necessary to any modification of 
the terms of the agreement. He at once assented, 
and within a few hours after the receipt of Lord 
Dunraven' s request the Committee had sent a sub- 
committee to the Erie Basin where the boats were 
to be measured, to see that they were marked ex- 
ternally as requested by Lord Dunraven. 

But the Valkyrie had already been measured, and 
had left the Basin, and could not return on ac- 
count of the tide. It was therefore arranged 
that the marking should take place on the 8th 
of September, the day following the first race. 
And the measurer was ordered to preserve the bat- 
ten used in the first measurement, and to take 
steps to make sure that the yachts should be 
at the same point of immersion. 

It is apparent, therefore, that the reason why the 
external marking was not made until after the first 
race had been sailed, was because Lord Dunraven 



XX Vlll REPORT OF COMMITTEE. 

was so late in his request for a method of marking 
not customary and not provided for in the 
agreement for the race, that it was impossible 
that it should be had any sooner. 

Lord Dunraven must be in error in his recollec- 
tion that in his conversation with Mr. Fish, he de- 
manded, and as a result, secured, the external 
marking of the boats. And the suggestion that 
Lord Dunraven had repeatedly asked to have the 
vessels marked externally before the first race, is 
not sustained by any evidence. 



It is very much to be regretted that, if Lord 
Dunraven' s suspicions were not dispelled at the 
time of the remeasurement of the Defender on the 
8th of September, he did not say so then, instead 
of accepting in silence the result which verified the 
previous measurement. The remeasurement was 
the Committee's response to the communication 
which they had received through Mr. Fish. In 
connection with their knowledge of the circum- 
stances, which made it impossible that the im- 
puted fraud couJd have been perpetrated without 
Mr. Iselin's concurrence, and their knowledge of 
Mr. Iselin, it satisfied them ; and, as we have seen, 
it justly satisfied them. 

To all appearance it satisfied Lord Dunraven. 
He was present at the remeasurement, and met 
there the members of the Committee and Mr. Iselin. 
He made no request for further action. He made 
no objection to proceeding without further action. 
He made no inquiry as to how or how fully his oral 
message through Mr. Fish had been delivered, and 
no suggestion that any request which he supposed 
to have been contained in that message had not 
been complied with. 

He sailed the next race in the series that had 
been agreed on without protest or objection on ac- 
count of the change which he had told Mr. Fish 



REPORT OF COMMITTEE. XXIX 

lie believed to have been made in the load water 
line of the Defender before the first race. And he 
testified that his belief that such a change had oc- 
curred did not influence him in his final withdrawal 
from the match at the third race. The Cup Com- 
mittee seems to have been warranted in supposing 
that Lord Dunraven' s suspicions were allayed, and 
that no further steps were necessary to settle any 
question of fact or to vindicate any one's reputation. 



Upon a careful consideration of the whole case, 
the Committee are unanimously of the opinion that 
the charge made by Lord Dunraven, and which has 
been the subject of this investigation, had its origin 
in mistake ; that it is not only not sustained by 
evidence, but is completely disproved ; and that 
all the circumstances indicated by him as giving 
rise to his suspicion, are entirely and satisfactorily 
explained. They deem it, therefore, but just to Mr. 
Iselin and the gentlemen concerned with him, as 
well as to the officers and crew of the Defender, 
that the Committee should express emphatically 
their conviction, that nothing whatever occurred 
in connection with the race in question, that casts 
the least suspicion upon the integrity or propriety 
of their conduct. 

And the committee are not willing to doubt, that 
if Lord Dunraven had remained present through- 
out the investigation, so as to have heard all the 
evidence that was introduced, he would of his own 
motion have withdrawn a charge that was so 
plainly founded upon mistake, and that has been 
so unfortunate in the publicity it has attained, 
and the feeling to which it has given rise. 



The Committee append a full stenographic report, 
revised by the counsel on both sides, of all 
the evidence laid before them, and of all the 
proceedings on the hearing, and likewise copies 



XXX REPORT OF COMMITTEE. 

of all the documents and papers introduced on 
either side, as considered by the Committee. 

And they ask to be discharged from further con- 
sideration of the subject referred to them. 



The Committee cannot take leave of the case 
without expressing their regret that a part of the 
evidence now annexed should have been surrepti- 
tiously obtained by a New York newspaper owned 
by one of the oldest members of the Club, and 
published with comments very adverse to one of 
the parties, on the morning of the 20th of January. 
They had deemed it important, under the pecu- 
liarly delicate circumstances of this case, and the 
interest it had excited both in England and the 
United States, that no part of their proceedings 
should be laid before the public, or become the 
subject of discussion, until the whole evidence 
and their conclusions upon it, could be made known 
in both countries. Their request to this effect was 
so obvious in its propriety that it was most honor- 
ably observed by all the many persons who had ac- 
cess, in a greater or less degree, to the proceed- 
ings of the Committee. It was therefore in spite of 
the Committee's efforts, in opposition to their well 
understood wishes, and in disregard of the best in- 
terests of the Yacht Club, that this premature and 
imperfect publication was made. 



January 21, 1896. 



E. J. Phelps, 

J. Pierpont Morgan, 

W. C. Whitney, 

A. T. Ma han, 

G. L. Rives. 



proceebings on tbe £yamination 
of Wlitneaeea 



New York, 
Friday, December 27th, 1895. 



The Committee met at 10 a.m. in the Model 
Room of the Club House at 67 Madisou Avenue. 

Present : 

Hon. E. J. Phelps, Chairman. 
Mr. J. Pierpont Morgan. 
Hon. William C. Whitney. 
Captain Alfred T. Mahan. 
Mr. George L. Rives. 

Also present : 

The Earl of Dunraven, accompanied by his 

counsel, Mr. G. R. Askwith. 
Mr. C. Oliver Iselin, accompanied by his 

counsel, Mr. Joseph H. Choate. 

The Chairman : Gentlemen : The resolution un- 
der which this Committee has been appointed, 
adopted at a meeting of The New York Yacht Club 
on the 18th November, is this : 

" Whereas, The London Field has lately made 
public certain charges purporting to have been 
made by the Earl of Dunraven in reference to the 
recent America Cup Races, sailed under the chal- 
lenge of the Royal Yacht Squadron, and 

u Whereas, This Club is of opinion that not- 
withstanding the extraordinary conduct of the Earl 
of Dunraven in respect to the time and manner of 
making such charges, it is due to its honor and 
dignity that suitable action should be taken in re- 
lation thereto ; 



" Resolved, That Messrs. J. Pierpont Morgan, 
William C. Whitney and George L. Rives, are 
hereby appointed a Committee, with power, in their 
discretion, to add to their number, to whom the 
matter of said charges is hereby referred ; and that 
such Committee shall have full power to represent 
this Club in reference to the matter, and to take, 
on behalf of the Club, and its name, any action 
which may seem to them proper in the premises." 

Under the power coDf erred by that resolution,, 
the Committee originally appointed have invited 
Captain Mahan of the Navy and myself to sit with 
them. 

It is hardly necessary to state, but I am de- 
sired by the Committee to say, that t they pro- 
pose to confine the inquiry strictly to the subject 
embraced in the resolution. Beyond that they are 
entrusted with no duty and with no authority. On 
that point — that is, the truth of the charges that 
are understood to have been made by Lord Dun- 
raven — the Committee will be glad to hear any- 
thing upon either side that is pertinent. 

The Committee is not authorized, under the laws 
of this State, to administer oaths, and therefore the 
testimony will have to be taken — so far as it is 
taken here — without being under oath ; and, while 
we shall be guided by the general principles of 
the law of evidence, we shall not feel bound to 
enforce strict legal rules, but shall feel at liberty 
to hear anything that the Committee deem they 
ought to hear, that may be offered on the one side 
or the other. 

The affirmative of this proposition being upon 
Lord Dunraven, we shall expect first to hear from 
him. Before that, if any gentleman has any sug- 
gestion to make in respect to the procedure before 
the Committee, we shall be happy to hear him. 

I am desired further to add, that it is the intention 
of the Committee that its sessions shall be private, 
and it is particularly desired that no part of the 



proceedings here shall be given ont to the public, 
or to the press, until the conclusion of the inquiry. 
The testimony will all be taken down and when a 
decision is reached the whole testimony will be 
given to the public ; but in the meantime, it is 
thought' very desirable that it should not go out 
by piecemeal to be discussed in the newspapers, 
and perhaps mis-stated. 

Mr. Askwith : I am here to assist Lord Dunraven 
in this inquiry, and it is proposed that, if Lord 
Dunraven has to return to England on account of 
important engagements taking him back there be- 
fore the conclusion of this inquiry, that I should 
remain as his representative during the remainder 
of it. And it appears that before Lord Dunraven 
gives evidence in the matter, it might be a 
useful procedure if, on his behalf, I made a short, 
plain statement of the position that he takes in 
the matter, to show what he desires to do to assist 
the inquiry. 

The Chairman : We shall be glad to hear it. 

Mr. AsJcwith : I think it might be of advantage 
if I gave to the Commissioners a copy of the 
pamphlet in question, upon which this inquiry is 
made. 

Mr. Choate: This is not new at all? This is 
an authentic reproduction of the article in the 
Field? 

Mr. AsJcwith : That is the pamphlet that Lord 
Dunraven published. 

Mr. Choate : What is referred to in the resolu- 
tion as published in the London Field f 

Mr. Askwith : An advance proof of that copy 
was sent to the Field. 

Mr. Choate : Are there any material changes? 

Mr. Askwith : None whatever. Lord Dunraven 
has nothing to do with any comments that may be 
made by the editor of the article in question. 

There have been various newspaper reports that 
investigation of the charges had begun. I under- 



stand from what the Chairman of the Commission 
says, that that is not at all the case ; that the Com- 
mission really is only beginning to-day, have made 
no former inquiries, and that it is commencing with 
the evidence of Lord Dunraven. 

Tli e Chairman : Commencing now. There has 
been no previous inquiry by the Committee. 

Mr. AsJcwith: I shall make this statement as 
short as I can, under the circumstances. 

The position that Lord Dnnraven desires to take 
up is very simple. That is that these charges, or 
alleged charges, are no new matter. It is but a re- 
iteration of statements that were made by him as 
long ago as September 7th ; that were published 
subsequently to that date, before this pamphlet 
appeared in the Field, and that the opportunity of 
investigating the truth of whether the Defender, 
upon September 7th, was upon a longer load water- 
line than when she was measured in the progress of 
the races, was a matter which could only be proved 
or disproved at the time when Lord Dnnraven asked 
that the inquiry should be made, and when in- 
quiry was not granted. He is now in the position 
of being called upon, at a time when lie has most 
definitely stated that it is not possible for him to 
adduce proper proof, or when an inquiry into the 
truth cannot clearly and well be made of the mat- 
ter which he desired to be investigated at the 
time when he first made the statement. He has now 
come, with great personal inconvenience, offering 
by telegram, directly he heard that this inquiry was 
to be made, to give all assistance he can to the Com- 
mittee in the inquiry they are going to make, and 
he is here now to do so. He is also here to answer 
what he considers to be an extraordinary attack 
made upon him for the reiteration of statements 
that he had made previously, at a time when he 
had left the country and real I \ was unable to be 
present and answer. And also, he desires most em- 
phatically to protest against the manner in which 



these statements have been mixed up with a sup- 
posed attack upon the American people, an appeal 
to patriotism, and suggestions of that character, 
which can only have the effect of preventing evi- 
dence that might be forthcoming on the part, per- 
haps, of any American citizens being possible to be 
brought clearly before this inquiry. At the time 
when the publication in the Field first reached 
America, there was an outburst of feeling which is 
perhaps extraordinary. At any rate it is extraor- 
dinary from his point of view, because he had felt 
that he was merely re-stating, as I said before, re- 
marks which he had made on several occasions 
before. He resents strongly the imputation, al- 
though he cares nothing whatsoever for the per- 
sonal insults that may be heaped upon him in the 
newspapers, but he resents strongly the imputation 
that he has made any charge behind any man's 
back, or that he has desired, or indeed done, any- 
thing to insult a people, for whom he has always 
had great feelings of respect, and whose country he 
is now^visiting, I believe, for the thirty-third time. 
His object in making these statements was, as far 
as possible, to support the best interest of yacht 
racing, and to point out clearly and plainly what he 
considered to be the incompetence on various occa- 
sions, of the Committee that had to deal with the 
races that took place in September last. 

Well, gentlemen, it is rather important I think 
that we should consider what were the exact words 
upon this matter that Lord Dunraven did say, and 
why he said them. It has been for a long time 
one of the things to which he has paid great atten- 
tion, in the course of his yacht-racing experience, 
to have rules clearly laid down for the conduct of 
yacht racing. It is to his mind as important that 
yacht racing should be conducted under strict rules 
as racing upon the turf, and that every precaution 
should be taken in yacht racing that no oppor- 
tunity, in the interest of the public, should be 



6 



given for wrong dealing, or any evasion of rules. 
It is in the interest, not only of the competitors in 
a race of this kind ; but it is also in the interest of 
the public generally that they should feel that 
they are bound by rules which are so stringent 
that evasion is impossible. And, in the course 
of the last two years, the rules, that have been 
adopted in America, are themselves a proof that 
the matter which he has so earnestly advocated, 
has been believed to be a proper matter to be taken 
up by important clubs who are interested in yacht 
racing. Prior to the race which actually took 
place on September 7th, this question of the meas- 
urement of yachts had been the subject of consid- 
erable correspondence which had passed between 
Lord Dud raven and the members who were repre- 
senting this Yacht Club. As long ago as October 
25th, 1894, I find in a letter from Lord Dunraven 
to Mr. Oddie, that he desires that the terms and 
conditions which have governed the Vigilant and 
Valkyrie matches should be modified. He writes 
as follows : 

' ' The terms and conditions governing the Vigi- 
lant-Valkyrie matches would be quite satisfac- 
tory to me, with the following modifications : 

"First. — As by length on the L. W. L. is ob- 
viously meant length on which a vessel sails, I 
think yachts should be measured with all the 
weights on board, dead and alive, which they in- 
tend to carry during a race and should be marked ; 
that no alterations should be made in the amount 
of those weights and no ballast trimmed without 
notice given to the Sailing Committee not less than 
24 hours before a race ; that the Committee should 
be entitled to take any steps they may think fit to 
ascertain that the vessels do not, when racing, 
exceed their measured length, and that a limit — a 
generous one — to the number of persons on board, 
should be fixed according to L. W. L. length or 
rating." 



Now that letter, and many other letters that 
subsequently passed, shows that Lord Dunraven 
knew well that it would be most important to 
make more stringent rules upon the measurement, 
in order to prevent any evasion, and in order to 
insure that vessels should sail upon their proper 
water-line length. 

Upon November 15th, 1894, an answer came from 
Mr. Smith, in which he says, "as to that portion 
or paragraph of your letter marked first, relating 
to limiting the live weight and measurement with 
all weights on board, the Committee are unanimous 
in its favor and will recommend it to the Club ; in 
fact, the propriety of adopting some such regula- 
tions has for some time past been under discussion 
by a Committee on the Racing Rules. 

' ' The other points of this paragraph we think 
you will find already practically provided for by 
referring to page 30 of the report of last year's 
match, copy enclosed, under supplementary and 
final conditions." 

The correspondence went on by letter on Decem- 
ber 1st, 1894, in which Lord Dunraven replied to 
Mr. Smith and said: "I am glad to find, as I ex- 
pected, that on the question of measurement and 
weights we are in complete accord. The supple- 
mentary conditions set out on page 30 of the re- 
port of the America's Cup Committee to the New 
York Yacht Club are not, I think, quite satis- 
factory ; but the points involved are merely details 
which can easily be settled by further correspond- 
ence, or after my arrival." 

On January 14th Mr. Smith replied to that, and 
said: 

" We strongly recommend, unless you specially 
desire otherwise, that any other question be left 
until your arrival in this country." 

Therefore, in January, 1895, the question of 
measurement having been raised by Lord Dunraven, 
some suggestions that he made having been ac- 



ceded to, any further details were left over until 
his arrival in the Autumn of this year. 

At a meeting of the Cup Committee, which took 
place on August 30th, these matters were discussed, 
Lord Dunraven being present, and then, for the 
first time, he heard that the custom of the New 
York Yacht Club was that no mark should be 
placed upon the side of the vessels, but that a 
copper tack should be placed upon the deck to 
mark the load water line. It might just as well 
have been placed on a blackboard in the centre of 
the boat, for all the effect it would have for show- 
ing how the vessel lay upon the water. Well, 
Lord Dunraven said that if that was the custom of 
the Club, he did not wish to interfere with it, 
although I believe he expressed his opinion that it 
was a most important matter, and that it was a 
pity that this procedure should be the only one 
governing the course of marking the load water 
line. 

On September 4th the agreement between the 
Valkyrie and Defender for the sailing of the races 
was brought before him, and subsequently another 
suggestion was made that Mr. Iselin, on behalf of 
the Defender, desired that a week day should in- 
tervene between the races. Lord Dunraven, on 
that occnrring, wrote, on September 5th or 6th — 
the date seems to be rather doubtful — a letter, in 
which he refers io the marking — a letter following 
another written upon September 5th, the first one, 
September 5th, appearing at page 85 of the report 
to the New York Yacht Club. The letter, which 
is here dated September 6th, in Lord Dunraveu's 
pamphlet is dated September 5th, It occurs on 
page 36, and is evidently following upon the 
previous one : 

"DEAB Mk. Oanfisld : I have received your 
Letter notifying me of the alteration of dates. That 
question having been reopened, 1 wish to call your 



9 

attention to another matter which, on reflection, I 
do not consider satisfactory. 

" This contest may possibly extend over a period 
of ten days or a fortnight. It is obvious that 
alterations in the L. W. L. length of a vessel may, 
under present conditions, be made without an 
owner's knowledge, and without possibility of de- 
tection." 

I may remark that there again Lord Dunraven 
shows that, according to his experience as a yachts- 
man, and according to notoriety, there had been 
instances in which yacht racing had not been 
conducted upon perfectly clear and clean lines. 
And upon that point, too, he objects to it being 
suggested that this statement that he made upon 
the evening of September 5th was so utterly pre- 
posterous and absurd that there could not be any- 
thing in it, or that it was a matter which was 
so utterly unknown in the history of the world. 

" It is, of course, impossible, to guard absolutely 
against such an occurrence. But these contests 
cannot be compared with ordinary races ; and in 
the interest of the public, and of the owners who 
have to do their best to see that rules are obeyed, 
it is surely right and necessary that the Cup Com- 
mittee should take every precaution to see that 
the vessels sail on their measured L. W. L. length. 

" For this reason I request that the measurer be 
instructed to mark each vessel's measured L. W. L. 
length on the stem and stern, and to take any 
steps that he or the Committee think advisable by 
re-measurement at any time, or any other means, 
to ascertain that the L. W. L. length as measured 
is not exceeded in sailing. To mark the vessels 
is a perfectly simple matter — a scratch with a iile 
or chisel and a distinct paint mark would suffice." 

Then he goes on upon another matter. No 
written answer was sent to that letter. The Com- 
mittee, or rather Mr. Canfield, received it, but it 



10 



was not acknowledged in a written document, and 
apparently the Committee did not take any par- 
ticular notice of it. Lord Dunraven's remembrance 
is that he met Mr. Smith upon, I think, September 
6th, and that Mr. Smith, when informing him of 
the arrangement which had been come to with re- 
gard to a week day intervening between the races, 
and being asked as to this question of the load 
water line, told him that the Committee had decided 
to take no further steps in the matter. 

Well, so it stood upon September 5th. All this 
care that Lord Dunraven had taken upon the 
question of the load water line showed that Lord 
Dunraven had no preconceived idea that the load 
water line would necessarily be exceeded in a race, 
but what he desired was that in an important race 
of this kind every care should be taken that the 
load water line was not exceeded, and that, as in 
horse racing, a jockey, after he has ridden his race, 
is most carefully guarded and looked after until 
the weighing has taken place, so the same proced- 
ure should be followed with regard to yachts. And 
as to his being guided in anything that he did 
subsequently by any preconceived notion that he 
intended to say that the load water line was longer, 
that fact will be shown not to exist, because Lord 
Dunraven was not the person on board the City of 
Bridgeport the tender of the Valkyrie, or the 
Valkyrie, who, on the morning of September 7th, 
first saAv that the Defender was, as he stated, and 
as he still states, lower in the water than she was at 
the time when she was measured, but Mr. Glennie, 
who is here to-day, and will give evidence before you 
to show that he saw it ; that he went and informed 
other persons upon the boat ; that they went and 
examined the Defender; that they then in- 
formed Lord Dunraven ; that Lord Dunraven him- 
self also went and examined the boat; and that 
upon what they saw, they, independently and to- 
gether, formed the strong opinion, to which they 



11 



still steadfastly adhere, that the boat on September 
7th was lower in the water than at the time when 
she was measured. 

Now the actual facts which he will tell to you 
are his justification for the statement that he made 
on September 7th. He felt very strongly that this 
was a matter which it was his duty to complain 
about, and he did so complain. The boat, after he 
had seen what he will detail to you, almost immedi- 
ately afterwards proceeded to the starting point. 
The representative of the Defender, Mr. Latham 
Fish, came on board the Valkyrie. As soon as Mr. 
Latham Fish came on board the Valkyrie, Lord 
Dunraven told him that he desired to speak to him 
upon a matter of grave importance, and what he 
said is detailed, according to Lord Dunraven' s ac- 
count, on pages 8 and 9 of the pamphlet, beginning 
at the top of page 8 : 

' ' On Saturday morning, early, my attention was 
drawn by those on board the City of Bridgeport, 
including representatives of her American crew, to 
the fact that Defender was visibly deeper in the 
water than when measured. She so appeared to 
me ; but as her tender was alongside and engaged, 
apparently, in taking material out of her, it was 
impossible to form a definite opinion at that time. 

"When I put Mr. Henderson, my representa- 
tive, on board Defender about 9 a.m., after the 
Hattie Palmer had left her, I felt perfectly certain 
that Defender was immersed deeper than when 
measured. Not only was her bobstay bolt nearer 
the water, which might have been the result of alter- 
ation of trim ; but, judging by the line of bronze 
plating, and by the fact that a pipe amidships 
which was flush with the water when measured, 
was nowhere visible, she was, in my deliberate 
opinion, floating about 4 inches deeper in the water 
than when measured. 

" I was reluctant to make a formal complaint to 
the Cup Committee on a matter which it was, of 



12 



course, impossible for me to verify ; and in any case 
nothing conld be done before the race was started ; 
but as soon as Mr. Latham Fish, a member of 
the Committee, came on board Valkyrie as De- 
fender's representative, and before the race was 
started, I stated the whole case to him ; told him I 
thought that some mistake had been made, and that 
all the weight put into Defender, after measure- 
ment, had not been taken out before the race ; that 
I was positively certain she was sailing at least a 
foot beyond her proper length, and I requested him 
to take the earliest opportunity of mentioning the 
matter to the Committee. Mr. Fish asked me what 
suggestion I could make, and I replied to the effect 
that I wished the Committee to put one of their 
members, or some reliable representative, on board 
of each yacht immediately after the race, and to 
have both vessels remeasured, if possible, that 
evening. If that were impossible, then that the 
members of the Committee, or their representatives, 
should stay on board in charge of the vessels until 
they were measured ; that the L. W. L. should be 
marked on both vessels externally in such a way as 
to be plainly visible, and that the Committee should 
take any other steps they thought desirable to in- 
sure that the yachts should not exceed their 
L. W. L. length when racing. 

"I put Mr. Fish on board the Committee boat 
immediately after the race. No action was taken 
that evening beyond ordering the vessels to be re- 
measured and marked externally on the day fol- 
lowing. No members or representatives of the 
Committee were placed in charge pending remeas- 
urement, as I had requested. 

"Had this been done, my contention that 
Defender exceeded her measured length, and the 
extreme limit of length imposed by the agreement 
and deed of gift, namely 90 feet, would have been 
proved or disproved." 

Now, sir, from that conversation, judging by 



13 



what I may call the defense of the America's Cup 
Committee, which I received late yesterday after- 
noon, and which purports to be dated December 
14th, there appears to be a conflict of evidence. 
Another account of this is given on page 30 
of their defense, in which the conversation with 
Mr. Fish is detailed in another form. The state- 
ment that is there made is: " Prior to the start, 
on September 7th, the day of the first race, Lord 
Dunraven stated to Mr. Latham A. Fish, a member 
of the Committee and the representative of the 
N. Y. Y. C. that day on Valkyrie, that he, Lord 
Dunraven, and some four or five others whom he 
named, were confident from their own observation, 
that Defender was 3 or 4 inches deeper in the water 
than when measured the previous day. He stated 
that he believed this alteration had been made with- 
out the knowledge of the owners of Defender, but 
it must be corrected or he would discontinue 
racing. ' ' 

Now that remembrance, " It must be corrected, 
or he would discontinue racing, ' ' — supposing the 
statement previously made that an arrangement for 
September 8th had been decided upon before the 
first race is correct, — would seem to be perfectly 
superfluous. "It must be corrected or he would 
discontinue racing." Lord Dunraven could never 
make a statement of that kind, except on the sup- 
position that no such an arrangement had been 
come to, as is here stated on page 29. Lord Dun- 
raven states, as a matter of fact, and we have in- 
formation that Mr. Watson also knew nothing 
about an arrangement that the yachts should be 
marked on the morning of the day following the 
first race. We know nothing about that. 

After the word " racing " it goes on. 

' ' He said he did not wish to say to the Commit- 
tee what action they should take, but he desired a 
re-measurement that day, after the race. Mr. Fish 
remarked to Lord Dunraven that, in his opinion, it 



14 



would be too dark after the race to re-measure that 
day. 

" The first intimation that the Committee received 
of this conversation was when, in response to a 
hail from Valkyrie, Mr. Fish was taken on 
board the Committee boat shortly after 6 p.m. Mr. 
Fish immediately reported to the Committee. Ow- 
ing to the lateness of the hour it was a physicial 
impossibility to take Defender to a proper 
place and re-measure her that day. The Committee 
took steps to ensure that a re-measurement the 
next day, in connection with the marking, should 
be thoroughly done. This re-measurement showed 
less than one -eighth of an inch difference in the 
L. W. L. length of Defender, as compared 
with Friday's figures. 

" And thus the matter ended." 

As to that, I may ask, why? It would have been 
perfectly simple for the Committee, receiving a 
complaint of this kind, to have put somebody on 
the boat; and I should say that they ought to 
have done so, whether Mr. Fish reported the con- 
versation with Lord Dunraven accurately or not. 

" It is proper to note here that Lord Dunraven is 
in error in asserting that he asked or suggested 
that a watch be placed on both vessels until 
measured. 

" We do not make this denial as a defense of the 
Committee's action, or as implying that such a re- 
quest or suggestion would have been followed." 

The Committee states here that Lord Dunraven 
is in error. The only evidence upon which they 
could have acted would have been the statement of 
Mr. Latham Fish. We, of course, do not know 
exactly what Mr. Latham Fish said to the Com- 
mittee ; but what Lord Dunraven made as his state- 
ment to Mr. Latham Fish is not only put forth in 
his pamphlet in fall detail, giving the conversation 
which took place, but Mr. Glennie, who was upon 
the Valkyrie, had a statement made to him by 



15 



Lord Dunraven immediately after the conversation 
that he had had with Mr. Latham Fish, in which 
he told Mr. Glennie that he had requested Mr. Fish 
to inform the Committee that somebody should be 
put upon the boat the same evening, and that charge 
should be taken until the next day. Whether Mr. 
Latham Fish reported that or not, as I say, we do 
not know ; but the fact that Lord Dunraven, if you 
believe the weight of evidence upon his side, had 
that coDversation and made those statements to Mr. 
Latham Fish, exonerates him from any suggestion 
that upon November 9th he for the first time made 
a statement which came as a blow to persons who 
were interested in the Defender. Mr. Latham 
Fish was there as the representative of the De- 
fender, and it is difficult to define his duty, per- 
haps; but as representative of the Defender 
there was nobody else to whom Lord Dunraven 
could appeal, open and fearlessly, at a time when 
he was in this country. To a representative of 
the Defender, Lord Dunraven made that state- 
ment, asked that precautions should be taken, re- 
quested that they should be, and no notice was 
taken of it. Possibly Mr. Latham Fish may not 
have accurately reported the statement; he may 
not have perhaps gauged its importance. The 
Committee states that they did not know it, but 
the very next paragraph in this statement of this 
Committee appears to show that they did consider 
that it was an important matter, and that they did 
nothing. 

"As will appear from what follows, the Com- 
mittee decided upon a course of action which did 
not involve proving or disproving Lord Dunraven's 
implication of fraud." 

Well, sir, it seems that Lord Dunraven, in at- 
tacking the competence of the Committee after- 
wards, was justified in showing to the world, after 
they had made a perfectly different statement 
on October 24th, that in his opinion he had made 



16 



as fully as tie could a statement at a time when it 
could be proved or disproved and when not only it 
could be established in the interest of Defender, 
but the owners of Valkyrie, if the opportunity 
had then been taken ; that he made this statement, 
and the Committee took no notice of it. 

Then the statement goes on to give a sort of ex- 
oneration of Mr. Fish, as if the Committee had 
some sort of idea that he had not fully represented 
what the conversation between him and Lord Dun- 
raven had been. 

" As bearing somewhat on the case, it is only fair 
to Mr. Fish to say that he was in no way acting as 
a member of the Committee that day on Valky- 
rie, but merely as a representative of the N. Y. 
Y. C, to see fair play during the race, and his 
only function in this matter was that of a trust- 
worthy messenger." 

Mr. Fish cannot be a member of a Committee one 
hour and drop it and take it up again. His func- 
tion may possibly have been that only of a messen- 
ger, but it would be difficult to see that any one who 
was present at the races could exactly have consid- 
ered that that was his only function, if he was there 
ostensibly as the representative of the owner of 
the Defender, and also happened to be a member of 
the America's Cup Committee too. But as a matter 
of fact it is at once stated that he made his report. 

The only thing the Committee did was to order 
remeasurement on the next day ; as if remeasure- 
ment on Sunday could prove, necessarily, a matter 
that occurred Saturday morning. Lord Dunraven 
had asked that precaution should be taken ; that 
the boat, in the interest of the public, in the in- 
terest of the owners of both vessels, should be looked 
after until the weighing in, as I might call it, had 
taken place; according to his request no notice 
was taken of this, and the Committee took a futile 
course for the purpose of satisfying the public, or 
Lord Dunraven, or the owners of the Defender. 



17 



Lord Dunraven subsequently, being here as a 
member of a great yacht club, wrote an account of 
the various proceedings that had taken place in 
America to Mr. Grant, the Secretary of the Royal 
Yacht Squadron. That document I will put in. 
This is a correct copy of it; and it is word for 
word, I think, the same as the pamphlet. 

Mr. Choate : Has that document ever been 
printed ? 

Mr. AsTcwith : I think not. It was a letter that 
was sent to the Secretary of the Yacht Squadron, 
communicating the same to the Yacht Squadron. 
I don't know that it is necessary to read the whole 
of that statement that is made. 

The Chairman: What is the date of it, Mr. 
Askwith ? 

Mr. AsTcwith : September 24th. He details the 
conversation with Mr. Fish in the same way as he 
has put it in the pamphlet, and I will ask my friend 
to go through and correct it with the pamphlet. 

If he finds any difference in the wording of 
that and the pamphlet I will call attention 
to it. 

Could we have a second copy of the defense of 
the America's Cup Committee? 

Mr. Rives : I sent three copies of it to Mr. 
Kersey. I think I have some more, however. 

The Chairman : Do I understand you that that 
is the same as the statement in the pamphlet? 

Mr. AsTcwith : I think it is word for word the 
same. I have asked Mr. Hamilton to look through 
to see if there is any actual difference in the word- 
ing. 

The Chairman : Will you furnish us with a copy 
of it? 

Mr. AsTcwith : Yes ; directly I find there is any 
difference or not. 

Mr. Morgan : Is not that a report to the Royal 
Yacht Squadron? 

Mr. Askwith : Yes, sir. 



18 

Mr. Morgan : Then it should be exactly in ac- 
cordance with that report, and not corrected by the 
pamphlet? 

Mr. AsTcwith : It is only a matter of comment 
really, to see whether the letter to the Secretary of 
the Royal Yacht Squadron is exactly the same as 
what Lord Dunraven published on November 9th in 
the pamphlet. I think they are the same. It is 
only the letter to the Secretary. 

The letter is as follows; the pencil correc- 
tions made by Mr. Hamilton being enclosed in 
parenthesis. 

"439 Fifth Avenue, 
New York, September 24/95 

" My Dear Mr. Grant: 

" On the 30th August, I met the America Cup 
Committee, at the N. Y. Y. Club, and after some 
conversation, mainly on the question whether races 
should be stopped and declared off, at dark, an 
agreement was come to. 

" On the 4th September, Mr. Smith, Chairman of 
the Committee, informed me that Mr. Iselin was 
anxious that the agreement should be amended so 
as to ensure that one clear week day should inter- 
vene between each race. I told Mr. Smith that I 
was opposed to working on Sundays except in case 
of necessity ; that, as there was nothing more to 
be done to either vessel, unless work was rendered 
necessary to repair damage caused by accident, in 
which case the Committee had power to grant any 
amount of time they thought necessary for repairs, 
I saw no object in the proposed amendment; that 
I preferred to sail the races off as quickly as possi- 
ble ; but that I would do whatever Mr. Iselin and 
the Committee wished in the matter. The corre- 
spondence will be found in the last paragraph of 
letter No. 3 and in letters No. 4 and 5. 

" On September 5th, I wrote letter No. 7, reiter- 
ating opinions previously expressed. To that let- 



19 



ter I received no written reply; but was given ver- 
bally to understand that the Committee saw no 
object in re-considering the points involved. I did 
not further press the matter, as I considered the 
Committee responsible, and that unless necessity 
compelled I had no right to insist. 

' ' On the 5th or 6th September, the agreement was 
signed by Mr. Smith and myself on board the 
City of Bridgeport, Valkyrie's tender. 

"The first race was sailed on September 7th. I 
am of opinion that Defender did not sail on 
her proper L. W. L. Length during that race ; and 
for the following reasons : I should first explain 
that none of the gentlemen interested in De- 
fender lived on board her or on board of her tender, 
the Hattie Palmer; that Defender's crew slept on 
board her and that, in consequence a good deal of 
material, men's cots, etc., etc., had to be transferred 
backwards and forwards between the Hattie Palmer 
and Defender. A good opportunity was afforded 
us of observing Defender when she lay close to us 
in the Erie Basin previous to docking after the final 
trial race on the 31st August. When she came into 
the basin to be measured on the 6th September, it 
was plain to me as to all on board the City of 
Bridgeport, that she was floating many inches (con- 
siderably) higher than on the former occasion. 
That was, of course, quite unobjectionable. I may 
mention that according to Mr. Hyslop, the official 
measurer, and to Mr. Iselin, Defender was some six 
inches shorter when measured for the Cup races 
than when measured for the Goelet Cup Race. 
Both yachts lay inside Sandy Hook Friday night. 
Defender's tender the Hattie Palmer lay along side 
her and the crew were at work (in moving material 
from one vessel to the other) from dark to one in 
the morning. 

" On Saturday morning early, my attention was 
drawn by those on board the City of Bridgeport 



20 

(representatives of her American crew), including 
her captain and my pilot (an unusually well in- 
formed man), to the fact that Defender was visibly 
deeper in the water than when measured. She so 
appeared to me (but as her tender was alongside 
and engaged apparently in taking material out of 
her, it was impossible to form a definite opinion at 
that time). (When) I put Mr. Henderson, my 
representative, on board Defender, about 9 a.m.,. 
after the Hattie Palmer had left her ; and felt per- 
fectly certain that Defender was immersed deeper 
than when measured. Not only was her bobstay 
bolt nearer the water, which might have been the 
result of alteration in trim ; but judging by the line 
of the bronze plating and by the fact that a pipe 
amidship was flush with the water when she was 
measured, was nowhere visible, she was in my 
opinion floating deeper in the water (than when 
measured). I was reluctant to make a formal 
complaint to the Cup Committee on a matter which 
it was, of course, impossible for me (personally) to 
verify ; and in any case nothing could be done before 
the race was started, but as soon as Mr. Latham 
Fish, a member of the Committee, came on board 
Valkyrie as Defender's representative, and be- 
fore the race was started, I stated the whole case 
to him ; told him I thought that some mistake had 
been made and that all the weight put into De- 
fender after measurement had not been taken out 
before the race ; that I was positively certain she 
was not sailing (on her) (at least a foot beyond her) 
proper length ; and I requested him to take the 
earliest opportunity of mentioning the matter to 
the Committee. Mr. Fish asked me what sugges- 
tion I could make, and 1 replied to the effect that 
I wished the Committee to put one of their mem- 
bers (or some reliable representative) on board of 
each yacht immediately after the race and to have 
both vessels remeasured ; if possible that evening ; 



21 



if that were impossible, then that the Committee 
men, or their representatives, should stay on board 
,in charge of the vessels until they were measured ; 
that I thought the L. W. L. should be marked on 
both vessels externally so as to be plainly visible ; 
and that the Committee should take any other 
steps that they thought desirable to ensure that the 
yachts did not exceed their L. W. L. length when 
racing. I put Mr. Fish on board the Committee 
boat immediately after the race. No action was 
taken that evening beyond ordering the vessels to 
be re-measured and marked (externally) on the day 
following; no member or representative of the 
Committee were placed in charge pending re- 
measurement (as I had requested). (I greatly re- 
gret that my request was not complied with.) Had 
(this) it been (done), my contention that Defender 
exceeded her measured length (and the extreme 
limit of length, imposed by the agreement and 
deed of gift) would have been proved or dis- 
proved. Defender lay Saturday night at Bay 
Ridge with the Hattie Palmer along side of her. 
Both yachts were measured on (the following day) 
Sunday afternoon. Their L. W. L. length was 
practically the same as when measured on the Fri- 
day previous, but obviously that fact affords no 
proof that either or both of them had not ex- 
ceeded their measured length when sailing on Sat- 
urday. 

" During the first race tha starting line was so 
encumbered with excursion steamers and press tugs 
that we could not at times see the markboat; 
crafts were constantly passing in front of it. It 
was impossible to pick up the starting line accu- 
rately, the markboat being hidden from our view 
at gunfire, and there was not sufficient room to 
manoeuvre such large vessels in reasonable safety. 
During the reach home from the weathermark we 
were much hampered by a great body of excursion 
steamers. It was not until they had drawn out a 



22 



little wide that we got anything like a true wind 
and sea. This was in accordance with my former 
experience that the vessel behind got much the 
worst of the wash. 

"The second race was sailed on the 10th. The 
starting line was again blocked and crowded to a 
dangerous extent. While manoeuvring for the 
start a foul occurred which led to a protest by 
Defender against Valkyrie, and a decision of the 
Regatta Committee awarding the race to the 
Defender. 

' * On the reach from the first to the second mark 
we had fairly clear water to sail over ; but on the 
reach from the second mark home the steamers in- 
terfered with us to an extent unprecedented in my 
experience on this occasion or in 1893. Some eight 
or nine vessels crossed our bows, and a large num- 
ber packed closely together and steaming at a high 
rate of speed kept level with us to leeward, their 
wash running up against the wind and natural sea 
giving us heavy broken water to sail through. I 
make no accusation of partiality, I only say that 
whereas the ship, which was behind on the first 
day, got much the worst of the wash, the ship which 
was in front got much the worst of it on the sec- 
ond day. I made up my mind that it was per- 
fectly useless to sail under such circumstances 
and communicated my decision to the gentlemen 
on board Valkyrie. On my return to the City of 
Bridgeport that evening I wrote a letter to the 
Committee giving my decision and my reasons for 
arriving at it. On the following morning I wrote a 
copy of it and handed it to a third party, Mr. 
Kersey, with written instructions to deliver it after 
the protest had been heard and decided. The corre- 
spondence will be found in letters No. 8, 11, 12, 13 ; 
but I may recapitulate. Finding soon after my re- 
turn to the City of Bridgeport that a protest 
had been lodged against me, and believing that the 
Cup Committee heard the protest, I did not think 



23 



it right to hand them my letter declining to sail 
again under existing circumstances, pending their 
decision. I wished to avoid the possibility of ap- 
pearing desirous of influencing them, or of being 
myself influenced by the fact of the protest. On 
the following day I ascertained that the Regatta 
Committee heard the protest. I asked Mr. Can- 
field, Secretary of the Cup Committee, at about 
noon to call a meeting of his Committee imme- 
diately to consider a letter of importance, but re- 
quested him not to open it until the protest was 
decided. On reflection I thought it might be read 
at once, but, owing to some mistake of time it was 
not opened until 2.30. The Committee did not 
meet until some time later, and that delay was 
therefore immaterial. At about 9 p. m. Mr. Can- 
field and Mr. Busk called upon me at the Waldorf, 
where I was at a dinner party, and we had a short 
conversation on the subject of my letter. I under- 
stood their proposal to be that if I would sail the 
following day the Committee would not start the 
vessels until the starting line was clear, and that 
the dates and times of starting any other race 
should not be published. I did not consider that 
satisfactory and asked for a little time for consid- 
eration and for a written proposal. I begged that 
the next day's race might be postponed and of- 
fered to sail if the Committee would undertake to 
declare the race off, if, in their opinion, either 
vessel was unduly crowded. At 10.80 I received 
Mr. Canfield's proposal in writing. It was to the 
effect that the Committee would only undertake to 
postpone the start until the line was clear. At 
12.15 my reply declining to sail the course, but 
saying I would cross the line, was delivered at the 
N. Y. Y. Club. I am in ignorance as to what fol- 
lowed. I do not know whether my decision was 
communicated to Mr. Iselin, or whether any steps 
were taken to inform the public. I was in hopes 
until the last moment that the race would be post- 
poned. I do not wish to comment upon the action 



24 

of the Committee, but I must express my extreme 
regret that the race was not postponed. Had that 
been done I cannot but think that with a day's con- 
sideration means might have been found for ensur- 
ing a reasonably clear course and fair conditions of 
sailing the third and any other races. 

' ' As regards the foul : I do not for a moment 
impugn the action of the Regatta Committee ; but 
I think myself entitled to call your attention to 
the Protest, to a written statement handed in by 
me to the Committee before giving verbal evidence, 
and to the terms of the decision of the Regatta 
Committee. 

" To my statement I have little to add. I know 
that when we luffed to try and avoid a foul we were 
in danger of running into the Committee boat. I 
could see her just to leeward of our bowsprit ; and 
so close to that I was within an ace of ordering the 
helm hard down instead of hard up, fearing we 
could not clear her, but eventually we just scraped 
clear by putting the helm hard up. 

" Neither vessel had her sheets in, this I can swear 
to, so can my representative on Defender, and 
the enclosed photograph proves it ; both were well 
off the wind immediately before the foul. I stated 
and still hold that Yalkyrie was pointing just 
well clear of the weather end of the line, namely, 
the Committee boat ; that we did not bear down, 
but that Defender luffed into us. But assuming 
me to be wrong, I fail to see what rule was broken. 

"The rule that a vessel is not allowed to bear 
another vessel off her course in order to prevent her 
passing to leeward is, I apprehend, intended to apply 
to a vessel sailing a definite course to some definite 
point. How can it apply to vessels manoeuvring 
for a start? Under such circumstances the only 
course that can be said to be given them is to get to 
the starting line. Both vessels were off the wind, 
Valkyrie about half the length ahead to wind- 
ward. There could not be any possible question of 



25 



endeavoring to prevent Defender passing to lee- 
ward, as both vessels were practically at the line, 
the foul occurring about 15 seconds before gunfire. 

" Defender had the whole length of the line 
clear to leeward. She further had the two minutes 
additional handicap time which her manager 
specially insisted upon, of which to avail herself. 
I fail to see how any rule could be broken unless 
we had borne her down on top of, or to leeward of 
the lightship which represented the other or lee- 
ward end of the line. 

" The protest states that Mr. Iselin shaped his 
course for the line ; he does not say what part of 
it ; and that he gave orders that under no circum- 
stances was the course to be altered. Such action 
it surely incompatible with yacht racing, especially 
during the start. He adds that we bore down upon 
him with wide sheets and fouled him by luffing. I 
cannot reconcile these statements. The Committee 
say the foul occurred through a miscalculation of 
distance, if true a pure accident; but add that 
Yalkyrie broke Sec. 11, of rule 16, an impossi- 
bility, as it seems to me, as Defender had the 
entire line to cross in. 

" While accepting the verdict of the Regatta 
Committee without demur I am bound to say I 
think their judgment was given on a mistaken esti- 
mate of the circumstances, of the relative position 
of the vessels in respect to the direction of the wind 
and the starting line. I may further add that being 
in the best possible position in a weather berth 
(of which we could not be deprived) we had noth- 
ing to gain and everything to lose by causing a foul. 
I considered Defender responsible for the foul 
and I ought perhaps to have protested. But I 
thought it possible the foul at the last moment was 
accidental and I refrained from protesting. 

" I saw no protest flag shown on Defender, nor, 
I may add, did Mr. Henderson, my representative 
on Defender. Had I been aware that Defender 



26 



had protested I would certainly have done the 
same. 

' ' My declining to sail that race over again after 
it had been awarded to the Defender has excited 
considerable comment here; and the case that 
occurred in Puritan-G-enesta races has been quoted 
against me in reference to it. There is nothing 
in common between the two cases. Genesta on 
the starboard tack struck Puritan trying to cross her 
on the port tack. 

" The Committee then and there offered the race 
to Genesta, saying she might walk over or not. 
Sir Richard Sutton refused to accept the race ; there 
was no protest and no defence. In the present 
instance a protest was made. It was not withdrawn. 
It was disputed. The proper authority investigated 
the case and gave their decision. It was absolutely 
impossible for me to resail a race at the personal re- 
quest of Mr. Iselin after the Committee had given 
a verdict against me. Even had I been willing to 
do so I doubt if it was within the power of Mr. 
Iselin and myself to resail the race ; or within the 
power of the Regatta Committee to permit it. I had 
no desire to interpret the N. Y. Y. Club rules, but 
as I read them the Regatta Committee could under 
Article X. have ordered the race to be resailed 
without taking evidence. They could have done so 
after taking evidence on the ground that it was in- 
conclusive or that the foul was on both sides acci- 
dental; but having once heard the protest and de- 
cided it their decision was final and could not be 
revoked by any private arrangement with or with- 
out their sanction. When I went before the Re- 
gatta Committee they asked me, on their own initi- 
ative and without any authority from Mr. Iselin, 
whether I did not think it would be a good thing 
if the race could be resailed by mutual agreement. 
I replied to the effect that I thought they had 
power to order the race to be resailed ; that a defi- 
nite protest having been made and not withdrawn 
I supjoosed they ought to hear it, and that as far as 



27 



I was concerned I was perfectly willing to have 
the case decided on its merits. I do not see what 
other answer I could possibly have returned. The 
correspondence on this point is contained in letters 
No. 19, 20, 21, 22. 

" As my action on the 12th September, when the 
last race took place, has been much misunderstood, 
and as a desire to act in a way discourteous or even 
insulting to the Defender, the Committee and the 
American people, has been very wrongfully attrib- 
uted to me, I may be permitted more fully to ex- 
plain. 

" Having rightly or wrongly made up my mind 
on Tuesday the 10th to sail no more under the cir- 
cumstances that had prevailed during the race of 
that day and of the previous Saturday, I endeav- 
oured to carry out my determination with the 
greatest courtesy and the least possible annoyance 
to any one. The circumstances attending the de- 
livery of my letter of the 10th, No. 8, have been 
already explained, and I need not repeat what oc- 
curred at the short interview between Mr. Canfield, 
Mr. Busk and myself at the Waldorf on the night 
of Wednesday, the 11th. But I wish to add that 
when I went to Sandy Hook on Thursday morning 
I was in ignorance as so the intentions of the Com- 
mittee, but thought and hoped they would postpone 
the race, by the simple process of hoisting letter 
*G'(see sailing directions). I crossed the line 
because I thought the agreement demanded it; 
because I thought it the most courteous thing to do, 
and because I had told Mr. Canfield and Mr. Busk 
I would do so. Having crossed the line and re- 
turned I considered the match over, took down my 
racing flag and hoisted the burgee of the N. Y. Y. 
Club, of which I have the honor of being an hon- 
orary member. I hoped that would have been con- 
strued, as I intended it to be, into a sign of friend- 
ship and courtesy. It appears to have had an op- 
posite effect. I had no idea, until the starting gun 



28 



was fired, what the Committee intended to do, or 
whether the Defender was aware of my decision, 
or whether any notice had been given to the 
public. I may say that my letter of the 10th, let- 
ter 8, had previously been given to the press. If 
any annoyance or inconvenience was experienced, I 
greatly regret it, but it was unavoidable on my 
part. 

" On the first race we made a bad start. We 
lost sight of the mark-boat when close to the line, 
bore up without, as it turned out, any necessity 
for doing so, and lost our weather berth, but the 
ship sailed remarkably well, especially considering 
that the conditions we least desired prevailed, 
namely, a very light wind and a good deal of swell. 
She worked out clear, very fast from under Defend- 
er's lee, and we were in a very good position and 
would, I am convinced, have rounded the weather 
mark well ahead had not the wind northerned 
three or four points, and broke us off badly. We 
made two palpable mistakes. When we stayed to 
the eastward to fetch the mark the wind broke us 
off about three points, and when we stayed back 
to port tack to cross Defender on the starboard 
tack, the wind broke us off again and freed her, 
and we were forced to stay again for her. Against 
all that, of course, there is nothing to say. It 
was bad judgment on our part or bad luck; but I 
am perfectly satisfied with the way the vessel 
turned to windward. As to the reach home it is 
impossible to judge, owing to the crowding of 
steamers already alluded to, but my belief is that 
Defender would have reached us in any case, 
though certainly not to anything like the same 
extent. 

" On the second day, I did not think that the fact 
that Defender carried no jib-topsail to windward 
made any difference. We carried a jib-topsail be- 
cause we had it set at the start, and as it was no 
detriment, we did not risk losing time in taking it 



29 



in, but Valkyrie would have got to the weather 
mark as soon without it. 

' ' On the reach from the first to the second mark 
Defender, I think, lost somewhat by not carrying 
a larger jib-topsail. But on the other hand we 
lost a good bit by having to shift sails. I think 
the tug employed to lay down the mark made a 
mistake in the course, or that her compass had a 
larger error than was allowed for. I had Val- 
kyrie's compasses adjusted to every point by Mr. 
Negus, who attends to all the compasses and in- 
struments of the White Star Line ; and I had them 
tested with special reference to the possible effect 
of the steel boom in various positions ; Mr. Harri- 
son, the navigating officer, verified the adjuster's 
work by a number of asimuths. 

" We steered the course given us, namely, N. E. 
by E. (magnetic) at first, and then N. E. |E. to 
allow for tide. 

' ' Defender for some time steered identically 
the same course that we did. Having covered 
some 6 or 7 miles, as we estimated, we were much 
puzzled at seeing no sign of the tug of mark. 
There was a tug steaming along to windward of us, 
and our attention was especially called to her by 
seeing Defender haul her wind a couple of points 
or so, but we concluded that this could not possi- 
bly be the mark boat, as she was not displaying the 
Club burgee ; was not steering the course given us, 
and was not far enough ahead. Shortly afterwards 
this tug steamed ahead to wind and let go the float 
about 1 or 1-J miles from us. (See letters No. 30 
and 32.) We were then so much to leeward that 
we had to take in the bowsprit spinnaker and set 
the jib and jib -topsail to fetch the mark. How 
much we lost in handling these big sails with a 
crowd of men out on the bowspirit and forward, I 
cannot say, but we lost considerably through the 
inefficient marking of the course. Of the reach 
home it is unnecessary to speak further. On the 



30 



whole, judging to the best of my ability, I would 
say that Defender is the better boat on a reach, 
at any rate, on anything except a close hauled 
reach, and that Valkyrie is the better boat turning 
to windward and running. 

" I have seen in the newspapers (letter 23) that 
Mr. Iselin made two propositions to the Committee, 
either to call the last two races off and resail them, 
or to call the races off and commence the series 
again under any condition I might approve of. 
No such proposal has been made to me by Mr. 
Iselin or either of the Committees. I need not say 
that I would have seized, with alacrity, any oppor- 
tunity of entering into the contest again with a 
reasonably clear course and a fair field assured. 

" The contention that I broke my agreement by 
allowing Defender practically to walk over for the 
final race is scarcely worth considering. It was 
the business of the Committee to keep a reasonably 
clear and safe course. It was not my business to 
dictate to them the means they were to employ. I 
could only warn them and ask them, and that I did 
over and over again. Failing a reasonably safe and 
fairly clear field I was not bound by any agreement 
to sail the ship round a course under circumstances 
which gave her no fair chance. I fulfilled all strict 
liabilities by crossing the line. 

" I have written in what you may consider un- 
necessary detail ; but I am most anxious that you 
should be placed in full possession of all the cir- 
cumstances of the case, and I hope that the corre- 
spondence read with this letter will make them 
clear. 

" In conclusion I beg to say that under circum- 
stances of some difficulty, and with a full sense of 
the responsibility involved, I acted according to the 
best of my judgment and ability, not for a moment 
forgetting that I was in charge of a yacht repre- 



31 

sen ting the R. Y. S., and I have seen no reason to 
regret my action. 

" Yours very truly, 

" (Signed) Dunraven." 

Mr. Aslcwith: (Continued) After the races Lord 
Dunraven started for England, arriving September 
18th on board the yacht Yalhalla. 

Mr. Rives: September 18th? The letter was 
written September 24th. 

Mr. Aslcwith: I will give you the exact date. 
On Saturday, September 28th, he left Newport on 
the Yalhalla and the Yalhalla arrived at Cowes on 
Friday, October 18th. 

Lord Dunraven left matters of detail here in the 
hands of Mr. Kersey, of this city, and this matter 
of the load water line being known to Mr. Smith 
and the members of the America's Cup Committee, 
Mr. Kersey and Mr. Smith had a conversation on 
that point, and it was more or less arranged between 
them that nothing should be published upon the 
question of the load water line by either side. Mr. 
Kersey has written, dated to-day 

The Chairman: Will you repeat that remark 
again? I did not quite catch it. 

Mr. Aslcwith; After Lord Dunraven had left for 
England, the interests of Lord Dunraven in matters 
of detail here were left in the hands of Mr. Kersey. 
Mr. Kersey met Mr. Smith and in conversation 
with him an arrangement was made between Mr. 
Kersey and Mr. Smith — or so Mr. Kersey under- 
stood — that no publication with regard to the 
matter of the load water line, or the re-measure- 
ment, should be made by either side. Mr. Kersey 
has to-day written a letter stating what his remem- 
brance of the matter is, to Lord Dunraven, in which 
he stated this : 



32 



" 40 East 25th St., December 26th. 

" Dear Loed Duneaveist: 

" With regard to the matter of the non-publica- 
tion of your complaint of September 7th here, on or 
about September 25th Mr. Smith, of the Cup Com- 
mittee, stated to me in his office in the city that he 
did not think he would say anything further to the 
Club about the matter. I quite agreed with him 
that the less said the better and I very distinctly 
concluded that no mention would be made of the 
subject, at any rate as far as the Chairman of the 
Cup Committee was concerned. I communicated 
this to you in Newport and Monday the 30th, I 
received a letter from you written on ' Valhalla ' 
the 27th asking me to cable Grant to omit all ref- 
erence to the L. W. L. question if publishing your 
report to the Squadron in England. I cabled him 
to this effect October 1st. I was very much sur- 
prised to see in the morning papers of the 25th 
that the matter had been laid before the Club on 
the previous evening. 

" Yours sincerely, 

"J. Maitland Keesey." 

The Chairman: Will you furnish us with a copy 
of that? 

Mr. Askwith: That letter I will put in. 

Mr. Choate: The letter should be proven of 
course. 

Mr. AsTcwith: If it is desired to prove it formally, 
we will. 

Mr. Choate: I do not mean now. 

Mr. Askwith: On September 26th — I have a 
copy here — Lord Dunraven cabled to Mr. Grant, 
the Secretary of the Squadron : 

" 26th September, '95. 
" Geant, R. Y. S., Cowes, England. Kersey 
will advise you as to publication. Duneaven." 



33 



On the 1st of October, 1895, Mr. Kersey, after 
Lord Dunraven had started for England on board 
the Valhalla, telegraphed : 

' 'Grant, Squadron, Cowes. Dunraven thinks 

best not publish letter Defender's measurement 

until he arrives. 

" Kersey." 

Mr. Rives : What is the date of that? 

Mr. Aslcwith : 1st of October. I hand in the 
copy. 

On October 24th there was a meeting of the Club. 
At that meeting the statement which appears in 
the report of the America's Cup Committee, on page 
37, was made, and in the communications, which 
were all that Lord Dunraven could see or had infor- 
mation of, in the papers, the sole quotation, accord- 
ing to the three papers I have here, which was 
made, began with the words, "On Saturday, Sep- 
tember 7th." Nothing was said in the papers 
about the rest of the report, and no copy of the re- 
port was obtained by us until yesterday. The 
previous portion or paragraph of the report, stat- 
ing, "Valkyrie had been already measured and 
had left the Basin, and on account of the tide could 
not return in order to be marked that day. It 
was, therefore, arranged with Lord Dunraven, Mr. 
Iselin, the representative from each side, Mr. 
George L. Watson and Mr. Herreshoff and the 
measurer that the yachts should be marked on the 
day following the first race, that is, on September 
8th," and the rest of that paragraph was not put 
in the newspapers. I don't know whether this is 
the original report or an amended report. 

Mr. Rives : It is the original report. It has 
only been printed within two or three days. 

Mr. AsTcwith : That statement was not known to 
Lord Dunraven at the time he published his pam- 
phlet. And also he says that, as far as he was 



34 



concerned, no arrangement of that kind had been 
made or ever reached him. 

Now, that statement on page 37, beginning, " On 
Saturday, September 7th," down to the end of the 
page was published in the newspapers. It appears 
to have excited little comment by the newspapers 
as a whole. It appears to have excited some com- 
ment at the Club, but nothing of any very great 
importance. One or two newspapers, however — I 
have a copy of the Sun of Friday, October 25th — 
put at the head of their statement these words, 
"Dimraven cried fraud," so that, in the estima- 
tion of certain people, an implication of fraud had 
been made, and according to the defense of the 
America's Cup Committee they considered that an 
implication of fraud had been made; but no par- 
ticular notice or excitement seems to have occurred 
until Lord Dunraven, having received a cable mes- 
sage as to this statement, a statement contrary to 
what he understood was the agreement, contrary to 
what he knew in his own mind to be the facts, and 
making it appear that he had frivolously and ab- 
surdly made a complaint, which he did not think 
anything of and which he did not believe to be true, 
knowing that the evidence of his senses was that on 
which he founded this fact, published his pamphlet. 
In that pamphlet he complains of the action of the 
Committee, and re-states and reiterates what he 
had already stated on September 7th ; what he had 
already stated to Mr. Grant, the secretary of the 
K,. Y. S. ; what was apparently known to Mr. 
Smith ; what the Cup Committee themselves con- 
sidered to have been an indication of fraud, and 
what some, at least, of the newspapers also con- 
sidered to be an implication of fraud. Whether it 
was an implication of fraud is another matter. 
There is the plain statement, showing what he had 
done, and that statement he had made previously, 
and he again made it in this pamphlet, which is an 
attack, in a sense, if it is an attack of any kind, 



35 



upon the action of the America's Cup Committee. 
The pamphlet consists of 71 pages, and prior to the 
Appendix there is a portion of it — 33 pages — de- 
voted to the races, and upon each of the races he 
alludes to what he considers to be the grand 
motherly action of the America's Cup Committee. 
The first 13 pages'are those in which he deals with 
this particular matter of the load water line length 
in the first race. 

That is the mode in which this pamphlet came 
to be published, and it is important, as dealing 
with the importance which the Committee them- 
selves attach to this question of the load water line, 
to note that in the arrangement made with Mr. 
Rose, who had issued a challenge for the America's 
Cup in 1896, the rules as to the measurement were 
altered ; and the America's Cup Committee proposed 
in the arrangement which was to be made with Mr. 
Rose, that the very proposals that Lord Dunraven 
had suggested should be carried out. Those con- 
ditions are put forward in several newspapers, of 
which, if desired, I can put my hand upon a copy, 
but the Club will have in their own possession 
the terms of the arrangement which was made 
with Mr. Rose. 

The reasons why Lord Dunraven published this 
pamphlet, following upon this account of the facts 
which had been made by the America's Cup Com- 
mittee, and with which he did not agree, are put at 
the first page of it, in which he says : 

' ' I would confine myself to the cause of my with- 
drawal, namely, the overcrowding of the course, 
were it not that other matters have been alluded to 
in a report to the New York Yacht Club made by 
the Cup Committee." 

Now, at the present time, the proof or disproof 
of the statement made on September the 7th, that 
Defender exceeded her measured length, is ex- 
tremely difficult, in his view impossible; as he 
says, on page 10 of this pamphlet : 



36 



" Had this been done " — that is to say if investi- 
gation had been made at the time — "my conten- 
tion that Defender exceeded her measured length, 
and the extreme limit of length imposed by the 
agreement and deed of gift, namely, 90 feet, would 
have been proved or disproved." 

Now the proof or disproof is, in his view, im- 
possible. It is a position that is disagreeable, to 
say the least, on both sides. It is hard upon Mr. 
Iselin that, from his point of view, this statement 
of this fact cannot be proved or disproved. It is 
still harder on Lord Dunraven that he should be 
asked to come here, months after the date, to try 
to assist this Committee to find out the proof or dis- 
proof of a matter which he asked to be investigated 
at the moment. It may be that the inquiry this 
Commission will make will be futile upon the point 
of proving absolutely the cause of the fact as 
stated by him. Lord Dunraven is here now to 
give such evidence as he can to assist this Com- 
mission. I do not think it would be of any ad- 
vantage for me to lengthen my statement upon the 
subject, and I propose that either he shall give his 
evidence viva voce to you, or that I should read to 
you a sworn deposition, which he had prepared in 
England, when it was doubtful whether he could 
come out himself or not. Upon that the Commis- 
sion could ask such questions as they may de- 
sire. Either procedure will be satisfactory to 
Lord Dunraven. He will add any further remarks 
that he may consider advisable to the statement 
I have made, and state whether he indorses my 
view, or the view I have given to you, of his 
position in coming to this inquiry, and of all the 
matters of prior prejudice, as I may say, that have 
led to these strong attacks that have been made 
upon him, in answer to which he appears before 
you. 

After this Commission had been appointed, he 
had an opportunity in England of explaining more 



37 



fully his position, and he made a speech at Cardiff 
of which I should like the Committee to have this 
copy. It is a typewritten copy, with alterations 
made by Lord Dunraven's secretary, of what he 
said, or rather prepared for making the speech; 
what he wrote as to what he intended to say, and 
what I believe he did, word for word, say. It 
shows pretty clearly his position upon the matter 
and his view of the importance of his having taken 
the action that he did take. 

Mr. Rives : What is the date of that? 

Mr. AsJtwith : This was on November 21st. 

Mr. Choate : I have what purports to be a copy 
of that speech in the London Times of the 22d. 
Do you know whether that is authentic ? 

Mr. Hamilton : It is a fairly correct report. It 
is very much shortened. 

Mr. Askwith : I think it is a fairly correct re- 
port. Lord Dunraven says this : 

' ' I wish to speak quite plainly my opinion on 
this matter. The America's Cup has been erected 
into a great international trophy ; the contests for 
it have gradually acquired in America the dimen- 
sions of a really important international event. 
Excitement runs high ; very large sums of money 
are involved ; vast crowds of spectators throng the 
scene. 

' ' But the care and attention of those responsible 
for the conduct of these contests has not increased 
in proportion with the increased interest felt in 
them, and with the greatness of the issues in- 
volved. When great masses of people are so in- 
terested, all responsibility should be assumed by 
those in charge. It is not fair upon the public or 
upon any of the parties concerned that there 
should be any question of A's honor or B's integ- 
rity, of one man's accuracy or of the keenness of 
another's moral conceptions. Take any other sport, 
racing, horse racing I mean, for instance. Does any- 
body feel aggrieved because the strictest precautions 



38 

are taken to insure the fulfillment of strict rules? 
Certainly not. Can a finer specimen of a sporting 
man be found than the late Lord Falmouth? Yet 
I never heard that he, or any one else, considered 
themselves insulted because they raced subject to 
the severest supervision. What is there so essen- 
tially singular in yacht racing, especially in yacht 
racing developed to these huge proportions? 
Nothing that I know of. Such contests ought, in 
my judgment, to be conducted under the closest 
official scrutiny. 

<k Again and again have I endeavored to impress 
this upon those having in their hands the manage- 
ment of the races. I venture to think if they had 
listened a little more seriously it would have been 
better for all, certainly better for me. I should 
never have been compelled to act in a way which 
I assure you was most distasteful to me. Many 
hard words and some bitter feelings would have 
been obviated. As to myself, for the violent lan- 
guage and abuse, in so far as it affects myself, I 
care very little, but in so far as the smallest particle 
of ill feeling can be created between two peoples 
who from every natural tie ought to be the fastest 
friends, self-respecting and respecting each other, 
I greatly deplore and much regret it. 

" What most annoys me is that some highly 
imaginative people seem bent on trying to delude 
themselves and others into the belief that in taking 
the course it was necessary to take, I was actuated 
by some feeling of animosity against the American 
people. Others accuse me of being the victim of 
pique, spite or passion, and strangest delusion of 
all, a storm of indignation is passing over the 
United States at my treachery in formulating a new 
charge from the safe distance of 3,000 miles. That 
astounds me and I resent it, for to do such a thing 
would be mean and contemptible, as mean and con- 
temptible as saying behind a man's back some- 
thing one dare not say to his face. But, gentlemen, 



39 



I have done nothing of the kind. I am unwilling 
to enter into discussion on these subjects, more 
especially as everything I say and do is by some 
curious misadventure misunderstood by the press 
on the other side of the ocean. 

" I have felt all along and still feel under this 
considerable difficulty. If, out of the respect I feel 
for the American people, and from a natural repug- 
nance to say anything that might hurt the sensibili- 
ties of personal friends, I am reticent and guarded 
in my words, my actions are misunderstood. If I 
speak out I am accused of a desire to insult a great 
nation and of all manner of high crimes and misde- 
meanors. To make a speech which shall be consid- 
ered satisfactory and complimentary by Armenians 
and Turks, by English, Russians, Chinese, French, 
by Exeter Hall and British Jingoes, is an easy task 
compared with talking about the America Cup. 
Besides I am not a man of war, but essentially a 
man of peace, and most reluctant to stir up ill 
feeling and strife. But to you who have paid me 
the highest possible compliment in expressing your 
confidence, your belief that I have acted in a way 
not unworthy of the honorable traditions of British 
sport, it is due that I should say a few words on 
the subject of the complaint I made that Defender 
sailed in the first place more deeply immersed and 
consequently longer on the water line than accord- 
ing to her measurement she was entitled to sail." 

Then he says he has a right to speak to them 
upon the matter, and he goes through the state- 
ment that I have already given as to the reason 
why he published the pamphlet. 

He says : 

" In that statement I made no accusation against 
any one. I mentioned a fact which I believed to be 
true, and which I still believe to be true, namely, 
that Defender sailed the first race on the 7th of 
September more deeply immersed than when she 



40 



was measured on the day before, and I gave my 
reasons for so thinking. Of that fact I had not and 
have not the slightest doubt. Whether I was right 
or whether I was wrong is a matter of opinion, and 
must, I fear, always remain so, seeing that the only 
possible opportunity of proving or disproving the 
justice of my complaint was not utilized. The one 
thing certain about it is that I made no new accu- 
sation the other day. 

' ' I made this complaint on the morning of the 
7th September last. It is absurd to pretend that 
I was actuated by spite or pique because my vessel 
was beaten, for I made it before the first race 
was started. I made it to Mr. Latham Fish, a 
member of the Committee, who was also De- 
fender's representative on board of Valkyrie. I 
gave him my reasons for my belief in words almost 
identical with those I used in the pamphlet I pub- 
lished the other day. I have not added anything 
or kept back anything in that pamphlet. I asked 
that both vessels should be remeasured and marked 
externally and that the Committee should take 
charge of them until they were remeasured, that 
being, as surely every man in his senses must see, 
the only possible means of efficient investigation 
and authoritative decision of the question. 

' ' The Committee were informed of my complaint 
and of my request immediately after the race. 
When I say the Committee were informed, I had no 
notice to that effect from them, but I took Mr. 
Latham Fish on board the Committee boat for the 
purpose of laying my complaint before them ; and 
obviously they were informed, for they acceded to a 
portion of my request, though, most unfortunately, 
not to all. Obviously, also, Defender's people must 
have known all about the matter, as I made the 
complaint and preferred the request to the Com- 
mittee through the representative of the De- 
fender, and naturally he must have told them all 
about it. I myself, in the presence of three or 



41 



four other gentlemen, had a long talk on the sub- 
ject with the official measurer of the New York 
Yacht Club. There was no concealment about the 
matter. The official measurer, all the people be- 
longing to Yalkyrie and all those on Defender, 
and the Committee knew all about my complaint on 
the 7th of last September; and yet an attempt is 
now made to prejudice me in the eyes of two coun- 
tries by accusing me of making from the security 
of home an entirely new charge, which I dared not 
make on the other side of the Atlantic. And the 
charge is stigmatized as a most gross and deliberate 
insult. Well, if it be an insult now, it certainly was 
equally an insult when it was made ; and I cannot 
but think that this violent hurricane of indignation 
would have carried more conviction had it burst 
upon my devoted head at the time the complaint 
was made, while I was in America and could have 
stood up for myself. I confess it seems to me a 
little out of date now. 

' ' I have been criticized here, at home also ; and it 
has been said, c Though you did make your com- 
plaint six weeks ago, the matter has dropped out 
of sight. Why revive it now?' 

" I have not the slightest objection to criticism or 
to any opinion which any man honestly forms and 
expresses on my actions ; but criticism and opinion, 
to be valuable, should be made with reference to 
facts. I quite agree that it might have been better 
to let the matter drop. I would never have alluded 
to it. I expressly say so in the pamphlet. There 
was no necessity for my mentioning it, it did not 
constitute my reason for withdrawing from the con- 
test, and I should not have alluded to this water- 
line complaint if I could have avoided doing so, but 
I could not. I published the facts here because the 
Committee reported upon them to the New York 
Yacht Club, and the Club published the report in 
New York. Surely, under the circumstances, I was 
bound to make my position clear. 



42 

" Let me make all this perfectly plain. Why 
those interested in Defender did not insist upon 
immediate steps being taken to prove the ground- 
lessness of my complaint I do not know. Why the 
Committee did not take the necessary steps I can- 
not tell. The fact remains that the necessary steps 
were not taken. I could do nothing. Of myself I 
could do nothing to justify my complaint. I could 
not prove my case ; it could only have been proved 
by the Committee. The Committee having neg- 
lected to secure proof one way or the other, there 
was nothing left for me to do. I had no object in 
saying anything more on a matter which had be- 
come impossible of proof, and as nothing further 
was said by Defender or the Committee, I also 
held my peace. There was no possibility of my 
giving the matter greater publicity than I did in 
preferring my complaint to the Committee. No 
object was to be gained by doing so, and I had no 
wish to allude further to a most distasteful subject. 
As a matter of fact, I believed that the subject 
would not be publicly mentioned in New York, 
and I took measures to prevent its being pub- 
licly mentioned here. But to my surprise the 
Committee reported upon it to the N. Y. Y. 
Club on the 24th October, and the Club gave 
the report to the public press on the following 
day. Reading the facts as set out in that report, 
any one might suppose that my complaint was dis- 
proved by the results of re-measurement, though 
obviously such is not the case. I could not by 
silence appear to countenance such an erroneous 
conclusion. The best, the fairest, the most straight- 
forward course to pursue was, in my judgment, to 
publish the actual facts, and let people form what 
opinion they chose. The facts were, if you will 
forgive me for repeating myself, that I did 
complain of Defender exceeding her measured 
length, that I did ask for re-measurement of both 
vessels ; but I also requested that both vessels 



43 



should be taken charge of by the Committee until 
they were re-measured, and that re-measurement 
should be made, if possible, the same day, and 
that all important part of my request was ignored. 
I say all important, because obviously to leave ves- 
sels alone to their own devices for twenty-four 
hours and then measure them, proves absolutely 
nothing. Yacht racing is not so well understood 
of the multitude as horse racing. May I take a 
simile from the last named sport? Would it be 
considered entirely satisfactory if a jockey were 
allowed to walk away with his horse saddled and 
bridled, and presented himself to be weighed in at 
some convenient time the day after the race? The 
idea is absurd. 

" I can understand men saying I had no right 
even to make any complaint against Defender. 
That is to say, that I ought to have trusted to the 
absolute accuracy and integrity of a number of 
men of whom I knew nothing, and to have disbe- 
lieved the evidence of my own senses, backed by 
the opinion of many other people capable of judg- 
ing. I don't think so, but that is a matter of 
opinion. But it would be absurd to contend that 
my complaint was disproved, and it is profoundly 
ridiculous to say that, in stating the facts of the 
case, I preferred anything in the shape of a new 
charge against the Defender. 

" Granting that under any circumstances an 
owner is justified in making any such complaint, 
the only fair criticism of my action that I have 
heard is that I ought to have taken more vigorous 
action. It has been said I should have refused to 
start in the first race until the vessels were re- 
measured, and that I should have broken off the 
contest altogether. I was not justified, in my 
opinion, in taking so serious a step. Consider the 
circumstances. The race was about to be started. 
Some 60,000 people were out on some 200 steamers. 
I should have had to get my boat out and pull on 



44 



board the Committee vessel and refuse to start. I 
should have been accused of unwillingness to sail, 
because the weather did not suit me, too much 
sea and too little wind, and a thousand and one 
things, and certainly of deliberate rudeness towards 
a great multitude of people who had paid to see 
the race, and if the Committee had refused to 
postpone the race, as I think they would have 
been perfectly justified in doing, and had said 
that they would have the vessels measured after- 
wards, what a silly position I should have been 
in. And if they had considered it sufficient to 
act in precisely the way they did act and merely 
order the vessels to be re-measured the next day, 
what a position I should have been in then. You 
must clearly understand that I could do nothing 
of myself to prove the justice of my complaint ; 
the Committee only had the means and the power 
to do so. Proof was possible only by measure- 
ment under circumstances which precluded the 
possibility of alteration in the vessel's load water 
line length being made ; and I should have broken 
off the contest and refused to carry out my agree- 
ment on the ground of a charge which it was 
absolutely impossible for me to prove. I certainly 
could not assume such a position as that. More- 
over, nothing was to be gained by refusing to start. 
My object would have been as entirely attained had 
the vessels been taken charge of and re-measured 
after the race, as if they had been taken charge of 
and re-measured before the race. 

' ' I had no means of ascertaining what the Com- 
mittee intended to do or had done; and when the 
order came that we were to go up to the Erie Basin 
to be re-measured the next day, would it not have 
been rather childish to have broken off the contest 
on the ground that such re-measurement would be 
no evidence of the justice of my complaint. Bear 
in mind, also, that one great point was gained ; the 
vessels were ordered to be plainly and visibly 



45 



marked externally. Under these circumstances I 
was quite content to continue the contest and I 
think I was right to do so. 

"Now, gentlemen, is it not strange that if my 
complaint can legitimately bear the heinous com- 
plexion now placed upon it, no indignation was ex- 
pressed when it was made last September? Why 
was it not commented upon last October when the 
New York Yacht Club made my complaint public 
to the world? Why does this storm of indignation 
arise when I mention the facts, as surely I have a 
right to do? I cannot grasp the situation. The 
managing owner of Defender has, in a letter read 
at a large meeting of the New York Yacht Club 
last Monday, assumed full responsibility and says 
that he is standing before the world solemnly 
charged by me with a most base offense, and in- 
vokes a vindication of the honor of the owners 
of Defender, of the New York Yacht Club and of 
the nation. I am sorry for this attitude on Mr. 
Iselin's part, I greatly deprecate the introduction 
of the personal element into an enquiry as to fact, 
but I cannot help it, and of course I do not agree 
with Mr. Iselin. An enquiry is to be made by the 
club. I am afraid that, after the lapse of two 
months, no definite results can possibly be arrived 
at, but, as I have already offered to the New York 
Yacht Club, I will at any inconvenience to myself, 
do my best to assist the Club, even if it involves 
my going over to America. 

' ' The New York Yacht Club will do its utmost 
to sift the matter thoroughly and impartially ; but 
as, after all, my bona fides is of some little impor- 
tance to me, I think it was perhaps superfluous on 
Mr. Iselin's part to endeavor, in eloquent language, 
to persuade the Club that the honor of the gentle- 
men connected with the Defender, the honor of 
the Club, and the honor of the whole country de- 
pended upon the result of their decision." 

Then he goes on upon matters that I do not 



46 



think I need read, more of local interest to Car- 
diff. 

Mr. Rives: You will furnish us with a copy, 
won't you? 

Mr. Aslcwith : I will. 

Mr. Choate : I find in what purports to be a 
copy of a part of that speech, published in one of 
our newspapers, this statement : "I myself, in the 
presence of three or four gentlemen, had a long 
conversation on the subject with Mr. Iselin, and 
there was no attempt at concealment and every one 
on board the Valkyrie knew of my complaint. 
Every one on board the Defender knew of my com- 
plaint." 

Lord Dunr avert : That is a mistake and Mr. 
Iselin's name is introduced instead of Mr. Hyslop's. 
It was the official measurer. 

Mr. Aslcwith : After consultation with Lord Dun- 
raven, I think it might be the most simple way 
if I read this sworn declaration of his and hand it 
in, and then that the Commission should ask such 
questions as they desire upon the matter. 

The Chairman : Is there any objection on the 
part of Mr. Iselin to the introduction of this writ- 
ten declaration, or affidavit — I don't know quite 
what it is — of Lord Dunraven? 

Mr. Choate : None whatever. It may be neces- 
sary for us to have an opportunity to peruse it, 
beyond the mere hearing. One cannot always take 
in all that is read. Before anything that is in the 
nature of evidence is taken, I would like to ask 
whether formal notice has been given to the Cup 
Committee, whom I do not at all represent, to 
attend this investigation. I ask this because a 
good many matters that are new appear to have 
been brought out in the statement already made, 
affecting them to a certain extent. That is, new so 
far as any previously printed matter has gone. 

Mr. Hives : No formal notice has been given to 
the Cup Committee to attend this hearing. 



47 



Mr. Choate : Evidently the investigation is sup- 
posed by Lord Dunraven to include a considerable 
controversy with the Cup Committee. I suppose 
so from the statement. That part of it in which 
Mr. Iselin is involved is very narrow and is capable, 
as we suppose, of very distinct proof. 

Mr. Astcwith : I do not quite understand whether 
this statement that the Cup Committee have 
already made, is put in as evidence by them, or is 
part of the evidence which this Commission would 
say that they have taken. 

Mr. Choate : What attracted my attention par- 
ticularly was the charge in reference to the Cup 
Committee, that they had violated an agreement 
that this matter should not be further published, 
which certainly I do not observe in any previous 
publication. 

Mr. Askwith: I think that is putting it too 
strong. The understanding upon our part was 
that there was an arrangement. 

Mr. Choate : That no publication should be made 
on either side. 

Mr. AsJcwlth : Yes. I might perhaps point out 
that it is not exactly one of the charges that is 
made in the pamphlet. That would pertain to the 
suggestion that Lord Dunraven had delayed and 
unduly delayed his statement published on Novem- 
ber 9th. It only pertains really to that as one of 
the reasons he is entitled to give why it was so de- 
layed, that he understood that no statement was to 
be made or would be made on either side of the 
Atlantic. The statement was first made here, and 
then he made his statement in England. 

The Chairman : The Committee think it would 
be proper to notify the Cup Committee of what 
has taken place here this morning. If they choose 
to appear we should, of course, hear them. It 
will be for them to say whether they desire to be 
heard. The question now is whether Lord Dun- 



48 



raven's statement shall be made viva voce, the ordi- 
nary way in which witnesses testify when they are 
present, or by a written paper. 

Mr. Ashwith : I was proposing to read this as 
his statement, which would be similar to what he 
would give viva voce, and to ask one or two sup- 
plemental questions upon a matter which we for 
the first time knew yesterday, contained in the re- 
port of the America's Cup Committee and in the 
statement of December 14th. 

The Chairman : That will give Mr. Iselin, or his 
counsel, an opportunity to put questions on their 
side to Lord Dunraven. 

Mr. Askwith : Lord Dunraven expresses himself 
perfectly ready to answer questions. 

The Chairman : The Committee have no objec- 
tions to hearing this paper. 

Mr. Askwith : He also understands that the 
Committee themselves ask questions upon any mat- 
ter which is in doubt in their minds. 

The Chairman : We will hear that paper, Mr. 
Ask with. 

Mr. AsJcwith : The following is the statement : 

I, Wyndham Thomas Wyndham Quiisr, Eael 
of Duneavejst and Mounteael do solemnly and 
sincely declare as follows : 

I am the managing owner of the yacht Val- 
kyrie and on the 28th August One thousand eight 
hundred and ninety five, I arrived in New York 
for the purpose of racing against the Defender for 
the America cup. 

On the thirty-first August One thousand eight 
hundred and ninety-five, I was on board of Val- 
kyrie in the Erie basin. Defender came into the 
basin and lay close to us for some time previous to 
going into the dock that being the first occasion on 
which I had an opportunity of seeing her in smooth 
water and close to, I observed her very closely and 
carefully noticed her trim, her line of immersion 



49 



and general appearance. I again saw the Defender 
on sixth September when she was in the Erie Basin 
for the pnrpose of measurement. 

I was then on board the Valkyrie and the vessels 
occupied relatively the same positions as on the 
thirty-first of August. I noticed at once that the 
Defender was floating much lighter than when I 
saw her on the thirty-first of August. 

I myself carefully looked at the port side of the 
Defender the starboard side being next the Quay 
and so not visible and I specially noticed an outlet 
hole about midships which was just cut by the 
water a little above the base. The hole was rather 
more than an inch in diameter. 

I also distinctly noticed the line of bronze plat- 
ing and also the bobstay bolt. Mr. Watson was 
on board Defender before she was measured and 
immediately on his return from the Defender he 
also pointed out to me the pipe hole and the bronze 
plating and the bobstay bolt indicating the flota- 
tion line of the Defender and we both distinctly 
saw them. 

Both yachts lay inside Sandy Hook on the night 
of the sixth and I slept on board the City of Bridge- 
port which lay a short distance from the Valkyrie. 

I noticed Hattie Palmer lying alongside the De- 
fender. 

About half past six in the morning of the seventh 
September I was awakened by Mr. Grlennie who re- 
quested me to come up and look at Defender I 
looked at her carefully through a pair of glasses 
and I was convinced that she was lying deeper in 
the water than when measured. At that time the 
Hattie Palmer was lying alongside Defender and 
remained until about nine o'clock when I went in 
the Gig to put Mr. Henderson on board the De- 
fender as my representative. 

I then inspected the Defender with great care to 
see whether the pipe hole and other marks which I 



50 



had previously observed were in the same position 
as when she was measured. 

The outlet hole on the Port side was nowhere 
visible above the water and in my judgment and 
belief the line of bronze plating and the bobstay 
bolt were nearer to the water than when she was 
measured. Judging from the fact that the pipe 
hole was immersed and by the position of the 
bronze plating and bobstay bolt I came to the con- 
clusion which I still believe to be a true conclusion 
that the vessel was immersed three or four inches 
deeper in the water than when she was measured. 

I also looked carefully at the general trim of the 
Defender. She was lying true on the water and 
had no list to port or starboard. 

In forming the aforesaid conclusion I also took 
into account the general appearance of the De- 
fender and her trim in addition to the other mat- 
ters before mentioned. 

I then returned to the Yalkyrie and just as we 
were towing out to the start Mr. Latham Fish a 
member of the Cup Committee came on board as 
the representative of Defender. I immediately 
stated to him that I was sure Defender was not 
sailing on her measured length but was more deeply 
immersed. I further stated I was positively cer- 
tain Defender was sailing at least a foot beyond 
her proper length and I gave Mr. Fish my reasons 
for that conclusion. 

Mr. Fish asked me what I wished to be done. I 
said that I wished the Committee to put one of 
their members or some reliable representative on 
board each of the yachts immediately after the 
race and that they should be remeasured the same 
evening if possible but that if that were impossible 
that the representatives of the Cup Committee 
should remain on board the Yachts until re- 
measurement took place. I also asked that the 
Load Water Line should be marked on both ships 
externally so as to be plainly visible and that the 



51 



Committee should take any other steps they 
thought desirable to insure that the Yachts should 
not exceed their Load Water Line length when 
racing. 

Mr. Fish promised to lay my complaint and re- 
quests before the Committee and I undertook to 
put him on board the Committee boat immediately 
after the race for the purpose of doing so. I told 
Mr. Glennie and other Gentlemen on board the 
yacht what I had done. 

I immediately after the race put Mr. Fish on 
board the Committee Boat for the purpose of lay- 
ing my complaint and requests before the Commit- 
tee and I waited with Valkyrie for a short time 
near the Committee Boat but I received no com- 
munication from the Committee and as it was get- 
ting dark and as Defender had already been towed 
away to Bay Ridge I went there also with Valkyrie 
and the City of Bridgeport. The Hattie Palmer 
was lying alongside Defender that night also. Both 
vessels were remeasured on the following afternoon 
and their load Water line was found to be the same 
as when originally measured the Load Water line 
was. 

And I make this solemn declaration conscien- 
tiously believing the same to be true and by virtue 
of the Statutory Declaration Act 1835. 

(Signed) Dunraven. 

Declared at No. 11 Ely Place 
Holborn in the County of Lon- 
don this 10th day of December 
1895 Before me 

Wm. Jaqites : 
Commissioner of Oaths. 



52 



Mr. Hives : Perhaps, I had better give this to 
Mr. Choate (referring to deposition) : 

Mr. AsJcwitJi ; If you would. This statement is 
dated 10th December, 1895. 

Lord Dunraven : One correction I wish to make 
in that which is a matter of detail. I state there 
that I went up to Bay Ridge with Valkyrie and 
the City of Bridgeport. As a matter of fact the 
Va]kyrie was towed up by one of the Luckenback 
tngs, and the City of Bridgeport followed up to 
Bay Ridge, getting there about 10 o'clock at 
night. 

Mr. AsJcwith ; There are two or three questions I 
should like to ask of Lord Dunraven. 

Loed Duneaven then took the witness chair 
and was interrogated by Mr. Askwith as follows : 

Q. The question I was going to ask you was, 
what do you contest in the statement of December 
14th, as far as your knowledge goes, with regard to 
an arrangement being made before the first race was 
sailed, that the yachts should be re-measured upon 
September 8th? Will you read, in the state- 
ment of December 14th, the exact words? A. 
" September 6th the yachts had agreed to be at 
Erie Basin for measurement." 

Q. No; it is lower down? A. "It was found 
that Yalkyrie had been measured and taken out 
of the Basin, and that it would be impossible for 
her on account of the tide to return and be marked 
that day." 

Q. It goes on : "It was therefore arranged with 
Lord Dunraven and Mr. Iselin, that the yachts 
should be marked as the former requested, on the 
morning of the day following the first race, and 
that the representatives from each side should be 
present." Was any arrangement made, to your 
knowledge, with you, or any of your representa- 
tives, as to the yachts being marked on the morn- 
ing of the day following the first race? A. No; 



53 



no arrangement of the kind was made to my knowl- 
edge with me, or to my knowledge with anybody 
on board the Yalkyrie. The first I heard of it 
was when I saw it yesterday afternoon in this pub- 
lication. 

Q. And in the report of the New York Yacht 
Club the same arrangement is referred to. Does 
the same remark apply to the words that are there 
used? A. Oh, yes; quite so. ''Arranged with 
Lord Dunraven and Mr. Iselin, and the representa- 
tives of each side, that the yachts should be 
marked on the day following the first race." The 
same answer applies to that. I had no knowledge 
whatever of it. 

Q. And in regard to your conversation with Mr. 
Latham Fish, is that conversation set out fully in 
the pamphlet which you published in November? 
A. Yes. 

Q. There is a letter here, which is published in 
the pamphlet at page 5, to Mr. Canfield, which is 
there dated September 5th? A. Yes. 

Q. In the statement, or the report, I am not quite 
sure which, the same letter is quoted bearing date 
September 6th. Have you found, in the copies 
which you have of that letter, that the date of 
September 5th is inserted? A. Yes; the letter is 
dated in the copy September 5th. 

Q. And is it in your mind that the letter was 
written and sent on September 5th? A. Yes. 

The Chairman : Are you referring to a press 
copy, Mr. Askwith? 

Mr. AsTcwith : I have a copy here. 
Lord Dunraven : That is a typewritten copy, 
I think. 

Mr. Choate : The original of the letter is 
here. 

Mr. Aslcwith : Of course it is possible 

Lord Dunraven : That is probably capable 
of being reconciled, the discrepancy. 

Mr. Choate : It appears to be dated Sep tern- 



54 



ber 6th, if that is the one (referring to original 
letter). 
Q. If it was sent on the 6th, would it have been 
sent early in the morning of the 6th? A. I should 
think so. I think it must be wrongly dated, the 
letter, or presume I sent it by hand early in 
the morning, because I left the dock on that 
day at about 9 or half -past 9 o'clock in the morn- 
ing with a tug to go down to Bay Ridge; so 
that my impression is either that I sent the letter 
by hand early in the morning, or that I put the 
wrong date in the letter. I don't know when the 
letter was received. 

Mr. AsJcwith .- I don't think I have any 

further question to ask of Lord Dunraven. 

He will add anything further that he would 

like to say. I may ask him this. 

Q. You have heard the statements that I made 

before the Committee? A. Yes. 

Q. Do you generally endorse that as the view 
which you take upon the matter in question? A. 
Yes. 

Mr. Choate : Do I understand the Commit- 
tee that I may ask some questions? 
The Qliairman : Yes, sir; certainly. 
Q. {By Mr. Choate.) Lord Dunraven, did the 
fact that the Defender, or your belief that the 
Defender had sailed on the 7th more deeply 
immersed than when measured have anything to 
do in your own mind with your final withdrawal 
from the race? A. No, sir. 

Q. Did you then believe that a fraud had been 
committed on the Defender in causing her to 
be more deeply immersed on the 7th when she 
raced than when measured on the 6th? A. That 
is rather a question of definition of the term. The 
statement that I made was that the vessel was 
immersed deeper than when she was measured. 
Whether that is to be defined as a fraud or 
not 



55 



Q. If you have no objection, I should like to have 
you say whether you then believed a fraud had 
been committed on the Defender, or on the part 
of the Defender, on the first day's race? A. I 
believed that the vessel was immersed deeper in 
the water. How it was done I express no opinion. 

Q. Did you believe that it was done by fraud or 
done by mistake? A. I stated that it was possible 
or probable that a mistake had been made and that 
all the weight put into the vessel had not been 
taken out. That possibly might have been the 
case. 

Q. Did you have a realizing sense of the charge 
that was involved in the statement which you 
made? A. Oh, certainly. You mean did I re- 
alize that it is possible that what is designated 
as a fraud might have been perpetrated by some 
one? 

Q. Yes? A. Certainly. 

Q. And the extent of it? A. What do you 
mean by the extent of it ? 

Q. How deliberate and intentional it had been? 
A. I don't know about the deliberation, but I quite 
realized the facts that the complaints that I made 
involved the possibility that some person had in 
tentionally altered the water-line length of the 
vessel. 

Q. Did you know what the measurement of her 
load water line length had been on the 6th in the 
Erie Basin? A. Yes. 

Q. Did you know that it was 89 feet and y^o ? 
A. Well, 1 cannot say now. 

Q. Well, you knew what it was? A. I knew 
at the time. I don't know what it was now. 

Mr. Choate : That I believe is the measure- 
ment. 

Mr. AsTcwith: You will find it stated at 
page 37 of the report. 

Mr. Choate : Page 37 of which report? 
Mr. Whitney : Of this book (indicating). 



56 



Mr. Choate : The L. W. L. length of the 
Valkyrie appears to have been 88-j^j- feet, and 
of the Defender 88 T Vo- 

Lord Dunraven : Very likely. I don't re- 
member now. 

Q. Now it appears by your statement that you 
complained to Mr. Fish on the morning of the 7th 
that she exceeded that day her measured length by 
about a foot. Do you remember that ? A. Yes. 

Q. So that as it appeared to your eyesight that 
was about the amount she did exceed her measured 
length ? I m ean on her water line ? A . That would 
be about the length to which I imagined or thought 
it would exceed her measured length ; equivalent to 
the increased immersion which I believed existed. 
That is to say, that in my opinion — of course I did 
not calculate it out — the vessel being three inches 
deeper in the water, it would have made her about 
a foot longer. 

Q. Did you form any accurate idea as you ap- 
proached her to put Mr. Henderson on board, of 
how much deeper she was in the water than when 
measured? A. Three or four inches, I think. 

Q. I see that it was originally stated in this 
statement to be four inches, then the words " three 
or" were afterwards inserted and before signing? 
A. I think I used to Mr. Fish the expression three 
or four, and subsequently I used the expression 
about four. Three or four I think was my original 
estimate. 

Q. When you formed that judgment did you 
know how much her load water line length would 
be increased by every inch of immersion? A. No, 
not exactly ; only my own rough guess at it. 

Q. Did you know how much weight or ballast it 
would require to be introduced into her to immerse 
her three or four inches? A. No. 

Q. Did you have any idea on the subject? A. 
Only a rough, general idea. 

Q. Well, how much did you suppose would have 



57 



to be introduced into her to immerse her four 
inches deeper than she was when measured? A. 
Four inches ? 

Q. Yes? A. I should suppose about 12 or 13 
tons. 

Q. But you did not suppose that that would 
lengthen her load water line more than a foot? A. 
What I said was three or four inches. 

Q. Three or four inches? A. Generally speak- 
ing, judging by the eye and roughly calculating, I 
should think about a foot. It is impossible for me 
to give anything like a definite reply to this 
question. 

Q. You knew it was capable of being definitely 
and mathematically ascertained, did you not? A. 
Yes, I should suppose so. 

Q. Does not your judgment involve the conclu- 
sion on your part that 12 or 14 tons had been 
secretly put on board of her ? A. No, certainly not. 

Q. How much? A. If you assume that the 
alteration in immersion was made by lead, 
and take my lowest estimate of 3 inches, of 
course it would take, I should imagine, about 9 
or 10 tons. I have nowhere stated that I believed 
the immersion was caused by the introduction of 
ballast, lead. 

Q. Introduction of something ? A. Introduction 
of something. 

Q. That would weigh 9 or 10 tons? A. Certainly. 

Q. But you never formed any ideas as to what 
was introduced? A. No. 

Q. But your belief was that some substance or 
substances to the amount of 9 or 10 tons had been 
secretly introduced into her after she was meas- 
ured, and before you saw her on the morning of 
the 7th? A. Yes ; that a weight of 9 or 10 tons 
had probably been introduced into the vessel. But I 
should like to say that speaking of 3 or 4 inches of 
course is more or less vague. I was judging by 
the eye solely and cannot be tied down to a definite 



58 



statement that the vessel was sunk 3 inches. It 
might have been 2 inches and J or 2|-. Of course 
I was merely judging as well as I could by the eye ; 
also if the vessel's trim was altered, as well as her 
depth in the water increased, the draught of water 
increased, that would probably give the appearance 
of her being bodily immersed more than she was. 

Q. Well, you have stated in your public state- 
ment that on the occasion of putting Mr. Hender- 
son on board not only that you felt perfectly 
certain that the Defender was immersed deeper 
than when measured, ' ' but that she was in my 
deliberate opinion floating about four inches deeper 
in the water than when measured. ' ' That is correct, 
isn't it? A. Yes. 

Q. Well, you didn't think that could have been 
innocently or accidentally done, did you? A. To 
sink her four inches would require too much ballast 
to be done accidentally. I should think so, yes. 

Q. Then you were in your own mind convinced 
that it was fraudulent? A. Fraudulent? 

Q. Yes? A. Well, there are definitions of fraud. 
It is perhaps not quite an easy matter to say. 

Q. Well, dishonest? A. Dishonest? I should 
prefer to put it as contrary to the rules under which 
the vessel was sailing. 

Q. And with an intent on some one's part to de- 
fraud the Valkyrie in the race? A. I beg your 
pardon? 

Q. With intent on somebody's part to defraud 
the Valkyrie in the race? A. No, I should not 
put it in that way. It may be fairly accurate. 
With an object, if it was done intentionally, of 
benefiting the Defender in the race. 

Q. At the expense of the Valkyrie? A. Of 
course it would be at the expense of the Valky- 
rie. 

Q. Can you describe that otherwise than as an 
intent to cheat and defraud? A. Cheat in the 
ordinary sense of the word, certainly. 



59 



Q. Now, in your statement it appears that you 
told Mr. Fish that you thought some mistake had 
been made? A. Yes. 

Q. You did not mean mistake, did you? A. 
Well, I put the matter so it would be understood 
in the softest way I could put it ; only the possi 
bility of mistake. Of course I did not know what 
amount of material was generally removed from the 
Defender to the Hattie Palmer, and backward 
and forward, but it must have been a considerable 
amount. 

Q. Before you signed the agreement, which I 
believe was on the 4th of September, had you re- 
ceived any intimation that the Defender had 
or would probably resort to some such device? A. 
I don't know that I agree with you that the agree- 
ment was signed on the 4th. That is a mere matter 
of detail. 

Q. I will omit that. Prior to the signing of the 
agreement had you received any intimation from 
any quarter that the Defender had, or probably 
would resort to some such device? A. No, no, 
nothing that could be called information or intima- 
tion. 

Q. Had suspicions to that effect been conveyed 
to you? A. I have had one or two letters, to which 
I attached no importance. 

Q. Did they convey suspicions against the De- 
fender? A. You mean did they cause suspicions? 

Q. Cause in your mind a suspicion that either in 
the races — the preliminary races — she had resorted 
to some such device, or would in the Cup races? 
A. No. 

Q. And conveyed to your mind no suspicion in 
regard to her? A. No. 

Q. Was there more than one conversation that 
you had with Mr. Fish on board the Valkyrie 
on the 7th? A. On this particular subject? 

Q. Yes? A. No. 

Q. Quite sure? A. To the best of my recollec- 



60 



tion only one. I don't think I alluded to the sub- 
ject at all again to Mr. Fish. 

Q. Did not Mr. Fish, after you had had your 
conversation with him in the morning, and much 
later in the day, say to you that it was too impor- 
tant a matter to be conveyed simply by word of 
mouth? A. No. 

Q. What? A. No. 

Q. Did he ask you subsequently during the day 
to repeat what you had said? A. No; not to my 
recollection. 

Q. Let me see if I cannot refresh your recollec- 
tion. Did he not take pencil and paper and ask 
you again to say what you had said? A. No; Mr. 
Fish made some pencil notes. I think that was at 
the time of the first conversation — the only conver- 
sation I had with him. 

Q. He did have a pencil and paper then? A. 
Yes. 

Q. That was after you had A. I won't say 

whether it was a piece of paper Mr. Fish wrote on, 
or his shirt cuff. I did not agree to supply him 
with any paper and it may have been a newspaper. 

Q. What passed between you and him to your 
recollection, about the paper, and what he wrote on 
it, or his shirt sleeve, if it was that? A. I think 
Mr. Fish asked me if I could give him any paper 
to make a note of what I was saying, but we had 
no writing materials on board the ship. I think 
Mr. Fish made a note of some kind, on, as I say, a 
bit of newspaper or something. 

Q. He did not do that, did he, until after you 
had stated to him what you had to complain of? 
A. Yes ; at the time. 

Q. As you spoke did he write? A. As we were 
sitting and talking, certainly. It may have been 
a minute or two after I had spoke, or while I was 
absolutely talking on the subject. There was no 
lapse of time. 



61 



Q. Do you remember his reading what he wrote ? 
A. What? 

Q. Do you remember his reading as he wrote, 
what he wrote? A. No. 

Q. You don't remember whether he did or not? 
A. No, I don't think he did. 

Q. Do you think if you saw that paper you 
would recognize it? A. No. 

Q. Or would know where the paper came from? 
A. No. 

Q. Did you produce the paper or he? A. I don't 
think I did ; I don't know. I think Mr. Fish may 
have produced it himself, or somebody may have 
given him the back of a letter. Really, I don't re- 
member. 

Mr. AsTcwith : Will you produce it? 
Mr. Choate : It is in the possession of Mr. 
Smith, and it will be produced. 

Q. Can you recall the exact language that you 
used to him ? A. Not more exactly than I have 
stated it in the pamphlet and in the deposition. 

Q. Isn't it correct to say that it has been stated 
by you with some variation three or four times? 
In your statement to-day you said, "Mr. Fish 
asked me what I wished to be done. I said that I 
wished the Committee to put one of their members 
or some reliable representative on board each of the 
yachts immediately after the race." Is that as 
nearly as you can recall exactly what you said? 
A. Yes. 

Q. In another form you have stated that you re- 
quested them to take charge of the yachts? A. 
Yes. 

Q. Meaning substantially the same thing? A. 
Yes. 

Q. Can you any more accurately now recall the 
exact expression that you used? A. No. 

Q. Your idea, I suppose was, that there should 
be some representative either of the Cup Committee 
or of the other party, on board each vessel to see 



62 



that nothing was taken out of her before she was 
measured again? A. Quite so. 

Q. And you thought there was no other possible 
mode of ascertaining whether something had been 
put into her, this nine or ten tons, after she was 
measured before? A. Quite so. 

Q. Did you think that nine or ten tons of any 
material could be loaded on board the Defender 
after she was measured and before the race, with- 
out its being known to a very considerable number 
of people? A. Lead could not be loaded, of course, 
without its being known to a considerable number 
of people. I presume water might be introduced 
without its being known to a number of people. 

Q. Did you believe that water had been intro- 
duced? A. I really had no opinion as to what was 
done. 

Q. Had you any intimation from any of your 
friends or acquaintances that the Defender at any 
time had, by the use of water ballast, accomplished 
any such thing? A. No. 

Q. Now to come back to the original measure- 
ment on the 6th of September, that was Friday, 
what time in the day was the Defender measured? 
A. What time? 

Q. Yes? A. Well, as I can recollect, I should 
think about noon. 

Q. You were present? A. I was in the Basin. 

Q. How far away from the Defender? A. I 
should think about — I don't know what the width 
of the Basin is. I suppose about 20 yards, per- 
haps not so much. 

Q. About how far? A. 15 or 20 yards, I should 
think. 

Q. And at any time that day were you on board 
the Defender? A. No. 

Q. You were on the Valkyrie? A. I was on 
the Valkyrie when she was measured and then 
on the City of Bridgeport. 

Q. Now, the Valkyrie had some lead ballast 



63 



on the cabin floor, had she not, when she was 
measured? A. Yes. 

Q. How much? A. Well, I don't remember. 

Q. And that, of course, was not left on the cabin 
floor during the race? A. No; it was put below. 

Q. Did you have any representative upon the 
Defender when she was measured? A. Yes. 

Q. Who was there? A. Mr. Watson. 

Q. And there at your request? A. Yes; it was 
arranged, I think the Committee will remember, 
that Mr. Watson was to be on board the De- 
fender, and Mr. Herreshoff on board the Val- 
kyrie. 

Q. {By the Chairman.) Who was on board the 
Valkyrie? A. Mr. Herreshoff. 

Q. {By Mr. Choate.) At this time you were 
satisfied that she was floating considerably higher 
than when you had seen her on the 31st of August? 
A. Yes. 

Q. Then you were of the opinion that some 
weights had been taken out of her and not replaced? 
A. She had been lightened up, yes. 

Q. Do you think that on the model of the De- 
fender you could point out to the Committee 
what you observed that day in regard to the bob- 
stay iron and the pipe? A. What do you mean? 

Q. You did observe that day, did you not, some- 
thing about those? A. Yes. 

Q. As leading you to determine that she was 
floating higher than on the 31st. I should like to 
have that model brought forward? A. Will you 
repeat that, for I do not quite follow you? 

Q. You are speaking in your statement to-day of 
what you observed on the 6th, as I understand it? 
A. Yes. 

Q. When she was in the Erie Basin for the pur- 
pose of measurement? A. Yes. 

Q. You were then on board the Valkyrie and 
the vessels occupied relatively the same position as 
on the 31st of August. " I noticed at once that the 



64 



Defender was floating much higher than when I 
saw her on the 31st of August. I most carefully- 
looked at the port side of the Defender, the star- 
board side being next the quay, and so not visi- 
ble, and I specially noticed an outlet hole about 
amidships which was just cut by the water, a little 
above the base." What I want you to do is to show 
that, if you will, to the Committee? A. You mean 
to say to indicate to the Committee the difference 
which I think was made in the vessel's trim on that 
day? 

Q. I want particularly to find out that hole if we 
can. I believe all the holes there are indicated. 

Mr. Iselin : No ; they are not indicated on 
that model. 

Q. Do you know that there is more than one 
hole on the port side; one pipe hole? A. No, there 
was only one that I noticed. 

Q. {By Mr. Bives.) Whereabouts was that? A. 
I should think that was about under the runner. 

Q. Under the mast head runner? A. Yes, I 
should think so. 

Q. {By Mr. Choate.) Well, supposing that there 
are in fact two, did you see two on that day? A. No. 

Q. Yon saw only one? A. I saw but one. 

Q. And that was about amidships, just cut by 
the water? A. Yes. 

Q. That is, the lower edge of the pipe just 
touched the water? A. Yes. 

Q. " Just cut by the water a little above the 
base." What do you exactly mean by that? A. 
A little above the base? 

Q. Yes? A. Cut by the water a little above the 
lower edge of the pipe. 

Q. And it was a hole rather more than an inch 
in diameter. Now, where was this bobstay iron or 
bolt? A. How do you mean, where was it? 

Q. Whereabouts on the Defender. It was not 
amidships, was it? A. No, it was not amid- 
ships. 



65 



Q. It was away forward. Would you indicate 
about where it was? A. The bobstay bolt was 
here somewhere (indicating). 

Q. Yes, away forward. So that a slight de- 
pression of the bownn the water would consider- 
ably change the relation of that bobstay bolt to the 
water? A. Yes, a depression of course would 
bring it nearer the water. 

Q. {By Mr. Rives.) How high above the water 
was it at that time? A. When she came to be 
measured ? 

Q. Yes? A. Well, very roughly speaking I 
should think 12 or 14 inches. It was about the 
same distance above where the plates appeared 
above the water, and appeared to me to be very, 
very high, but of course I have no accurate idea. 

Q. {By Mr. Choate.) About how high did you 
think it was when you first saw her on the 31st of 
August? A. Well, I should think perhaps 8 
inches or so. It struck me when I first saw her 
that the bobstay bolt was higher than usual above 
water and very, very much higher above water 
when I saw her the second time. 

Q. How far was it above the water when you 
saw her the morning of the 7th, down at the Horse- 
shoe? A. I should think about 12 or 14 inches,* 
but that is of coarse a mere estimate of what the 
perpendicular height would be. 

Q. What time did you arrive, or were you towed 
down to the Horseshoe on the evening of the 6th 
or morning of the 7th? A. We went down to the 
Horseshoe, I think we got down there about six 
o'clock, somewhere thereabouts. 

Q. And how far away from the Defender did you 
anchor, or lay? A. The Defender came after us. 

Q. How near to you did she come? A. I should 
say about 200 yards. 

Q. Were the two yachts ever nearer together 

*Lord Dunraven, on page 95, corrects this statement to "eight 
or nine or ten inches." 



66 

before the race began than this 200 yards? A. 

Which do you mean, the Yalkyrie and the 

Q. The Valkyrie and the Defender? A. You 
asked me how far the Valkyrie was from the De- 
fender? 

Q. When you lay to down there, or anchored, or 
wherever you were? A. I was not on the Val- 
kyrie, but on the City of Bridgeport. 

Q. The City of Bridgeport was alongside the 
Valkyrie? A. No. 

Q. She was the tender of the Valkyrie? A. 
Yes. 

Q. Now, where did the City of Bridgeport 
go when she left the Valkyrie? A. She went 

down Do you mean the relative positions of the 

two vessels when they were brought here? 

Mr. Whitney: You mean the morning of 
the race? 

Mr. Choate: I mean on the morning of the 
7th. 

Mr. Whitney: When they were anchored? 

Lord Dunraven: My impression is the 

Valkyrie was nearer the Defender than the 

City of Bridgeport. 

Q. Then, how far away were you when Mr. 

Glennie woke you up and you came on deck and 

looked out with your glasses? A. About 200 

yards, I said before, when I was referring to the 

distance I was from them. 

Q. How was the water that morning? A. Smooth. 
Q. Entirely? A. Not as smooth as it is in the 
dock. 

Q. Not as smooth as in the Erie Basin, of course? 
A. No. 

Q. Do you remember how the wind was ? A. 
No ; not to speak definitely. I dare say I could 
recall it to my memory, because we had to tow 
down to the southward to start that day. 

Mr. Mives: I have here a statement from 
the advance sheets of the New York Yacht 



67 



Club Committee's report, giving the direction 
of the wind that morning. 

Mr. Choate : You can show that, then. 
Mr. Hives: "Wind, 10.50 a.m., was north- 
east, and, therefore, according to agreement, 
starting line was shifted from the Light Ship. 
Compass course for going out, east by south." 
Mr. Whitney : You are speaking of a dif- 
ferent time ; earlier in the day ? 
Mr. Choate : Yes. 
Q. Do you recollect, with the light now thrown 
upon it, the wind at half -past ten, how it was at 
half-past six and how the water was? A. The 
water was quite smooth, and I think the wind may 
have been northeast. However, I do not dispute 
the facts. As a matter of fact there was scarcely 
any wind at all. 

Q. What did Mr. Glennie say when he called 
you? A. He asked me to get up and look at the 
Defender. 

Q. Without saying anything about what he had 
himself noticed? A. Oh, yes; that she appeared 
to be much deeper in the water. 

Q. Than when? A. Than when measured. 
Q. He said that to you before you came out and 
took your glasses to look? A. Yes. 

Q. Was the port side or starboard side then ex- 
posed to you; the Defender's? A. The starboard 
side. 

Q. Well, with your glasses, you did not look for 
these special marks on the bobstay bolt and the 
pipe and the bronze plating at all? A. Where? 

Q. Were they on the starboard side? A. The 
bobstay bolt was on one side as much as the other, 
the bronze plating also. 

Q. Well, this pipe? A. The pipe was on the far 
side. 

Q. On the far side? A. Yes. 
Q. And you didn't have any aid from that? A. 
No. 



68 



Q. Did yon with your glasses look at the bob- 
stay bolt? A. I looked at the vessel all over, yes. 

Q. Did j^ou look at the bobstay bolt? A. Yes. 

Q. You could see it with your glass, could you? 
A. I could see where the bobstay came into the 
stem, certainly ; I could see it without the glasses. 

Q. And you could see the marks of the bronze 
plating; how the bronze plating lay on the water? 
A. I could see the difference between the bronze 
and the aluminium. 

Q. Then you made up your mind very satisfac- 
torily, did you not, that she lay deeper in the water 
than when she was measured? A. Yes, I felt pretty 
sure she was. 

Q. And to what extent? A. I could not form 
anything like a definite opinion at that distance. 

Q. From that distance you could only form a 
general idea that she was deeper than when 
measured? A. Yes. 

Q. So that when you afterwards left the 
Valkyrie, as I suppose you did leave to put Mr. 
Henderson on board, you had no definite idea 
about it? A. No definite idea as to how much 
deeper she was. 

Q. Or how much her load water line had been 
lengthened? A. No, nothing beyond the general 
idea that she was considerably deeper. 

Q. And in your opinion could any judgment be 
formed — accurate judgment— as to that at the dis- 
tance of 200 yards as she lay in the water? A. 
Accurate as to what? 

Q. As to how much she had been immersed ; how 
much deeper she had been immersed and how much 
her load water line had been lengthened? A. I 
don't think any man looking at the vessel could 
say certainly, more than that she was very consider- 
ably deeper. 

Q. That would be rather a crude and rough 
opinion, wouldn't it? A. No, I think not very. 



69 



Q. Nothing very definite, certainly? A. No, 
not definite. 

Q. Then for any definite judgment you cannot 
rely upon the eyesight or opinion of any one on 
board the City of Bridgeport, or the Valkyrie, 
who did not approach the Defender more nearly? 
A. Not as to a definite statement. 

Q. As to whether the load water line had been 
lengthened one foot or three feet, or whether she 
had been immersed one inch or four inches deeper 
than when measured? A. Oh, yes; I don't quite 
agree with that. 

Q. Did you get any definite statement or opinion 
from anybody else on the Bridgeport or Val- 
kyrie, as to how much deeper she was immersed 
than when measured ? A. No. 

Q. You never could have got one? A. As to a 
definite amount? 

Q. Yes? A. I don't think so. 

Q. Or how much her load water line had been 
lengthened? A. That is a matter that I would 
sooner not put in that way, because I have no 
possibility of saying accurately at all how much 
the vessel was lengthened by every inch of im- 
mersion. 

Q. We shall be able to show that; but you have 
not got any information on the subject from any- 
body on the Valkyrie or Bridgeport? A. I beg 
your pardon? 

Q. You have no definite statement from any one 
on the Valkyrie or Bridgeport as to either of 
these points, how much deeper she was im- 
mersed, or how much her load water line was 
lengthened? A. You mean nobody has given me 
a definite statement that in their opinion she was 
so many inches deeper? 

Q. Immersed, or her load water line lengthened 
so many feet? A. I don't think so. 

Q. Then your whole statement rests on the general 
idea that you got, and that others might have got 



70 



from the distance where they were, on the City 
of Bridgeport and Valkyrie — Your whole state- 
ment rests upon your own observation as you ap- 
proached the Defender with Mr. Henderson to 
put him on board? A. I am not sure whether Mr. 
Ratsey and others, who mentioned it, made any 
estimate of the amount the vessel was immersed or 
not ; but as far as I am concerned, if you mean 
that I made this complaint that the vessel was im- 
mersed some three or four inches deeper, I made it 
on my own observation, yes. 

Q. And that, upon the only occasion you could 
see, was when you put Mr. Henderson on board 
the Defender? A. No; I don't say the only 
occasion I could see it, because I could see per- 
fectly well from the Valkyrie, that the vessel 
was considerably deeper in the water, and I did 
see enough to know that she was, we will say, 
more than the difference between one inch and 
three inches ; but, from the distance that I was, to 
make an accurate statement, approaching accuracy, 
as to the number of inches would have been im- 
possible ; but that she was somewhere three or four 
inches deeper I arrived at after I had had an op- 
portunity of inspecting her further. 

Q. What did you go in to take Mr. Henderson 
on board? A. I went in the gig. 

Q. Besides the men who rowed out, who else 
was in the gig besides yourself and Mr. Henderson ? 
A. Nobody, I think. 

Q. Was it necessary for you to go yourself? A. 
Not absolutely ; no. 

Q. Would you have gone but for what you had 
observed or seen about how the Defender lay in 
the water? A. I should think very probably not. 

Q. Your object in going yourself to put Hender- 
son on board was to observe narrowly the situa- 
tion? A. Yes, partially. 

Q. Do you remember which side you put Hen- 



71 



derson on board the Defender, on her port side 
or starboard? A. On her port side. 

Q. Did you row around the Defender before 
putting him on board or after leaving him? A. I 
rowed under her stern on the starboard side, and 
put Henderson on board on the port side, and 
then, having left him, rowed ahead of the vessel, 
if I remember right. 

Q. {By Mr. Rives.) Won't you tell us just how 
the vessels lay with reference to each other, begin- 
ning with the City of Bridgeport. How did 
the Defender bear from you by compass, about? 
A. My impression is that the Valkyrie was 
between the City of Bridgeport and Defender 
and a little ahead, the Defender, I think, clear 
of our stern. I think all the vessels were lying 
with their heads to the westward. 

Q. Heads to the westward? A. Yes. 

Q. Then the Defender was to the southward 
of the City of Bridgeport? A. The De- 
fender would be to the southward and west- 
ward. 

Q. With the Valkyrie between the Defender 
and the Bridgeport? A. Yes. 

Q. {By Mr. Choate.) You started with Mr. Hen- 
derson from the Valkyrie, or from the Bridgeport? 
A. From the Bridgeport. 

Q. Now, when Mr. Glennie woke you up in the 
morning and you looked with your glasses, was not 
the Hattie Palmer lying alongside the Defender 
and between you and the Defender? A. She 
was lying alongside of her, on the other side of 
her. 

Q. That is, her port side was exposed to you, 
and the Hattie Palmer was on the starboard 
side? A. The starboard side was exposed to me 
and the Hattie Palmer was on the port side. 

Q. Hasn't it been stated somewhere in your 
statement that the Hattie Palmer's presence 



72 



there interfered more or less with the view from 
where you were? A. Not by me. 

Q. When you looked out that morning? A. I 
have not said so. 

Q. Your present recollection is that the Hattie 
Palmer lay on the far side of the Defender? 
A. Yes. 

Mr. AsTcwith: Perhaps you are referring to 
page 8 of the pamphlet. 

Mr. Choate : " Both yachts lay inside Sandy 
Hook on Friday night. Defender's tender, 
the Hattie Palmer, lay alongside of her, and 
the crew were at work from dark to one in the 
morning. , ' Then it goes onto say afterwards, 
" When I put Mr. Henderson, my representa- 
tive, on board." 

Mr. Rives : This is before that. 
Mr. Whitney : Before that. " — On Saturday 
morning — ' ' 

Mr. Choate: " On Saturday morning early 
my attention was drawn by those on board the 
City of Bridgeport, including representatives 
of her American crew, to the fact that De- 
fender was visibly deeper in the water than 
when measured." 
Q. Now, you say at that time the Hattie 
Palmer lay on the far side of her? A. Yes; I 
think so. 

Q. You have made here a statement that the 
Defender's tender, the Hattie Palmer, lay along- 
side of her, and the crew were at work from 
dark to one in the morning. You mean the crew 
of the Hattie Palmer? A. I don't know whether 
the crew of the Hattie Palmer or Defender. I pre- 
sume the crew of the Defender. 

Q. How did you ascertain that time? A. That 
is not from my own observation ; simply from what 
I was told. 

Q. Who told you that? A. Men on the Val- 
kyrie. 



73 



Q. That the Hattie Palmer did not leave her 
until one o'clock in the morning? A. That was 
the impression given to me at the time, but I don't 
believe that was strictly accurate. 

Q. Did you have any conversation with Mr. 
Henderson on this subject, your representative, as 
you were approaching the Defender, or before 
you put him on board? A. No ; I don't think so. 

Q. He was going on her as your representative 
for the race that day, wasn't he? A. Yes. 

Q. And although you started with the impression 
that she was more deeply immersed than when 
measured, and ascertained for yourself that she was 
3 or 4 inches deeper as you approached the De- 
fender, you said nothing to him about it? A. I 
do not mean to imply that Mr. Henderson was not 
aware of my opinion. 

Q. I don't mean to ask that. I mean to ask 
whether you said anything to him about it when 
you approached the Defender and your impres- 
sions were verified? A. My reply is I do not think 
so. 

The Chairman : Mr. Choate, would it be 
convenient for you to stop now for luncheon? 
Mr. Choate : Certainly. 
The Chairman : Then we will take a recess 
until two o'clock. 



74 



New York, December 27, 1895. 

2 o'clock p. m. 

The Chairman : The Committee would like 
to know how late this afternoon gentlemen on 
the one side or the other would like to sit? 
What do you say, Mr. Choate? 

Mr. Choate : Our desire is to complete the 
investigation as soon as conveniently can be, 
and therefore we would like to. make a full 
afternoon. 

The Chairman : Is that agreeable to you, 
Mr. Ask with? 

Mr. AsJcwith : I am agreeable to sit as late 
as the Committee wish. 

Mr. Choate : I have seen by the papers that 
Lord Dunraven wants to return home, and 
both sides will be accommodated. 

The Chairman : We will sit, then, until six 
o'clock. 

Lord Dunraven resumed the stand. 
By Mr. Choate : 

Q. I want to go back and ask Lord Dunraven if 
he remembers stating to Mr. Fish that he had in- 
tended to write to the Committee on the subject 
officially? A. No, sir. 

Q. I want to show you the writing that Mr. Fish 
made, and see if you recognize that. Do you re- 
member whether there was any paper on board? 
A. I do not think so. 

Q. Did you see Mr. Fish writing? A. My im- 
pression is Mr. Fish was writing 

Q. I show you a paper and ask you if you recog- 
nize it? A. No; I could not recognize it. 

Q. Do you not remember that as Mr. Fish wrote 
he talked with you about what he was writing? 
A. No. 



75 



Q. I see inserted here after the words written 

apparently A. My impression is that Mr. 

Fish said something to the effect that he wonld like 
to note down what I suggested, or what I com- 
plained of. 

Q. And do yon not remember that he read it to 
you? A. No; I am pretty sure he did not. 

Q. And that you made the suggestions for alter- 
ing it? A. No. 

Q. I observe the words "his own and" written 
apparently after the first writing ' ' Lord Dunraven 
believes" — as it was at first — ' ' from the observa- 
tion of those on Valkyrie and City of Bridge- 
port, ' ' inserted ' ' his own and, ' ' making it read 
' ' from his own and the observation of those on 
Valkyrie and City of Bridgeport." Do you not 
remember that you suggested that? A. No. 

Q. Do you remember that you said to him that 
you wanted the words ' ' his own and ' ' inserted 
after the body of the paper was first written, be- 
cause you wanted it made stronger? A. No. 

Q. Do you not remember giving him these items 
of bob-stay, pipe, captain of Bridgeport, pilot, 
Glennie, Ratsey and Kersey, to add to what he 
had written? A. No; I remember giving him the 
items that you have mentioned, the bob-stay, and 
so on, in conversation. When I spoke to him 
about it I mentioned the various facts. 

Q. To come back where we were just before we 
went to lunch, did you not tell Mr. Henderson, your 
representative, what you thought about the immer- 
sion of the Defender, and did you not ask him 
to look out while on board to see what she had 
of ballast or weight? A. No; I have no recollec- 
tion of doing so. 

Q. Why did you not do that if you thought you 
had seen she was immersed four inches deeper than 
she ought to be? A. I have no doubt that Mr. 
Henderson — he was on board the City of Bridge- 
port, and doubtless he was quite aware of the fact, 



76 



but I have no recollection of asking him to make 
any special investigation. 

Q. He was not aware of the result of your per- 
sonal observation, as you came up and around the 
Defender, because you said nothing to him? A. 
No. 

Q. And yet you did not think to ask him to Look 
on board while he was on board and see what they 
did there? A. I do not think I made any special 
request to him to exercise any particular caution 
or investigation. 

Q. He was your representative merely to do what — 
for what purpose? A. To see that the race was 
sailed fairly and squarely, and matters of that 
kind. 

Q. Would not that be a part of his duties, then, 
to observe and see whether she was overloaded? A. 
No. To what extent do you mean? 

Q. That she was immersed four inches deeper and 
her load water line lengthened in proportion over 
what it had been in the Erie Basin on Friday? A. 
No ; I think not. 

Q. You sailed your race that day, and you put 
Mr. Fish, on the return, on board the Committee's 
boat. Was not that at his request, that he might 
be put on board as soon as possible to report what 
you had said? A. That was at my request. 

Q. Are you sure about that? A. Quite sure. 

Q. It did not first originate with him? A. No, 
it originated with me. Mr. Fish asked me what I 
would wish to be done. 

Q. When you put Mr. Fish on board the Com- 
mitte's boat, did you see the Defender, or do 
you know where she then was? A. My impression 
is the Defender went straight up to Bay Ridge. 

Q. Before you or after? A. Before us. 

Q. Then she was not anywhere near the Cup 
Committee's boat? A. I do not know. My im- 
pression is that she left pretty shortly after the 
conclusion of the race. 



77 



Q. In tow, I suppose? A. I think so, but I do 
not remember. 

Q. Where was the Valkyrie? A. When? 

Q. Did you use your gig again? A. No, we did 
not get out the gig. We put him on board with 
the dingey. 

Q. How near did the Valkyrie come to the 
Cup Committee's boat? A. I do not know. I sup- 
pose tolerably close. 

Q. It never occurred to you to try to persuade 
Mr. Fish to remain on your boat? A. No. 

Q. Did you want to have a man put on your boat 
from the Cup Committee's boat? A. We waited, 
I should think, about half an hour. 

Q. How near to the Cup Committee's boat? A. 
Oh, tolerably close to. I cannot say exactly. 

Q. Were you in tow of some tugboat? A. No, 
not at first. We waited some little time until the 
tug 



Q. What time was it when you put Mr. Fish on 
board? A. I do not know exactly. I suppose 
about — well, you could tell by ascertaining the 
termination of the race ; it was about six o'clock. 
Mr. Rives : I have the figures of the termi- 
nation of the race. The Valkyrie finished at 
5.29-30. 

Q. About six o'clock? A. As soon as we could 
put him on board. 

Q. Could there have been a re-measurement be- 
fore dark that night? A. I should think so. 

Q. How was that? A. Why not? 

Q. You gave the intimation — you put Mr. Fish 
on board the Cup Committee's boat at about six 
o'clock, and the re-measurement was to take place, 
if at all, in the Erie Basin, I suppose, as before? 
A. Yes/ 

Q. And you thought there was time for a re- 
measurement that night before dark? A. Oh, not 
before dark, no. 

Q. Would you have had a re-measurement made 



78 



that night? A. I see no reason why there should 
not be. 

Q. That was your idea? You were present at the 
re-measurement, were you not? 

Lord Dunr avert : On the Sunday ? 
Mr. Choate : On Sunday. 
A. Yes. 

Q. By notification, I suppose, from the Cup 
Committee? A. Yes. 

Q. The Valkyrie was also re-measured? A. Yes, 
sir. 

Q. And a slight variation found in the load water 
line of both? A. Yes. 

Q. An eighth of an inch in the Defender and 
a sixteenth of an inch in the Yalkyrie? A. I 
think so. 

Q. And there was also a re-measurement of your 
spars, was there not? A. No, I think there was 
not. I think it was suggested, but that Mr. Iselin 
refused to. I am not sure. 

Q. Where were you when the re-measurement on 
Sunday took place? A. I was on the Valkyrie 
while she was measured. 

Q. And when the Defender was measured? A. 
I was on the City of Bridgeport. 

Q. Was the City of Bridgeport lying right 
alongside in the Basin? A. Yes, in the BasiD. 

Q. Did you observe the Defender before she was 
measured? A. No; she was lying on the corner, 
I think. 

Q. You did not observe her, and did not form 
any opinion whether she lay immersed as she was 
on the 6th? A. No. 

Q. But the result showed she was? A. The re- 
sult showed she was. 

Q. And the ends of her load water line were 
marked distinctly on the outside of the vessel then, 
were they not, in your presence? A. Not abso- 
lutely in my presence, but they were marked. The 
forward end was marked on the stem ; the other 



79 



mark was put, I suppose, as far off as they could 
get conveniently. 

Q. Did you observe, then — when those marks 
were put on — the position of this pipe amidships 
which you have described, when you first observed it, 
as cut at the base by the water line? A. I did not 
see the marks put on ; I did not observe the 

Q. How near were you to her when she was 
measured? A. I did not observe her when she was 
measured at all. 

Q. Did you observe on that occasion at all that, 
as she lay and as she was marked, the water pipe 
that you have referred to was under water? A. 
No. 

Q. You have said that you saw her on the 31st 
day of August in the Erie Basin? A. That is, 
when she came in after the last trial race? 

Q. Yes. A. Yes. 

Q. Was it known to you as a fact that as she lay 
then she had sailed the trial races, or the last trial 
race? A. Yes. 

Q. You supposed that as she lay then on the 31st 
she was in just the condition in which she had sailed 
the trial race; at least, the last one? A. No; I 
think a week had elapsed since the last trial race 
was sailed. 

Q. I want to get your belief as to whether she 
was in the condition in which she had sailed the 

trial races? A. No; not more than 1 should 

say that the probability was that they sailed the 
last trial race in her best trim. 

Q. Did you understand whether on the trial 
races she carried any lead ballast or not? A. I 
have not the slightest idea. 

Q. You have no idea about that? A. No. 

Q. And you have no idea what was subsequently 
done to her except as you have stated your belief 
that after she was measured on the 6th, nine or ten 
tons of something was put in her and carried in her 



80 



during the race? A. I have no idea what was done 
to her in the interim. 

Q. Other than that? A. Other than that she was 
put down in some way — yes. 

Q. By the carrying in and introduction of nine 
or ten tons? A. After the measurement, but I have 
no idea what was done to her in the interval. 

Q. What motive did you attribute in loading her 
up with nine or ten tons more than she had when 
she was measured? A. The only motive, of course, 
would be to improve the vessel. 

Q. Improve her for what purpose? A. For the 
purpose of sailing. 

Q. Did you think that she was improved for the 
purpose of sailing by the carriage into her of nine 
or ten tons extra? A. How could I possibly tell? 

Q. Was that your belief? 

Lord Dunraven : That she would be im- 
proved by it? 

Mr. Choate: Yes. 
A. I could not possibly tell. 

Q. You thought so? A. I could not possibly 
give an opinion. 

Q. Did you have any opinion about it? A. As 
to whether she was improved or not — how can I 
possibly tell? 

Q. Whether her chances of winning the race were 
improved by the importation of nine or ten tons ? 
You mean that nine or ten — assuming that nine 
or ten tons were put in — would it be for the pur- 
pose of improving her? A. Of course it would. 

Q. Improve her in what direction? A. Improv- 
ing her sailing. 

Q. And as an experienced yachtsman is it your 
opinion that, if done, it did improve her sailing 
qualities for the race of the 7th? A. It is quite 
impossible for me to say whether her sailing qual- 
ities were improved from the time she sailed her 
last trial race to the time she sailed her first cu 



81 



race, because I knew nothing of her qualities or 
performance before. 

Q. Do you think it would be a just expectation 
that her sailing qualities would be improved by 
putting nine or ten tons extra on board of her? A. 
I do not quite understand what you want to get 
from me. 

Q. I want to get at the motive you attribute to 
whomever you think put nine or ten tons in her to 
sail her? A. I say she was put back to her proper 
trim. 

Q. You think she was put back to the trim in 
which she had been, when? A. For which she 
would sail best and which she proved she would 
sail best. I think what you want to know is, 
whether I think that putting a considerable quan- 
tity of ballast into the vessel would of necessity 
improve her. Of course not. 

Q. Do you think anybody else could think so? 
A. I should think so. 

Q. Then how do you attribute that as a motive to 
whoever put the nine or ten tons on board of her? 
A. If ballast was put into her, I should suppose it 
was put into her for the purpose of bringing her 
back to what was considered her proper trim. In 
other words, that she was not in her proper trim 
when she was measured. 

Q. Then you think there were three deceptions 
practiced : taking out ballast before she was 
measured on the 6th, putting it in again after she 
was measured on the 7th, and taking it out again 
before she was measured on the Sunday, do you? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Three separate acts to make out this plan? 
A. I should scarcely call them separate acts, be- 
cause of course they would all depend one upon the 
other. 

Q. Would you not think the taking out of nine 
or ten tons before she was measured on the 6th, 
putting in the same quantity after she was meas- 



82 



ured on the 7th, and taking it out again before she 
was measured on Sunday, were three separate acts ? 
A. I should call them three episodes. 

Q. Three episodes in the same scheme of fraud? 
A. If you choose to put it that way. 

Q. How long did you remain about the Erie 
Basin on the Sunday, the occasion of the remeas- 
uring? A. When did we leave the Basin? I do 
not know exactly. I should think about — I should 
think three or four o'clock in the afternoon. 

Q. I think I have gotten all you observed or 
thought you observed. I want to ask you some 
questions now about the reason for your conduct, 
knowing or believing what you did. You know 
the office of a protest upon a race — signalling a 
protest? You know what that is for, of course? 
A. Yes. 

Q. Why did you not signal a protest before the 
race began on the morning of the 7th, being per- 
fectly sure, as you were, that this fraud had been 
committed to the extent of immersing her four 
inches deeper than when she was measured on Fri- 
day? A. Signalling a protest, according to my 
idea of the matter, is showing that you intend to 
make a protest against some foul or something of 
that kind during the race. I do not think it would 
be applicable to cases like this. 

Q. And yet, as I understand the statement ren- 
dered by your counsel, a reason was given for not 
doing it, was there not ? Namely : That it would 
disappoint sixty thousand people that were col- 
lected there to see the race? 

Lord Dunraoen : That is, that I did not 
postpone or ask the race to be postponed? 
Mr. Choate : Yes. 
A. Yes ; that is another matter. 

Q. You did neither? You neither signalled a 
protest nor asked to postpone the race? A. No. 

Q. Nor communicated with the Cup Committee? 
A. Not before the race, no. 



83 



Q. What time was it — oh, you said it was half- 
past six — when you got your general impression, 
and it was nine when you became absolutely cer- 
tain, and it was shortly after you got back to the 
Valkyrie from your trip to the Defender with 
Mr. Henderson, that Mr. Fish came on board. 
That would make it about a quarter past nine? A. 
I do not know exactly. I should think about half- 
past nine, or so. 

Q. What time did the race begin that day? 

Mr. Hives : We have the figures here ex- 
actly. The Valkyrie started at 12:20:46. 
The Defender at 12.20 :50. 

Mr. Whitney : They were to be across the 
line at eleven o'clock. 

The Witness : I think eleven was the time 
fixed. 

Mr. Hives: Yes, and the starting point was 
shifted down to near Seabright. 

Q. It appears that there were three hours from 
the time the communication was made by you to 
Mr. Fish until the time the race began? A. No. 
Q. From about half -past nine to twelve twenty. 
Lord Dunraven : To the time the race was 
absolutely started? 
Mr. Choate: Yes. 
Lord Dunraven : I do not know exactly. 

Q. You had ample opportunity in those three 
hours, had you not, to break off the race? A. No. 

Q. You sailed that race that day, believing that 
somebody was trying to cheat you, did you not? 
A. I sailed that race that day believing that the 
Defender was immersed too deep in the water. 

Q. Yes, and believing that a fraud was being 
committed upon you? A. If you like to put it 
that way. 

Q. How can you account for your doing that? 

Lord Dunraven : Doing what? 

Mr. Choate : Starting upon a race that day, 



84 



believing that an attempt was being made to 

cheat you in the race. 

Lord Dunraven : You wish to ascertain why 

I did not 1 presume, at least, you want to 

ascertain why I did not refuse to start in the 

race? 

Mr. CJioate : Yes, having the conviction on 

your mind that a fraud had been perpetrated 

already. 
A. For the reasons which I think have been al- 
ready stated. I do not remember the exact moment 
that we left, or were towed out from the Horseshoe. 
We got out to the light-ship a short time before 
the race ought to have been started. We were im- 
mediately informed by signal that the starting point 
would be shifted, and we towed down to the place 
where we were shifted, and were very late about it, 
and the race was then immediately started. As a 
matter of fact, it would have been exceedingly diffi- 
cult to have communicated with the Cup Com- 
mittee. I should have had to have got out my own 
boat and gone on board and told them that I wouJd 
not start, for reasons which I have already men- 
tioned, which would have caused an immense deal 
of inconvenience to a great number of people, and 
nothing would have been gained by it. 

Q. Why could nothing have been gained by it? 
The fraud would have been exposed, would it not? 
A. Nothing could have been gained by it ; nothing 
could have been done by refusing to start until the 
vessels were remeasured. It was much less incon- 
venience to everybody to have the vessels remeas- 
ured afterwards. My own impression is that if I 
had asked such a thing, the Committee would have 
refused it, and I think they would have been per- 
fectly right. 

Q. You think the Committee would have refused ? 
A. I should think so. 

Q. What was the reason you did not ask, or 
complain to the Committee and endeavor to have 



85 



the race stopped? A. No, my reason was, my 
object would have been equally as well gained if 
the Committee had done as I requested after the 
race, with infinitely less inconvenience to everybody, 
than if I had requested a re-measurement before the 
race. 

Q. As the water was that day, did you think that 
the overloading, as we will call it, of the De- 
fender, improved her chance of winning the race? 
A. That would be a very difficult matter for me to 
say, whether she would have sailed better that 
race. 

Q. Did you have any idea on that point? A. I 
should think possibly she would have sailed better, 
on account of the sea. There was a good deal of 
sea, although very little wind. It had been blow- 
ing hard all night, or at least the greater part of 
the night, and the wind dropped away and there 
was practically very little wind. 

Q. When you came back that day from the race, 
you had told Mr. Fish, had you not, what you had 
complained of, and that it must be corrected? A. 
Yes. 

Q. Or you would discontinue the races? A. I do 
not recollect saying that. 

Q. Did you not mean to imply that, in stating 
that it must be corrected as a condition of continu- 
ing the races further? A. That I do not recollect, 
but I do not dispute it. It may be quite accurate. 

Q. You will not say that you did not? A. No. 

Q. Then we will assume that you did. When 
you came back to the Erie Basin, when you com- 
pleted that day, and found that the Cup Commit- 
tee had not complied with the request you say you 
made, to take charge of the Defender, why did 
you continue the races after that, if you thought 
that was your only chance of proving your charge ? 
A. I continued the races because, in one sense, the 
most important part of my request was granted. 

Q. You regarded there-measurement as the most 



86 



important part? A. I regarded the re -marking as 
a very important part. 

Q. There-measuring? A. Not the re-measuring. 

Q. You considered the putting a man in charge, 
or a representative in charge, to see that nothing 
was taken out of her, not so important? A. No, 
not at all. 

Q. Less important? A. Not at all. I considered 
that most important. 

Q. You considered that the most important part 
of the whole request you made? A. You must 
put my request into two. It was a double request, 
to a certain extent. As far as I asked that the ves- 
sels should be re-measured to prove or disprove my 
contentions that the Defender was sailing too 
deep, the taking charge of the vessel by some 
reliable person was all-important. The other part 
of my request, that the vessel should be marked 
externally so as to be plainly visible, was of equal 
importance perhaps in some respects, but more 
important as regards the future races. 

Q. I am not speaking about a future race. I am 
not talking of the way you looked at this matter 
when you found that the Cup Committee refused 
your request to enable you to prove this fraud by 
taking charge of her, by a proper representative. 
Why did you continue the races? A. My request, 
I must repeat, was a double one. I made the com- 
plaint that the vessel was sailing too deep. I sug- 
gested the means whereby the Committee should 
ascertain whether I was right or whether I was 
wrong. I also requested that steps should be 
taken which, in my opinion, would prevent such a 
thing occurring again. Those steps were taken. 

Q. Would you or not willingly and voluntarily 
continue racing with the owners of a rival boat, 
under the charge of a Cup Committee, if you be- 
lieved that a fraud was being committed which the 
Cup Committee refused to correct? A. I certainly 
would continue to sail the race and continue the 



87 



contest, as I did continue it, steps having been 
taken which, in my opinion, rendered it improba- 
ble, if not impossible, that the vessel's water line 
would be altered in the future. 

Q. You did not believe it could be after that? 
A. I do not think so, it was exceedingly unlikely 
after that. 

Q. I do not think you get my point. Were 
you willing to continue racing with another boat 
on which you believed a fraud had been committed, 
and where the Cup Committee had refused to give 
you an opportunity to prove the fraud? A. Cer- 
tainly. 

Q. That would not prevent your going on with 
the races? A. No. 

Q. What did you conclude from the failure of 
the Cup Committee to comply with your request to 
take charge of the Defender until she was re- 
measured? 

Lord Dunraven : What do you mean ? I do 
not quite understand that. 

Mr. Clioate : I mean, did you conclude that 

they refused to do it, and refused to give you 

an opportunity to prove the charge you had 

made? 

A. Of course they refused to do it, or neglected to 

do it. It was not done. 

Q. One or the other and you believed, knowing 
that was the only way to prove or disprove the 
charge, they neglected to do it? A. Yes. 

Q. Now we come to Sunday. You stood by 
when the re-measurement took place, and saw that 
the re- measurement was substantially the same as 
the original measurement on Friday? A. Oh, no; 
I know nothing about the re -measurement on 
Sunday, except the re -measurement of my own 
vessel. I was on board of her. 

Q. Do you mean to say that you did not wait 
until after the Defender had been measured? 



88 



A. I think we remained there until after the De- 
fender was measured. 

Q. And thinking that very important, you did 
not enquire what the result of the measurement 
was? A. I did not think it was a matter of very 
great importance. 

Q. Did you not enquire what the result was? A. 
I think Mr. Hyslop told me what it was. 

Q. Mr. Hyslop, the measurer, told you that there 
was a variation in the Defender of one-eighth 
of an inch, and in the Valkyrie of one-sixteenth? 
A. I think so, yes. 

Q. Both of which you regarded as of no impor- 
tance? A. Of very little importance. 

Q. On being informed of that, you made no 
further complaint, did you? A. No. 

Q. Did you intend to be regarded as waiving the 
complaint you had previously made to Mr. Fish? 
A. Certainly not. 

Q. Did you intend to be regarded as still standing 
upon that complaint, when the re-measurement 
having proved substantially the same as the original 
measurement, you went on with the races? 

Lord Dunraven : Do you mean, do I con- 
sider that the re-measurement disproved my — 
Mr. Choate : No ; did you intend to be under- 
stood as standing upon the complaint you had 
made to Mr. Fish when, after the re-measure- 
ment, you made no further allusion to the 
subject? 
A. If you mean by " standing upon it," I was of 
the same opinion, yes. 

Q. You had made a complaint. Did you under- 
stand that the Cup Committee might regard you as 
waiving it by your making no further allusion to 
the subject? A. No. 

Q. After the re-measurement? A. No. 

Q. You must have regarded this as a very serious 
charge, did you not? A. Serious of course; yes. 

Q. A charge of dishonesty ? A. You insist upon 



89 



calling it dishonesty and fraud constantly. It was 
a serions charge, no doubt. 

Q. And you believe that all on the Defender 
knew about the charge? A. I cannot possibly say 
that. 

Q. Have you not so said? A. You mean the 
gentlemen interested. Certainly. 

Q. All on the Defender? You have said that 
in your speech. A. I do not mean to say — I 
have said those words, I have no doubt — I do not 
mean to say that I insist upon it that every human 
being on her knew it. 

Q. (Reading): " The Committee were informed 
of my complaint and of my request immediately 
after the race. When I say the Committee were 
informed, I had no notice to that effect, but I put 
Mr. Latham Fish on board the Committee's boat 
for the purpose of making my complaint to them, 
and obviously they were informed and they acceded 
to a portion of my request, though, most unfortu- 
nately, not to all." 

Lord Dunraven : That is it. 

Q. (Continuing reading): " Obviously, also, 
Defender's people must have known all about 
the matter, and as I made the complaint and pre- 
ferred the request to the Committee through the 

representative of the Defender " 

Lord Dunraven : Yes. 

Q. You believed, did you not, on the evening of 
the 7th, that the Cup Committee and the people on 
the Defender knew of the fraud, or of your charge 
of fraud? A. Knew of the complaint. 

Q. Who did you mean by " all the people on the 
Defender " ? A. I should think anybody in charge 
of her. 

Q. You knew Mr. Iselin was on board of her, 
did you not? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And Mr. Duncan? A. No. 

Q. And Mr. Herreshoff? A. I did not know. 

Q. Who else besides Mr. Iselin did you know 



90 



was on board of her during the race that day? A. 
I do not know of anybody else. 

Q. You believed at the close of the affair on 
Sunday night that this fraud had been successfully 
committed, and the proof of it had been lost, did 
you not? A. The proof was lost, yes. 

Q. That is to say, that before she was measured 
on the 6th, nine or ten tons of weight had been 
taken out of her, then, after having been measured, 
it was secretly put back upon her, and then, after 
being re-measured, it was secretly taken out of her 
again? A. I think I have already said that I made 

no 1 have not attempted to define in any kind 

of way how deep she was in the water. 

Q. But those three things must have been done? 
A. She was deepened by weight, in some way, cer- 
tainly. She was deepened by weight being put in, 
and then that weight was taken out again. 

Q. You have given your reasons for not breaking 
up the race the first day, because it would be in- 
convenient. Why, believing that, did you consent 
to sail and start on the second day's race? A. 
Because the vessel had been marked. 

Q. You were willing to sail with a fraudulent 
party, with a fraudulent rival, under a Cup Com- 
mittee who refused you any opportunity to prove 
the fraud, because on Sunday the water line had 
been marked, is that so? A. Quite so, except- 
ing, of course, your definition of the transaction as 
" fraud " and " fraudulent " all the time. I rather 
demur to that. 

Q. Well, you have concurred in it once or twice. 
Have you ever continued a sport of any kind after 
such a discovery by you, except in this instance? 
A. It never occurred to me before to have found 
myself in that position. 

Q. That is, it has never occurred to you before 
to be engaged in a contest, and continue in it after 
you believed you had been defrauded? A. Quite so. 



91 

Q. Considering this matter as serious as you did, 
why did you not make formal complaint of some 
kind in writing to the Cup Committee? A. I had 
no opportunity of formulating my complaint in 
writing at the time. 

Q. There was no difficulty on Saturday, and be- 
tween Saturday night and your starting on this 
second race on Tuesday morning, was there? A. I 
could have made a formal complaint after the 
event, yes. 

Q. Why did you not do that at any time, either 
before or after? A. It was impossible before, and 
there was no object in it after. Besides, I think I 
stated I was perhaps not unnaturally reluctant to 
make a formal complaint in the matter. 

Q. But there was no doubt of the character of 
the transaction in your mind? A. None whatever. 

Q. And you preferred to waive it and continue 
the race in the hope of winning the cup? A. Not 
to waive it, by any means. I preferred to continue 
the contest because steps had been taken which, 
to my mind, made it more than improbable that I 
should have any complaints to make in the future. 

Q. Against these fraudulent parties, whoever 
they were? A. You must also bear in mind that, 
according to my opinion, the fact that the vessel 
was deeper in the water had no material effect 
upon the result of the first race. If the matter 
could have been proved, the only effect would have 
been to disqualify the vessel ; I presume, at least, 
to disqualify the Defender for a race which, in 
my opinion, she would have won anyhow, whether 
she was deeper in the water or not. 

Q. You do not happen to know that immersing 
her three or four inches more than she was when 
measured would have disqualified her from the 
race altogether, by carrying her load water line be- 
yond the ninety feet? A. I should fancy it would. 
That was a result I should have been very sorry to 



92 



obtain. It would have been a result I should have 
been very sorry to see produced. 

Q. Did you not sail the second day's race in the 
hope of winning the cup? A. Of course ; certainly. 
Q. And that induced you to waive the fraud you 
had discovered, and which they had refused to give 
you an opportunity to prove? A. No. I did not 
waive the fraud at all, in that sense. 

Q. You came back from your second day's race, 
and you started in to sail the third, did you not, 
with the same conviction on your mind that you 
had been cheated on the first day? A. With the 
same conviction in my mind that the vessel sailed 
the first race with an improper water line length, 
yes. 

Q. Do you know of any law of any sporting fra- 
ternity that justifies a man who believes that he 
has been cheated on the first adventure, or first 
part of the game, going on to complete the game? 
Lord Dunraven: Do I know of any law? 
Mr. Choate: Yes, or rule, recognized among 
sporting men, in any class? 
A. I see no earthly reason why a man should not 
continue a contest, even though he thinks the first 
part of it was not properly conducted. 

Q. I am not speaking of any mere propriety or 
impropriety, but gross fraud, such as you believed 
had been committed in this case? A. I don't quite 
understand the question. 

Mr. Choate: Well, I will not press that. I 
should like to have the drawings of the 
Defender we have here to show to the wit- 
ness. 

By Mr. Rives: 

I would like to ask Lord Dunraven a question or 
two while waiting. 

Q. Did you have any conversation with Mr. 
Iselin on the morning you went alongside the 
Defender? A. No. 

Q. Were you alongside the Defender for any 



93 



length of time? A. No; just long enough to put 
Mr. Henderson on board. 

Q. As I understood you, you came up under her 
stern from the starboard side, went along on the 
port side, and then rowed ahead of her and back 
again to your own boat? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Do you remember whether her mainsail was 
up at that time? A. No ; I don't think so. 

By Mr. Whitney : 

Q. Just before Mr. Choate dropped his questions, 
I understood you to say this, substantially : That 
the deeper immersion on that particular day, as 
the weather turned out to be — with a light wind 
after a heavy blow during the night and with some 
sea — did not benefit her in that race? A. I should 
think so, on account of the heavy swell. 

Q. You should think it did benefit her on that 
day? A. I should think it would. 

Mr. Whitney : I misunderstood you. 
Lord Dunraven ; No ; I think it did. 
Mr. Whitney: I understood you that the 
result of a protest would only have been to 
disqualify her ; that she would have won the 
race that day any way with less ballast. 

By Mr. Choate: 

Q. I understand you now to say, that the in- 
crease in her ballast, whatever it was, did aid her 
on that day on account of the heavy swell? A. I 
should think it would ; yes. 

Q. When did you first observe the heavy swell? 
A. As soon as we got into it. 

Q. When and where? A. Outside of the Hook. 

Q. Immediately? A. Yes. 

Q. And inside the Hook there was no swell at 
all? A. No. 

Q. No roughness of water? A. Oh, of course 
the water was not dead smooth like it is in a dock, 
but it was perfectly smooth in the ordinary sense 
of the term. 



94 



Q. Could you see whether the Defender, as she 
lay, or the Valkyrie, as she lay, was rolling or tip- 
ping at all? A. No; they were not. 

Q. You say that they were not? A. No. They 
lay there steady. The water was very smooth. 

Q. And there was no movement of the water, an 
inch or two inches or half an inch, upon her water 
line? A. Oh, yes, of course. 

Q. How much should you say? A. I don't 
know that. There is always a certain amount of 
ripple, of course. 

Q. How much of a ripple was there that day at 
the time when you, at nine o'clock, approached 
the Defender and put Mr. Henderson on board? 
A. I don't know. It is a very difficult thing to 
say. 

Q. Would the water wash up two or three or 
four inches upon the boat's side? A. I dare say 
it might. There might be a ripple of two or three 
inches in height above the natural level of the sea. 

Q. Might not that interfere with your ability, 
without measurements and by your mere eye, to 
determine exactly what her water line was? A. 
By exactly, if you mean to decimals of an inch, 
yes. 

Q. By (exactly) I mean the length of a line of 
eighty- eight feet and a half at least — an addition 
to that of twelve or fourteen inches more? A. 
Certainly not. 

Q. Do you think your eye is trained sufficiently 
to enable you to tell that, even though there was 
a ripple of three or four inches, if I may describe 
it so? A. Yes. 

Q. When you put Mr. Henderson on the port 
side of the Defender, did you see anybody on 
board the Defender? 

Lord Dunraven : Any people ? 
Mr. Choate: Yes. 
A. Oh, yes. 

Q. You saw a good many, did you not? A. No, 



95 



I don't know that there were a great many. I 
could not tell you how many. 

Q. Was there not a movement towards the port 
side to see you and Mr. Henderson? A. No. 

Q. Did you see any of the crew? A. Oh, yes; 
there must have been some of them. 

Q. Did you see Mr. Iselin? A. Yes. 

Q. How many of the crew do you think you 
saw? A. I haven't the least idea. 

Q. Did you notice if there were any or how 
many of the crew forward at the bow? A. No. 

Q. Whether there were ten or a dozen? A. No. 

Q. You know very well, do you not, that the 
weight of a dozen men at the bow would make 
quite an impression upon that bobstay iron? A. 
A dozen men standing in the bow of course would 
tip the vessel a little ; yes. 

Q. And would carry that down towards the 
water? A. Yes. 

Q. I think there was some misapprehension by 
you either of my question, or by me of your answer 
when you said how far that bobstay iron was above 
the water when you put Mr. Henderson on board? 
A. You have not asked me any question as to that. 

Q. I thought I did. I thought you said it was 
twelve or fourteen inches? A. That was in refer- 
ence to — you asked me a question as to what 
height I thought it was when she came to the 
measurements. 

Q. When she was measured, both on Friday and 
on Sunday? A. No; on the first day. 

Q. On Friday? How high was it, in your judg- 
ment, above the water when you put Mr. Hender- 
son on board? A. It would be merely estimating 
— I don't know ; I suppose about, perhaps, eight 
or nine or ten inches. 

Q. It ought not to be a mere estimate if you 
base your conclusion on four inches immersion, 
ought it? A. I did not base my conclusion of 
three or four inches immersion upon any one par- 



96 



ticular fact. I based it upon the general appear- 
ance and impression the vessel gave me. 

Q. You looked at the bobstay at that time, did 
you not? A. Yes. 

Q. If the whole water line was immersed three 
or four inches the bobstay would at least be 
lowered that amount, would it not? A. If it was 
bodily immersed three inches on a dead level? 

Mr. Choate : Yes. 
A. It would be if immersed and not set by the 
stern ; of course the bobstay would be lowered ; it 
might have been higher. 

Q. And yet you did not observe how far above 
the water the bobstay was? A. I told you I 
thought it was about nine or ten inches. 

Q. Did you look at it on both sides before you 
came around from her starboard quarter to her 
port side? A. Yes. 

Q. Did you then take pains to observe the bob- 
stay on the port side? A. I observed it on both 
sides. 

Q. And yet you cannot say how far it was from 
the water? A. Not nearer than I have already 
told you. 

Q. Now about that pipe. Did you not tell Mr. 
Fish that the pipe was in plain sight when the 
Defender was measured and that it had disap- 
peared at the time you spoke to him? A. Yes, I 
think so, or words to that effect. 

Q. Would you be surprised to learn that as she 
was re-measured on Sunday and found to be sub- 
stantially the same as on Friday, the whole of that 
water pipe was quite under water? A. Well, I 
should be rather surprised. 

Q. And it would rather disturb the grounds of 
your judgment, would it not? A. That would 
depend. If the trim of the vessel was identically 
the same, it would. 

Q. It would disturb the grounds of your judg- 
ment about the immersion of three or four inches? 



97 



A. To that extent — it being based upon the pipe, 
it would. 

Q. I will show you that quite specifically upon 
the drawing. Supposing this to be the water line, 
and this the red disk that was put on, on Sunday, the 
bottom of it marking the water line here; and then 
supposing that that was ascertained to be the out- 
let pipe to which you have referred, the top of 
it very decidedly under water, and that should 
prove to be correct, would it not shake your own 
confidence in your judgment, formed from eyesight 
on Friday and on Saturday? 

Lord Dunraven : Do you mean whether I 
should 

Q. If you found that this was the result by ac- 
tual measurement on Sunday, when the measure- 
ment substantially agreed with Friday's measure- 
ment, would it not shake your judgment in all that 
you have charged? A. That would be tantamount 
to saying that I did not see the pipe above the 
water when she was measured. 

Q. Would you still be as confident in your 
judgment formed on the Saturday as you have 
hitherto been? A. I would not disbelieve the evi- 
dence of my own eyes that I saw the pipe. 

Q. That is to say, that you saw the pipe on the 
Friday when she was measured? A. On the Fri- 
day when she was measured. 

The Chairman: What is that? (indicating). 
Mr. Choate : This is the red disk that was 
marked on Sunday to show her water line, the 
bottom of it being her actual water line. 

Q. That is to say, you preferred and do prefer 
the evidence of your own senses to any mathemat- 
ical measurement that can be made; is that so? A. 
That is a broad statement. 

Q. Well, in this case? A. It would take a great 
deal to convince me that I did not see a thing which 
I saw. 

Q. Would you insist upon your own eyesight 



98 



and the judgment formed from it, in preference 
to the actual facts ascertained by mathematical 
measurement? A. That is asking me whether a 
mathematical demonstration which you suppose be- 
fore me there, would convince me that I did not 
see the water pipe upon the water. I say it cer- 
tainly would not. 

Q. You do not claim, of course, to be infallible? 
A. Not at all. 

Q. If the water pipe was not above the water line 
you did not actually see it, did you? A. Certainly 
not. 

Q. Do you not understand the object of measure- 
ment to be to ascertain the exact water line? A. 
Yes. 

Q. And that if it is correctly and properly done 
it does so ascertain it? A. Yes. 

Q. Have you ever made any complaint of the 
measurement on Sunday? A. JN"o. 

Q. And so far as you know and believe it was 
exactly correct? 

Lord Dunraven : The second measurement? 
Mr. Choate : Yes. 
A. Oh, I fancy so. 

Q. Yet if this chart is the correct result of that 
measurement, it disproves, does it not, your state- 
ment that at the time of measurement the bottom 
of that pipe was cut by the water line? A. That 
diagram shows the water pipe below the water. My 
senses show me the water pipe above the water. 

Q. It is your senses against the actual measure- 
ment? A. Certainly; against that diagram. 

Q. Well, we will undertake to prove the diagram. 
When was it you saw and examined, and placed in 
your mind or eye, that pipe with the base of it cut 
by the water line? Was that while she was being 
measured, or when you first came into the Basin on 
Friday, or when? A. Before she was measured. I 
think we were measured first, if I recollect. We 



99 



were lying close to each other for a considerable 
time. 

Q. Did you see some lead put on her that Fri- 
day? A. No. 

Q. Do you know that some was put on her that 
Friday? A. I believe so. 

Q. You saw it? A. No. 

Q. Some was put on the Yalkyrie? A. Yes. 

Q. How much? A. I do not know exactly. 

Q. A ton? A. Yes. More than that. I have no 
doubt I can find out for you. 

Q. What was the object of that? A. We had — 
I think we put in altogether about iiYe tons. 

Q. And all after your arrival here? Is not that 
so? A. Yes. 

Mr. Aslcwith : Will you ask what was the 
object? 

Q. What was the object of it? A. I wish I could 
explain a little. You see, we had no opportunity 
of ascertaining the Valkyrie's best trim, or any- 
thing of that kind. We only had a chance of sail- 
ing her three times in the Clyde before we left, and 
practically we were obliged to make a]l our ex- 
periments after we got here. We came to the con- 
clusion in Scotland that she' required more ballast. 
We put in, if I remember right, two tons there, 
and I think we added three tons here before the 
vessel was measured, and then, if I recollect right, 
we left a ton ashore, and asked for re-measurement 
on the day of the third race. 

Q. I want, if I can, to be certain that you did or 
did not see some lead put on the Defender on 
Friday morning? A. I did not. 

Q. Did you hear that some had been put on? A. 
Oh, yes. 

Q. From whom did you hear that? A. I think 
Mr. Watson told me. 

Q. He was your representative there, was he 
not? A. Yes. 



100 



Q. Did he tell you how much had been put on? 
A. No, I do not think he mentioned it. 

Q. Did he tell you when it had been put on? A. 
I think he told me that it was lying on the cabin 
floor. 

Q. When he came back from the measurement? 
A. Yes. There was a certain amount of lead on the 
cabin floor that was placed above the position that 
it was to occupy. 

Q. That is right. Now, do you remember how 
long it was before he so reported to you that you 
had observed this pipe, or think you had observed 
this pipe, out of water? A. I should think a few 
minutes ; a quarter of an hour. I cannot say exactly. 

Q. Was the crew on board the Defender when 
you saw the pipe exposed? A. Yes, I think 
so. 

Q. Was the Defender without any list, or could 
you tell whether she was without any list or 
not? A. No, she had no list that I could see. 

By Mr. Rives : 

Q. Did I understand you to say she was along- 
side the wharf at that time? A. I do not know 
whether she was touching the wharf. She was close 
to the side of the dock. 

Q. Was she made fast to it? A. I think so; 
yes. 

By Mr. Whitney : 

Q. Which side had she to the wharf? A. She 
had the starboard side toward the wharf. 

By Mr. Choate: 

Q. You have said that Mr. Watson informed you 
that this lead, whatever he saw on the cabin floor, 
was above the place where it was to be put. Did 
you not understand that in order to be packed or 
put into its final place it had to be cut? A. No. 



101 



Q. You did not know that? A. No. 

Mr. Choate : I think that is all I wish to ask 
Lord Dunraven. I have not asked him any 
questions, as the Committee will observe, in 
reference to the reflection, if I may so call it, 
made upon the Cup Committee. I do not sup- 
pose that is any affair of Mr. Iselin's. In 
fact, a part of Mr. Iselin's case is that he did 
not hear of this charge of fraud until long 
after the race. He heard of the request for are- 
measurement. He heard nothing of any request 
that the Committee should take charge of the 
boat. At any rate, from whatever cause, I 
consider that his defense should be conducted 
independently, and I would not have the Com- 
mittee infer that the Cup Committee have no 
questions to ask the witness. Whether they 
are prepared to ask him now I do not know. 

The Chairman : We have notified the Cup 
Committee that they would be at liberty to 
appear here if anything that has been said to- 
day leads them to desire it. I do not know 
whether they will do so or not. 

Mr. Choate : They can hardly have had an 
opportunity to hear what was said. You will 
observe that this statement upon which I have 
cross-examined Lord Dunraven consists only 
of two or three brief pages, while the state- 
ment of counsel that was adopted, and which 
bore very full relation to the Cup Committee, 
they had not seen or heard, as I suppose. Is 
that in writing? 

Mr. Aslcwith : No, sir. 

The Chairman : Mr. Canfield, the secre- 
tary, has been present this morning, so that 
the Cup Committee are apprised of what has 
been said, I suppose, and of what has hap- 
pened. Do you desire to ask any further 
questions? 



102 

Mr. AsTcwith : I should like to ask a few 
questions. I do not know whether the Com- 
mittee themselves desire to ask any questions 
before I do. 

By Mr. Whitney : 

Q. I understand that there was loose ballast on 
both boats when they were measured on Friday? 
A. That is so. 

The Chairman : That is all from the Com- 
mittee. 

By Mr. AsTcioith : 

Q. When the Defender was tied to the wharf, 
that was during the period of re-measurement? 
A. Yes. 

Q. I refer to what you were last alluding to? A. 
I think they were talking about the time of the first 
measurement. 

Q. But it was during measurement? A. Yes. 
Q. And then she would be upon a flat trim? A. 
Yes. 

Q. With her crew in their places and everything 
arranged. That was not the only time that you 
observed the pipe? A. No. I observed the pipe 
first myself and then Mr. Watson called my atten- 
tion to it afterward. 

Commodore Smith : I wish to state on be- 
half of the Cup Committee, of which I was 
chairman, that I arrived here this afternoon, 
about a quarter past two. I had never heard 
allegations or charges made against the Cup 
Committee, which I understand have been made 
this morning. Therefore I know nothing of 
what they are. If I could see them I could 
assure the gentlemen all assembled that the 
Cup Committee will be well prepared to defend 
itself when they know what the charges are. 
Inasmuch as I do not yet now what they are 



103 



I am not prepared to do so. I should like to 
have the opportunity, after I see what these 
charges are, to consult with my Committee, 
and to make a defense if any defense is re- 
quired. 

The Chairman : You will have an oppor- 
tunity to be heard after such preparation as 
you desire to make. 

Commodore Smith: I want to say that, if 
there are any questions to be asked, I am not pre- 
pared to ask them now, because I do not know 
what the charges are. I never heard of them 
until two o'clock, as I was not here this morn- 
ing. I certainly shall bring the matter before 
my Committee, if we can have a copy of the 
record, and I shall be prepared to investigate 
any charges that may have been made against 
the Committee. 

Mr. Whitney ; I do not understand that 
there is any new matter, so far as the Cup 
Committee is concerned, excepting the intima- 
tion that there was an arrangement entered 
into against publication. 

Mr. Choate : That is pretty important, in 
connection with the way in which it has been 
put by counsel in opening, in which the 
great burden of his complaint seems to be 
rather against the Committee. 

Mr. Askwith : Lord Dunraven takes his 
stand upon the pamphlet and what has been 
actually written — and also upon the statement 
of the Cup Committee, dated December 14, 
which I saw for the first time at five o'clock 
yesterday afternoon. 

Mr. Choate : Does it not depend somewhat 
on what this Committee considers are the 
charges mentioned in the resolution which it 
is appointed to investigate? I confess that 
the charges against the Defender and her 
owners were the only charges that I supposed 



104 



were going to be investigated, but that is 
perhaps because of my nearness to the De- 
fender. It is quite obvious that Lord Dun- 
raven and his counsel consider there are very- 
serious charges against the Cup Committee. 

Mr. Aslcwith : Of course it is for this Com- 
mission to gather what the meaning of the 
pamphlet is. The pamphlet as a whole, I say 
is, as it were, far more of a criticism of the 
action of the Cup Committee than of any 
action that has ever been made by any one con- 
nected with the Defender. 

Mr. Choate : And the language "incompe- 
tence of the Cup Committee," was expressly 
used in the statement of counsel, which Lord 
Dunraven has adopted. The particular addi- 
tional matter that I remember is in regard to 
his statement of an arrangement between Mr. 
Smith, representing the Cup Committee, and 
Lord Dunraven, that no further action 

Mr. Rives : No, between Mr. Kersey. 

Mr. Choate : Mr. Kersey, yes, representing 
Lord Dunraven, after he had left; that no 
publication should be made on either side ; 
and he justifies his subsequent publication be- 
cause of the violation of that arrangement by 
the publication here. 

The Chairman : It seems to me that this 
Committee is only concerned with the question 
whether the water line of the Defender was 
altered, as has been stated, and that what has 
been said in regard to this agreement not to 
publish is no concern of ours, except so far as 
incidentally it may bear upon that question. 
In other words, that we are not here to investi- 
gate any charges that may be brought against 
the Cup Committee as such. That is not within 
the scope of our authority or duty, but it may 
possibly be — I do not undertake to say that — 
it may possibly be that some such agreement, 



105 



if it was found to exist, might be incidentally 
useful as evidence on the real enquiry. 

Mr. Choate : I shall content myself with 
showing that Mr. Iselin never heard of any 
such arrangement. 

Commodore Smith : May I ask, if that is 
going to be admitted as evidence in this case 
against the Cup Committee — that I, on behalf 
of the Cup Committee, agreed that this should 
not be published any further 

The Chairman : We certainly should not 
exclude the Cup Committee from being heard 
upon that point. If we receive the evidence 
at all, we must hear the other side as well. 

Commodore Smith : Then I desire to say to 
this Committee immediately, in order that it 
may be refuted on the spot, that I never had 
any conversation at all with Mr. Kersey on 
this subject, and never made such an agree- 
ment, and never have set eyes on Mr. Kersey 
since Lord Dunraven left here in the Val- 
halla. That I desire to go on the record 
now. 

Mr. AsTcwith : I do not know that you were 
in the room when I read Mr. Kersey's letter. 

Commodore Smith : It has been intimated to 
me that this is the evidence. If it is the evi- 
dence, I speak to deny it and refute it utterly 
and emphatically. 

Mr. AsJcwith : If you have not heard the 
fact, it is difficult to deny a matter that you do 
not, perhaps, understand. This reference Mr. 
Kersey makes is not with reference to any 
meeting with you after Lord Dunraven went 
away, but before he went. To commence with, 
you are wrong in the dates, and therefore I 
think it would be as well if you heard the ex- 
tent to which Mr. Kersey went. 

Commodore Smith ; I can answer that ques- 
tion by saying that I never had any conversa- 



106 



tion with Mr. Kersey on this subject at all at 
any time. 

Mr. Whitney : So far as this matter is con- 
cerned, do you propose to put in anything else 
other than this letter? 

Mr. Aslcwith : It seems to me that the 
arrangement really is, with regard to the 
enquiry before the Commission, a compara- 
tively immaterial matter. It is a small por- 
tion of the reasons, perhaps, that induced 
Lord Dunraven neither to publish at the 
moment, nor to publish a statement in Great 
Britain. But as a matter of fact, for three 
weeks he was in a yacht crossing the Atlantic, 
and it would have been impossible for him to 
have made any statement publicly. The state- 
ment that he did make occurred after the 
report of the Committee to the New York 
Yacht Club had been made, and that report 
almost coincided, I think, with the date of his 
arrival in England. 

The Chairman : It is only so far as it may 
be claimed to be evidence for what it is worth 
on the question that is before us that we care 
to go into it. At the same time, if the Cup 
Committee desires to be heard to-morrow or at 
some proper time, we shall not undertake to 
exclude them. 

Commodore Smith : I only make my state- 
ment in view of the fact of what I have heard. 
I state that I never had any conversation with 
Mr. Kersey upon this subject at all. If it is 
coming up, of course we may like to be heard. 
I will communicate with my Committee. I 
will say that I have a very competent Commit- 
tee, and I should not have had the authority 
to make any such statement on behalf of my 
Committee, and I should not have made any 
such agreement without consulting them. 

The Chairman : Probably you had better 



107 



consult with your Committee, and then to- 
morrow we will hear you. 

Commodore Smith ; I say that I did not do 
so, and I say further, that I should not, with- 
out consulting them. I will call my Commit- 
tee together this evening, and if they desire to 
say anything about this matter, if it is going 
to stand as a part of the evidence, of course 
we shall refute it, because it is not true. 

Mr. Whitney : I do not see how it is very 
important. They both published afterwards. 

Mr. AsJcwith : It is of importance in this 
way, I think. Whether it occurred in an 
agreement or arrangement or conversation, or 
in whatever manner it did occur, Mr. Kersey 
got that idea into his mind, that impression 
upon his mind, that nothing was going to be 
done, and certainly, the impression upon Lord 
Dunraven's mind, as is shown, I think, by the 
telegram to the Royal Yacht Squadron and 
also by the instructions that he gave to Mr. 
Grant, of the Royal Yacht Squadron, the 
impression upon his mind was that nothing 
was going to be done. He was therefore 
astonished at receiving the news that the re- 
port had been made by the Committee to the 
New York Yacht Club. And in the letter 
that caused the appointment of this Commit- 
tee, I think you will find that Mr. Iselin rather 
speaks as if these statements that had been 
made were new statements. Lord Dunraven's 
constant contention is that they were state- 
ments that he had made before, and that he 
was only reiterating statements that he had 
previously made. 

Mr. Choate : You will agree with me that 
this whole matter is outside of Mr. Iselin' s de- 
fense, and I take no notice of it. 

Mr. Rives : The only materiality of it at all, 
I think, and the only materiality of any part 



108 



of this evidence, is what Lord Dunraven under- 
stood in regard to the matter. If Mr. Kersey 
was mistaken in supposing he had an under- 
standing with Mr. Smith, that is a matter of no 
consequence, I take it, except that he told 
Lord Dunraven that he had an understanding 
on that point. 

Mr. AsTcwith : It is important in regard to 
Mr. Iselin's letter, in which he says: "He 
went home, and after a silence of more than 
two months, he makes this odious charge in 
a communication addressed not to me nor to 
the owners of the Defender, nor to the New 
York Yacht Club or Royal Yacht Squadron, 
whom he, I suppose, represented in the races 
for the America's cup, but to a public news- 
paper on the other side of the Atlantic." Ex- 
cept as a personal matter between Mr. Smith 
and Mr. Kersey, the type of arrangement does 
not seem to me to have any materiality in the 
case. It seems that Mr. Kersev somehow 
got the impression upon his mind, and at any 
rate he conveyed a strong impression to Lord 
Dunraven, that nothing was going to be done. 

Lord Dunraven : That was the understand- 
ing which I believed had been arrived at, and 
that was the reason why this particular matter 
of the load water line was not mentioned by 
me before, or rather was not reiterated. 

Mr. 'Whitney : You did, however, make 
that report to the Royal Yacht Squadron, con- 
taining all this matter? 

Lord Dunraven : The letter I wrote to Mr. 
Grant, yes. 

Mr. Whitney : You made it before you left 
this country. 

Lord Dunraven : Before I left this country, 
and acting on those instructions or on that 
understanding, I cabled Mr. Grant, or rather 
instructed Mr. Kersey to cable Mr. Grant, if he 



109 



published anything, not to publish any portion 
dealing with the load water line question. 

The Chairman : It does not seem to me to 
be worth the time we are taking up with it. It 
may be, in a remote sense, evidence on the 
question we are concerned with. 

Mr. Whitney : All the letter of Mr. Kersey 
says is that he saw Mr. Smith, and Mr. Smith 
said he thought he should not make any 
further report on the subject. Lord Dunraven 
did report it to the Royal Yacht Squadron, 
and the Committee reported it to the New 
York Yacht Club. 

Mr. AsTcwith : That is so. 

Lord Dunraven : I do not put it exactly in 
that way. I wrote to the secretary of the 
Squadron. I did not make what I term a 
formal report to the Club. 

Mr. Whitney : You certainly did not take 
the step that you would have taken if you 
never expected it to be published, and if you 
were acting under an arrangement that nothing 
should be said of it, you would not have put 
it into that report to the secretary of the Royal 
Yacht Club. 

Lord Dunraven : Oh, no, of course, not if I 
had known of it, but I think I wrote to Mr. 
Kersey on the subject the day I sailed. 

Mr. AsTcwith: Yes, the letter to the Squadron 
was on September 24, and this letter to Mr. 
Kersey was on September 28, the day you 
sailed ? 

Lord Dunraven : Yes. 

By Mr. AsTcwith : 

Q. Had there been a wind blowing strongly 
the evening before the day of the 7th of Sep- 
tember? 



110 



Lord Dunraven: That is the day of the 
first race ? 

Mr. AsJcwith ; Yes. 

Q. Was there the appearance of heavy weather 
the next day? A. Yes; we expected a hard wind 
the next day. 

Q. Was that the kind of weather in which, in 
your opinion, it would be of advantage for the 
Defender to be immersed more deeply? A. 
Y r es. 

Q. With regard to these questions that have 
been asked you as to your sailing again after your 
having felt that the Defender had sailed upon 
a longer water load line, did you, in the exercise of 
your judgment, consider that a proper thing for 
you to do? A. Yes. 

Q. You thought that half of your request had 
been complied with? A. Yes. 

Q. And that steps had been properly taken to 
prevent any fraud, if there was fraud, in the 
future? A. Yes. 

Q. You considered that the half of your request, 
the marking upon the Sunday, was a very impor- 
tant matter? A. Yes. 

Q. And that there would have been no advantage 
in making a complaint, either upon the Sunday or 
before the next race, when the opportunity for in- 
vestigating the complaint that you had already 
made had jjassed away? A. Quite so. There 
would have been nothing to be gained by it. 

Q. You have read this statement of the America's 
Cup Committee of December 14? A. Yes, I read 
it yesterday. 

Q. You have read the part upon page 35, be- 
ginning "The charge involved' down to "pre- 
posterous"? A. Yes. 

Q. You have been asked a great deal as to 
whether yoa ought not to have made some com- 
plaint before the race began? A. Yes. 

Q. Does that statement of the Committee now 



Ill 

throw any light upon your argument upon that 
point? A. Their statement that the charge was 
absurd and preposterous, you mean? 

Q. Yes? A. I should think so, for there would 
not be much object in making the complaint. 

Q. The Committee suggest that any such charge 
was preposterous, and therefore you would have 
been put in a very peculiar position if you had 
made it prior to the race? A. Yes, they would 
have entertained the same opinion then. 

Q. Do you generally endorse the views that you 
have stated in your speech at Cardiff, with regard 
to the reason that induced you to continue sailing 
in the subsequent matches between the Defender 
and the Valkyrie? A. Yes. 

Q. Do you agree with the statement that it was 
physically impossible for a re-measurement to have 
taken place in the evening of September 6th? A. 
No, certainly not. I see no reason why it should 
not have been done. 

Q. With regard to seeing the Defender upon 
the 31st of August, I think you said that a week 
had elapsed since the trial races? A. I think so, 
or about a week. 

Q. You had really no means whatsoever of 
judging as to whether, at the time that she came 
into the Erie Basin, she had the same length of 
load water line as she had when she sailed the trial 
races? A. None whatsoever. 

Q. In judging of the appearance of the yacht 
upon the water and whether she was drawing 
more water or less water, what is your view upon 
that matter? Should you say that a man 
of experience in yachting would speedily detect 
a very small alteration in her trim or immersion? 
A. Yes ; I think a man of experience would, with 
an eye trained to it, as it were, detect a very small 
alteration in trim or in immersion. An alteration 
would be quite apparent to him that would be so 
small that it would not be apparent to anybody 



112 



who was not, as it were, an expert or accustomed 
to it. 

Q. To the experienced eye it is a matter of 
great importance, in such a case? A. Certainly. 

Q. Can you illustrate it in any way? A. I 
think the trained eye becomes capable of forming 
a judgment on data which would be insufficient 
for the untrained eye, just the same way as the 
trained eye of an artist enables him to detect the 
shades and variations of colors that would not be 
apparent to an ordinary man. It is a matter of 
habit. I think any man would admit that a man 
accustomed to yachting would detect in his own 
or another vessel a very slight alteration of trim. 

Q. Did you judge by the general appearance of 
that vessel, formulating that, to a certain extent, 
in your mind, by the various indicia that you set 
forth in your pamphlet? A. Yes. 

Q. With regard to this having been put forward 
as such an unheard-of and heinous charge, unless 
there was absolute proof of the fact in making the 
charge, have you anything to say as to your views 
on that point? A. I think, in a sense, the matter 
has been exaggerated. It is rather put forward 
as if the fact that a vessel did not sail on her 
proper measured water line length was such an un- 
heard-of thing that a man ought rather to disbelieve 
his own senses than to believe in that. I rather 
demur to that. My impression is that it is not a 
matter unheard of in yacht racing ; at any rate, in 
England. Of course I cannot say about America. 
I think any man carefully judging by the evidence 
of his own senses is perfectly justified in making 
such a complaint ; in making such a charge, and that 
it is not intrinsically improbable that it would be 
correct. 

Q. When you examined the Defender at Sandy 
Hook, was there calm weather there? A. Yes; 
quite calm. 

Q. Was it rougher when you got outside? A. 



113 



There was a good deal of swell outside, but there 
was no wind. 

Q. In your view as a yachtsman, what would be 
the effect of any slight ripple that was upon the 
water, in either exaggerating or lessening the ap- 
pearance of the boat, whether of deeper immersion 
or not? A. I do not think that the fact that th^re 
was a little ripple in the water would leave any im- 
pression one way or the other, of greater or less 
length. Of course, as regards any distinctive 
marks, like this pipe that has been alluded to, 
the fact that there was a little ripple would, if 
anything, tend to show the pipe, even if it had 
been slightly sunk. Water would depress, as much 
as it rose above it, of course. If it was hidden one 
moment, it would be exposed the next. 

Q. I do not know whether any suggestions were 
purported to be made by the questions with regard 
to the lead upon the Yalkyrie, but, as I un- 
derstand it, the Yalkyrie was not in trim at the 
time of your arrival in America? 

Lord Dunr avert : We had not got in trim ? 

Mr. Askwith: Yes. 
A. No. We put in more lead here than we had 
used before. We had no opportunity of experi- 
menting on it. 

Q. The l^ad was taken straight below? A. The 
lead was lying on the cabin floor, I think ; but I do 
not know how much exactly. I think I can find 
out if there is any object in doing so. 

Q. You are aware that according to the rules 
of the Yacht Racing Association of England, 
no ballast should be unshipped or shifted after 
nine p.m. of the day previous to the race? A. Yes. 

Mr. Hives : That is the same rule here, pre- 
cisely. 

Mr. Aslcwith : I think there is a slight dif- 
ference. 

Mr. Rives : Rule 7, Sec. 1, says: " Neither 
ballast nor water shall be taken in or dis- 



114 



charged after nine p.m. of the day before the 
race." 

Mr '. AsJcwith ; The word " shifting " oc- 
curs. 

Mr. Hives : That is probably in another 
place. You will find that in the first rule. 
"If any yacht, by alteration of trim or im- 
mersion by dead weight, should increase her 
load water length, or in any way increase her 
spar measurement, as officially taken, she must 
obtain re-measurement. ' ' 

Mr. AsJcwith : The difference would rather 
appear to be that the rule in England applies 
to shifting of any kind whatsoever, whether it 
increases her length or not, and that increase 
of length rather qualifies. I do not know that 
there is much difference. 

Q. But if the rule is the same in the New York 
Yacht Club did you understand that the lead, at 
any rate upon the Defender, was being cut up 
during the night? A. I cannot say anything about 
that. I do not know anything about it except 
what I have seen in the newspapers. 

Q. There was one small point I might ask you 
about. The City of Bridgeport was never close 
to the Valkyrie, was it, in the same way as the 
Hattie Palmer was to the Defender — the Valkyrie 
had boats, dingies, and so on? A. No; the 
City of Bridgeport was never alongside of her. 

Mr. AsJcwith : One of the questions rather 
led to the supposition that the City of Bridge- 
port was close to the Valkyrie. I think those 
are all the questions I wish to ask. 

By Mr. CJwate : 

Q. I omitted to ask you a question. You cor- 
rected, or your counsel kindly did, an extract from 
your speech at Cardiff, by substituting the name of 
Mr. Hyslop for Mr. Iselin, in this sentence 



115 



Mr. AsTcwith : What is that from? 
Mr. Clioate : From its appearance, I should 
think it was from the New York Herald. 

Mr. AsJcwith : A sort of abridgment from 
the speech? 

Mr. Clioate : An extract. This is the sen- 
tence : i ' I myself, in the presence of three or 
four gentlemen, had a long conversation on the 
subject" — meaning the subject of your com- 
plaint — "with Mr. Hyslop, and there was no 
attempt at concealment. ' ' 
Q. Is that, as you remember it, what you said at 
Cardiff on that point? A. I believe I amended the 
statement that I talked about the subject with Mr. 
Iselin. 

Q. About the three or four other gentlemen, do 
you remember who they were? A. I think Mr. 
Watson, Mr. Glennie and Mr. Ratsey. 

Q. But nobody representing either the Cup Com- 
mittee or the Defender? A. No; that was on 
board the City of Bridgeport — an ordinary con- 
versation. 

Q. You feel quite confident that your skill as an 
expert would enable you to determine to your 
satisfaction, but without measurement, by the eye 
alone, whether the water line of the Defender, as she 
lay, was 88^ feet or 89^ feet? A. I think so ; yes. 
Q. How about the difference between 88-J feet and 
91 feet and more? A. You are eliminating the thing 

down to a point, and you must come to a point 

Q. I am not bringing it down ; I am extending 
it, between 88^ feet and 91 feet. 

Lord Dunraven : Whether the eye would 
detect the difference between 88-| feet and 91 
feet? 

Mr. Choate : Ninety-one feet and upwards. 
Lord Dunraven : Seven inches ? 
Mr. Choate : No, 32 inches. 
Lord Dunraven : Whether the eye would 
detect a difference in length of 32 inches? 



116 



Mr. Choate : Yes. 
A. I should think so ; certainly. 

Q. Suppose it should be proven here to your 
satisfaccion that an immersion of four inches would 
lengthen the water line of the Defender 32 
inches, would not that somewhat qualify your 
original judgment based on your observation that 
it was lengthened about one foot? A. No; because 
I founded my supposition that it was lengthened 
one foot on the belief that three or four inches 
would lengthen her about that much. 

Q. If it should be proven to your satisfaction, 
by evidence that you could not gainsay, that an 
immersion of four inches would lengthen her water 
line 32 inches, would you not distrust the judgment 
you got from your naked eye that she was by an 
immersion of three or four inches lengthened only 
one foot on the water line? A. JN"o, not in the 
least. 

Q. You would still stand by your eyesight? A. 
Yes; I should judge by the perpendicular height. 

Q. Then did you really judge by the immersion, 
or did you really measure in your eye the water 
line? A. Oh, no, the height, perpendicularly. 

Q. You did not notice the water line at all — the 
length, I mean? A. In saying that I believe the 
vessel sailed a foot longer, I based that statement 
of a foot longeron the supposition, which might be 
quite erroneous, that three inches — putting her 
down three inches in the water — would lengthen her 
a foot. If I am wrong in that and it would lengthen 
her two feet, it does not in any way invalidate my 
opinion that she was three or four inches deeper in 
the water. 

Q. And if being immersed three or four inches in 
the water would lengthen her thirty-two inches, 
then you would believe that it lengthened her that 
much? A. Certainly. 

Q. You said the appearance the night before was 



117 



high wind and heavy weather the next day? A. 
Yes. 

Q. Did you discuss the subject that night of 
what the weather was likely to be? A. Yes. If I 
remember right a lot of schooners came into the 
Hook. The wind was blowing very hard and one 
thing or another. 

Q. Did you discuss whether putting more bal- 
last on either boat would help her in any such 
weather? A. No; not that I am aware of. 

Q. The next morning, did the weather meet your 
expectations of the night before? A. No; there 
was no wind at all, scarcely. Very little. 

Q. Only heavy weather, you said, or a heavy 
swell? A. There was plenty of swell, yes; but 
very little wind. 

Q. The Defender beat the Valkyrie that day 
about twelve minutes ? 

Mr. fiives : Eight. 

A. I forget now what it was. 

Q. How much of that time do you attribute to 
this overloading? A. That is an impossible ques- 
tion to answer. 

Q. Any appreciable amount? A. No; I should 
not think a very great deal. 

By Mr. Whitney : 

Q. Will you explain how you think it could 
have worked to her advantage? A. I think she 
would have carried her way better through the 
swell. Her momentum would be greater. But that 
would depend so much on the shape of the vessel. 

Q. I understand you that the motive that they 
would have had for increasing her immersion would 
be readily explained by knowing that the wind was 
very heavy that night? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And it looked as though it was going to be a 
heavy day? A. Yes. 

Q. But that was not so? It turned out a very 
light wind and quite a swell? A. That is correct. 



118 



Q. I do not understand, and I would like you 
to explain a little more clearly, if you will, how 
with the same sail, a deeper immersion on that day 
would have benefited her? A. I should think 
it would have benefited her, but, as I say, that 
would depend very much upon the vessel and upon 
details that I do not know anything about. My 
impression is that the vessel would hold her way 
through that swell better by being rather heavy 
than by being rather light. If it was rather light 
I should think the swell would stop her more. 

Q. Was there not a good deal of swell inside the 
Hook on that morning? A. No; it was quite 
smooth. 

Q. Was there not a long swell there? A. No. 
Mr. Aslcwith : You did not ask any ques- 
tions of Lord Dunraven, when you asked him 
if he had seen the note you were enquiring 
about, with regard to the time of that conver- 
sation. I point out the words that Mr. Fish 
used: " Lord Dunraven believes * * * 
that Defender sailed to-day's race" — which 
looks rather as if Mr. Fish had made the note 
there towards the end of the race, or later in 
the day. 

Mr. Choate : We are pretty sure that the 
note was made near the conclusion of the race, 
and that there were two interviews, one in the 
morning, and another when the request was 
made to put it in writing. I take it for 
granted there was nothing in your handwriting 
on that. 

Lord Dunraven : No. 

By Mr. Choate : 

Q. Have you examined this critically? A. No. 

Q. Will you look at the words " his own and," 
which appear to be in a different handwriting from 
the rest of it, and say whether those are not in 
your handwriting? A. Quite sure they are not in 
my writing. 



119 



Q. Nor anything else upon it? A. Nothing else 
upon it. 

Mr. AsTcwith : I propose now to put in affi- 
davits, sworn in England, from various mem- 
bers of the crew of the Valkyrie, commencing 
with Mr. George Lennox Watson, the designer 
of it, and also to examine Mr. Arthur Glen- 
nie, the Commodore of the Royal Ports- 
mouth Corinthian Yacht Club, upon the same 
points. 

Mr. Choate : I do not know how far the 
Committee will receive mere affidavits. Of 
course it gives very little opportunity for us to 
put them to the test. If they come at all, 
they will have to come for what they are 
worth. Perhaps the Committee has not con- 
sidered that question yet. 

The Chairman : I think we should receive 
them, subject to the consideration, of course, 
that you have just mentioned. 

Mr. Askwith : Of course we were unable to 
bring over a dozen witnesses from England. 
These affidavits have been sworn in England 
and vised by the United States Consuls in 
various towns where the witnesses resided. 

The Chairman : Who is the first witness ? 

Mr. Askwith : George Lennox Watson, of 
108 West Regent Street, Glasgow, yacht de- 
signer. 

I, George Let^ox Watson, of 108 West Regent 
Street, Glasgow, yacht designer, do hereby 
solemnly and sincerely declare as follows : 

1 . I am a yacht designer carrying on business at 
Glasgow, and have been a designer of racing yachts 
for nineteen years and during that time have had 
great experience 'in all matters connected with the 
trim, measurement, sailing and management of 
racing yachts. 



120 



2. On the sixth September, one thousand eight 
hundred and ninety-five, I went on board the De- 
fender as representative of the Valkyrie at the 
time that she was measured. Her crew were in 
position and all arrangement of weight had been 
completed for the purpose of measurement. I then 
examined the Defender very closely. I clearly 
saw a little aft of amidships a hole just below one 
of the runners. The hole appeared to be the outlet 
of some pipe and to be about an inch and three- 
eighths in diameter. At the time the vessel was 
measured the water line cut the outlet of the pipe. 
I further observed the position of the bobstay bolt 
with regard to the water line. It was the same 
distance above a plate landing as the plate landing 
was above the water. The Defender at this time 
was lying true in the water and I immedietely 
pointed out these marks with great care to Lord 
Dun raven. 

3. I was not present on the Valkyrie or the City 
of Bridgeport on the morning of September seventh, 
previous to the race, and I therefore had no oppor- 
tunity of inspecting the Defender. I attended at 
the Erie basin as representative of Valkyrie on the 
afternoon of September eighth, when the yachts 
were remeasured by order of the Cup Committee. 
Valkyrie was placed in position for official measure- 
ment first and her crew, including Lord Dunraven, 
were placed in position. She was then measured 
and I placed load marks on her forward and aft in 
conjunction with Mr. Hyslop and Mr. Herreshoff. 
I afterwards assisted at the measurement of 
Defender when Mr. Herreshoff put like marks on 
her. The result of such measurement was that 
both boats came out practically at the same length 
as that on which they had been previously 
measured. On the occasion of the remeasure 
I again observed the sides of the vessel and the 
pipe hole and marks which I had previously noticed 
were then in the same position with regard 



121 



to the water as they were when I saw them on the 
sixth. 

4. During the evening of September sixth the 
wind was blowing strongly and was rising. There 
was every appearance of there being heavy weather 
next day. It was not till early in the morning of 
the seventh that the wind suddenly dropped, leav- 
ing a still very considerable sea running. 

And I make this solemn declaration conscien- 
tiously believing the same to be true and by virtue 
of the provisions of the Statutory Declarations Act 
1835. 

George Lennox Watson, 
G. L. Watson. 

Declared before me this ninth day of Decem- 
(seal.) ber, eighteen hundred and ninety -five, at 
Glasgow, Scotland. 

Peter H. Waddell, 

Notary Public. 

Mr. AsTcwith : The next affidavit I will offer 
is that of Thomas White Ratsey, of Cowes, in 
the Isle of Wight, sailmaker. 

I, Thomas White Ratsey, of Cowes, Isle of 
Wight, England, sailmaker, do solemnly and sin- 
cerely declare that : 

1. I am a sailmaker, carrying on business at 
Cowes, Isle of Wight, England, and have carried 
on such business continuously for twenty-nine 
years. During that time I have had great experi- 
ence in all matters relating to the sailing, measure- 
ment and management of racing yachts. 

2. I was sailmaker to the yacht Yalkyrie, and, 
acting under the directions of the Earl of Dun- 
raven, I went to America in August, one thousand 
eight hundred and ninety-five, to be present at the 
American-Cap races. 

3. Upon my arrival in America I occupied a 



122 

cabin on board the City of Bridgeport, upon which 
vessel I remained during the greater portion of my 
stay in America. I, therefore, had many oppor- 
tunities of observing the yacht Defender. 

4. I was on the City of Bridgeport on the 6th 
September, one thousand eight hundred and ninety- 
five, when the yachts Defender and Valkyrie were 
measured in the Erie Basin. I carefully observed 
the Defender, my object being to see the level at 
which she floated in the water, and on that day I 
noticed that the Defender appeared to be floating 
much lighter than she floated upon occasions when 
I had previously seen her. I have no doubt of the 
fact, and so certain was I at the time that I imme- 
diately communicated to the Earl of Dunraven, 
Mr. GKLennie and Mr. Watson my conviction that 
that the yacht Defender was floating lighter than 
upon previous occasions. I did so because I 
thought it was right the fact should be communi- 
cated to Lord Dunraven and Mr. Grlennie, and 
particularly to Mr. Watson, who was to attend on 
board the Defender as the representative of the 
Valkyrie upon the occasion of the measurement of 
the Defender. 

5. I carefully observed the Defender when the 
measurement took place, and I distinctly saw that 
the load water line intersected the outlet of a pipe 
as nearly as possible amidships. I also distinctly 
observed a line of bronze plating, and also saw the 
position of the bobstay bolt, and I was present 
when Mr. Watson pointed out these marks to the 
Earl of Dunraven. 

6. On the night of the 6th September, one 
thousand eight hundred and ninety-five, I slept 
on board the City of Bridgeport, and retired 
to rest about eleven o'clock p.m. At that time 
the Defender was lying about three hundred 
yards from the City of Bridgeport, and the Val- 



123 



kyrie was also lying about three hundred yards 
from the City of Bridgeport. 

7. At about five o'clock a.m. on the morning of 
the 7th September I was aroused by Mr. Grlennie 
to look at the Defender, and I got up. At that 
time the Defender was not lying alongside the 
Hattie Palmer. I then observed the Defender 
with very great care, and I saw without any 
doubt whatsoever that at that time she was 
lying lower in the water than she had previously 
been. 

8. In consequence of my observation I and Mr. 
Glennie got into a boat and rowed up to the De- 
fender to look at her closely. At that time she 
was lying true on the water with no list either port 
or starboard. We both looked for the marks we 
had previously seen and we saw that the bobstay 
bolt and the line of bronze plating were consider- 
ably nearer the water line than when I saw the 
Defender measured in the Erie Basin and the 
pipe before mentioned was nowhere to be seen. I 
then returned to the City of Bridgeport. 

9. I again carefully observed the Defender 
shortly before the race on the seventh September. 
At the time I so observed her the Hattie Palmer 
which had previously been alongside her had left 
her; the Defender was then lying floating as 
nearly as possible in the same trim as when I saw 
her in the morning and she was floating several 
inches lower in the water than when she was meas- 
ured in the Erie Basin. 

10. At about nine o'clock on the said seventh 
September, I saw Lord Dunraven row to the De- 
fender and put Mr. Henderson on board her as 
representative of the Valkyrie during the race. 
I then saw Lord Dunraven row round the De- 
fender and return to the Valkyrie. Shortly after 
the race the Defender was taken hold of by 
her tender and towed up to Bay Ridge and the 



124 



Yalkyrie after waiting some time was towed to the 
same place. 

11. On the eighth September the following day, 
an order reached the Valkyrie that the yachts 
were to be re-measured, and I was present on the 
eighth September when the yachts went into the 
Erie Basin and the crew were placed in position and 
everything prepared for the measurement of the 
Valkyrie, but a delay of two hours occurred be- 
fore the official measurer came to measure the 
Valkyrie. So soon as the Valkyrie was measured 
she was moved away and the men on board the 
Defender were placed in position for the re-meas- 
urement of that yacht, but I did not see the De- 
fender re-measured. 

And I make this solemn declaration conscien- 
tiously, believing the same to be true and by virtue 
of the provisions of the Statutory Declarations 
Act 1835. 



Thos. W. Ratsey. 



Declared at Cowes, in the * 
Isle of Wight, this sixth 
day of December, one 
thousand eight hundred 
and ninety-five, 



Before me 

H. C. Damant, 

A Commissioner to administer 
Oaths in the Supreme Court 
of Judicature. 



125 

Mr. AsTcwith: The next affidavit is by Will- 
iam Wardley Cranfield, sailing master. 

I, William Wardley Cranfield, of Row- 
hedge, in the County of Essex, England, sailing 
master, do solemnly and sincerely declare that : 

1. I have been employed as sailing master on 
racing yachts for fifteen years and have been sail- 
ing in racing yachts for twenty-two years, and have 
had great experience in yacht racing. 

2. I was master of the Valkyrie in America 
during the cup races in September, 1895. I arrived 
in America on the 18th August, 1895. 

3. I was present and saw the Defender towed 
into the Erie Basin a day or two after the last trial 
race, and this was the first time I had an oppor- 
tunity of carefully looking over her at close quar- 
ters. I paid great attention to her water line and 
trim, and I say that from the inspection I then 
had of the Defender no pipe hole was then vis- 
ible in her port side. 

4. I saw the Defender again on the 6th Septem- 
ber in Erie Basin before she was measured. I then 
carefully observed her as to her water line, and I 
say that she was very much lighter and had the 
appearance of a ship going to be laid up. I then 
observed a pipe hole on the port side amidships, and 
the water line just cut it on the lower edge. I saw 
the pipe hole distinctly, and there is no doubt what- 
ever of the fact that it was plainly visible just above 
the water line. 

5. I again saw the Defender lying inside of 
Sandy Hook on the 7th September before the race, 
and in my opinion she was much lower in the water 
than she was when I last saw her. I was not near 
enough to see the pipe hole, but I am convinced that 
she was lower in the water. 

6. I again saw the Defender when she was 
measured on the 8th September, and I then again 



126 



saw the pipe hole on the port side in the same posi- 
tion on the water line as when I saw her on the 6th 
September, and I make this solemn declaration 
conscientiously believing the same to be true and 
by virtue of the provisions of the Statutory Dec- 
larations Act, 1835. 

William W. Cranfield. 

Declared at No. 8 Ely Place, " 
Holborn, in the County of Mid- 
dlesex, this 10th day of Decern- f 
ber, 1895. Before me, j 

(Signed) Wm. Jaques, Jr., 
A Commissioner to Administer Oaths. 

Mr. Askwith : The next affidavit is of Ed- 
ward Sycamore, sailing master. 

I, Edward Sycamore, of Brightlingsea, in the 
County of Essex, England, sailing master, do sol- 
emnly and sincerely declare as follows, that : 

1. I have been sailing master of yachts for four- 
teen years, and during the last twenty years have 
had great experience in yacht racing. 

2. I was assistant master of the Valkyrie in 
the cup races in September, 1895, and arrived in 
America in August, 1895. 

3. I saw the Defender in the Erie Basin a day 
or two after the last trial race, and I then carefully 
observed her at close quarters with a view of look- 
ing at her water line and her trim. No pipe hole 
was then visible on the port side above the water 
line. 

4. I next saw the Defender on the 6th Sep- 
tember in the Erie Basin before she was measured, 
and I then observed a pipe hole in her port side 
amidships, the water line cutting it on the lower 
edge. It was distinctly visible. I also observed 
that she was very much lighter than when I saw 
her on the previous occasion. 

5. On the morning of the 7th September I again 



127 



saw the Defender, but I was not near enough 
to see the position of the pipe hole, but I distinctly 
saw that the vessel was much lower in the water 
than when I saw her upon the 6th September. 

6. I again saw the Defender in the Erie Basin, 
where she was lying for re-measurement. I saw her 
both before and after she was measured, and I 
clearly observed the pipe hole on the port side in 
the same position as to the water line as when I 
saw her on the 6th September. 

And I make this solemn declaration conscien- 
tiously, believing the same to be true, and by virtue 
of the provisions of the Statutory Declaration Act, 
1835. 

(Signed) Edwaed Sycamore. 

Declared at No. 8 Ely Place, 1 
Holborn, in the County of Mid- I 
dlesex, this 5th day of Decem- 
ber, 1895, befor me, 

(Signed) Wi. Jaqites, Jr., 

A Commissioner to Administer Oaths. 

Mr. AsTcwith : The next is the affidavit of 
Mr. Arthur Glennie, which I propose to take 
in the same way as I did Lord Dunraven's, 
reading it as a part of his evidence, asking 
him some further questions upon it. 

I, Arthur Herbert Glennie, of 15 Devonshire 
Street, Portland Place, in the County of London, 
England, Rear- Commodore of the Royal Ports- 
mouth Corinthian Yacht Club, do solemnly and 
sincerely declare that 

1. I am a yacht owner, and have taken an active 
part and a great interest in yacht circles for the 
last fifteen years. 

2. On the invitation of the Earl of Dunraven to 
be present on the Yalkyrie during her contest 
with the Defender in September, 1895, I went 
to America, arriving there on the 14th August, 



128 



1895, and stayed during my visit in America on 
board the City of Bridgeport. 

3. On the 6th September, 1895, I saw the De- 
fender and the Valkyrie in the Erie Basin for 
the purpose of measurement. I distinctly noticed 
that the Defender was floating very light, and 
remarks of this fact were made by those on board 
the Valkyrie. I carefully looked at the Defender, 
and I distinctly saw a pipe hole on the port 
side, amidship ; and that the water came up high 
enough just to cover the lower edge of the pipe 
hole, but leaving the whole of the pipe hole clear. 

4. After the yachts were measured they were towed 
down to Sandy Hook, the Valkyrie going first and 
the Defender coming later, taking up her position 
about 300 yards ahead of the City of Bridgeport. 

5. On the 7th September I got up at about 
five a.m., and looked at the Defender through a 
pair of opera glasses and I was very much struck 
when I clearly perceived that the Defender was 
much deeper in the water than when she was meas- 
ured. I thereupon without any delay awoke Mr. 
Katsey and he and I at six o'clock a.m., got into 
the gig and rowed to the Defender. We rowed 
around the Defender inspecting her carefully and 
I saw distinctly that she was at that time much 
deeper in the water than when she was measured. 
I looked for the pipe hole before mentioned and it 
was then covered by the water and could not be 
seen. In addition to this the vessel looked much 
deeper. 

6. From my knowledge of yachts and of all that 
pertains to them, I was then and am still quite con- 
vinced that the Defender was much deeper in 
the water that time than when she was measured. 
We returned to the City of Bridgeport about half- 
past six a.m. I then woke Lord Dunraven and 
told him of the condition of the Defender as I 
had just seen her. About nine o'clock, I, with 



129 



others, went on board the Yalkyrie and Lord 
Dunraven steered the gig to the Defender to pnt 
Mr. Henderson, his representative, on board that 
yacht. Lord Dnnraven told me before he started, 
that he would go and look for himself and when he 
returned he told me he had not the slightest doubt 
that the Defender was much lower in the water 
than when she was measured. 

7. Mr. Latham Fish, the American representa- 
tive, came on board the Valkyrie about half -past 
nine and I saw Lord Dunraven talking to him. I 
did not hear the whole of the conversation, but I 
heard Lord Dunraven say that he would put him 
on board the Committee boat directly the race was 
over, and Lord Dunraven, directly after I had seen 
him in conversation with Mr. Fish, told me he had 
put the whole case before him and asked for the 
vessels to be taken charge of directly after the race 
until they were remeasured. 

8. After finishing the first match both vessels 
were towed to Bay Ridge for the night. The Hattie 
Palmer went alongside as usual. 

9. Both yachts were remeasured on the Eighth 
September and when the Defender was in the basin 
for remeasuring I saw the pipe hole showing above 
the water in exactly the same manner as it did 
when the Defender was first measured and the 
yacht appeared to be at that time in exactly the 
same trim as when she was first measured. 

9. And I make this solemn Declaration conscien- 
tiously believing the same to be true, and in virtue 
of the provisions of the Statutory Declarations Act, 
1835. 

A. H. Glennie. 
Declared at No. 7 Ely place, 
Holborn, in the County of Lon- 
don, this 5th day of December, 
1895. Before me, 

Geo. Readeb, 

a Commissioner for Oaths. 



130 



Arthur Herbert Glennte, called as a witness : 
By Mr. AsJcwith : 

Q. I would like to ask you a few further ques- 
tions. You were on the Valkyrie when you were 
going down to the first race? A. Yes. 

Q. And Lord Dunraven gave you the conversa- 
tion that he had with Mr. Latham Fish? A. He 
told me that he had had a conversation with Mr. 
Latham Fish, and had told him everything about 
everything ; but what time of the day it was I do 
not know. 

Q. Did he say anything to you about what he 
had asked Mr. Latham Fish to do, with regard to 
taking charge of the yacht? A. Certainly. He 
told me he had told him everything and asked him 
to put it before the Committee. 

Mr. Rives : This is not exactly evidence. 
Mr. AsJcwith : No ; legally, I suppose not. 
Mr. Choate : I do not know how far it could 
be heard without objections. I assume that it 
is not evidence at all. 

The Chairman : It is not legal evidence, of 
course. 

Mr. Rives; I suppose we will take it for 
what it is worth. 

The Chairman : Yes. 

Mr. AsJcwith : It is, of course, conversation, 
taking place without other parties being pres- 
ent, but there have been a good many other 
conversations of that kind. 

Mr. Rives : I only called your attention to 
it, that it is not of very much value, of course, 
in determining the question. 

Mr. AsJcwitJi : It is an endorsement of Lord 
Dunraven' s statement, that, according to his 
view, which he published in the pamphlet, he 
had very earnestly brought before Mr. Fish his 
desire for charge to be taken of the yacht and 
for re -measurement. 
Q. In regard to one or two questions that were 



131 



put to Lord Dunraven, are you certain that on the 
Sunday when the re-measurement took place you 
saw the pipe hole showing above the water in ex- 
actly the same manner as you did when the 
Defender was first measured? A. Exactly in the 
same condition. 

Q. Of course you endorse every word in this 
affidavit. Have you any further statement to make 
upon it? A. No. 

Q. In your opinion you have no doubt what- 
soever that the Defender was more deeply im- 
mersed upon the day of the first race than she had 
been at the time when she went, to be re-measured? 
A. Not any. 

By Mr. Choate : 

Q. When you returned from the Defender that 
morning it appeared that you, as your affidavit 
says, wrote Lord Dunraven. That means " awoke," 
I suppose? A. Awoke. 

Q. And told him the condition of the Defender 
as you had just seen her, that is, you told him 
that the water pipe or outlet pipe could not be 
seen, did you not? A. I told him that in the 
opinion of Mr. Ratsey and myself the boat did 
not appear to be floating the same as when she was 
measured. 

Q. Is that all you told him? Did you not tell 
him that the water pipe had disappeared? A. I 
may have. 

Q. Did you or not? I want to get at, if I can, 
just what Lord Dunraven learned from you, and 
of course believed before he started to look at the 
Defender. Did you not tell him that the water 
pipe, which had been plainly visible when she was 
measured, had disappeared? A. I should think 
not. I doubt it. I said — I told him straight that 
in the opinion of Mr. Ratsey and myself, who had 
been to the vessel, she did not appear to be floating 
the same. 



132 



Q. Is that all you told him? A. As far as I 
know. 

Q. Let me read your affidavit, or a part of it: 
" We rowed around the Defender, inspecting her 
carefully, and I saw distinctly that she was at that 
time much deeper in the water than when she was 
measured. I looked for the pipe hole before men- 
tioned, and it was then covered by the water and 
could not be seen. I awoke Lord Dunraven and 
told him the condition of the Defender as I had 
just seen her." Did you not tell him that the 

water pipe A. I may or may not. I should 

think not. I think I told him generally. 

Q. You simply told him that you found her 
much more deeply immersed than she was before? 
A. In my opinion that she looked more deeply im- 
mersed. 

Q. Did you measure the extra immersion? A. 
No ; I did not gauge it at all. I should not dream 
of doing it. 

Q. Why not? A. Because it would be very 
hard to gauge. The bronze plating showing, and 
the ends of the pipe hole, and the general appear- 
ance of the boat, struck me ; but I should not at- 
tempt to gauge the amount of immersion. 

Q. You mean you did not think you could rely 
upon your naked eye to do that? A. Individ- 
ually, no. 

Q. I have heard that you are described as Rear 
Commodore of the Royal Portsmouth Corinthian 
Yacht Club. You are an experienced yachtsman, 
are you not? A. For an amateur, yes. 

Q. You think it would require a very remark- 
able faculty of vision, do you not, to determine 
three or four inches difference of immersion on two 
observations of a yacht? A. It is a matter of 
opinion. Some people might have keener eyes 
than others. 

Q. Do you know of anybody but Lord Dun- 



133 



raven whom you think could do it? A. I should 
think that many an expert could do it. 

Q. You think it is attainable by sufficient prac- 
tice? A. I should think so, sir. 

Q. At what date did you arrive in America? A. 
On the 14th of August. 

Q. Your affidavit says that from your arrival 
you stayed during your visit to America on 
board the City of Bridgeport. Did you go right 
on board of her that day? A. No; I was on 
board the Bridgeport from the moment she was 
ready. 

Q. About when was that? A. On the Saturday 
evening, the 17th of August. 

Q. So that you were here some days before? 
A. I was here on the evening of the 14th and the 
15th and 16th. 

Q. Did you meet Mr. Kersey after your arrival? 
A. I did. 

Q. How often did you see him from that day 
until the 6th of September? A. I saw him for the 
first three days in New York — the first two days 
and a half that I was in the town — and I forget 
what day he came on board the Bridgeport to live. 
He ran down occasionally. I saw him naturally 
very often. 

Q. Had the trial races all been sailed? A. No; 
I saw, I think it was the second one. I can ex- 
plain what the race was. I believe it was the 
second one. When they were stopped 

Q. Did you hear anything about the Defender? 
Mr. Glennie : In what way? 
Mr. CJioate : About her in any way. 
Mr. Glennie: As regards what? 
Mr. Choate : About her ballast. 
A. Nothing at all. 

Q. Did you receive any intimation before the 
6th day of September that an attempt had been 
made by the Defender in the trial races, and might 



134 



be made in the cup races, to increase her ballast? 
A. Certainly not. 

Q. No intimation of any kind from any source? 
A. None whatever, that I am aware of. 

Q. And then, when you first saw her, your mind 
was entirely free from any prepossession on the 
subject? A. Absolutely; yes. 

Q. When did you first see the Defender? When 
she sailed in the second trial race? A. No, 
in the dock, when I first arrived, in the dry- 
dock. 

Q. That was before she sailed the second trial 
race? A. Before she sailed the second trial 
race. 

Q. I suppose you saw her during that race? 
A. Yes. 

Q. And there was a third trial race, was there 
not? A. Yes. 

Q. And you saw her on that race? A. Yes. 

Q. You say in your affidavit that you distinctly 
noticed on the 6th of September that the Defender 
was floating very light? A. Yes. 

Q. Do you mean by that very light as compared 
with what jou had seen her before? A. No, not 
with what I had seen her before, but her general 
appearance. 

Q. I would like to get your idea of what you 
mean by stating that you noticed the Defender was 
floating very light? A. My idea was this: that 
when she came into the dock, instantly there was 
general conversation among our leading men, the 
sailing master and assistant sailing master and 
others; a general conversation: " How awfully 
light she looks." 

Q. "Awfully light?" A. Cranfield said, " Yes, 
she looks very much like our vessels going up on 
the slip in the winter, taking out any spare stuff 
there was, to take out more or less water." And 
I made the joking remark, "There is no telling 
what she will do, Mr. Herreshoff is an extremely 



135 



clever man ; but she looks extremely light." That 
was the speaking all through. 

Q. She looked as if she had no ballast then? A. 
Oh, certainly not, she looked as if she was ex- 
tremely light. She looked as if she was extremely 
high in the water. 

Q. Did you go aboard of her? A. Never. 

Q. You say that on that occasion, on the 6th of 
September, you carefully looked at the Defender 
from the City of Bridgeport? A. From the City 
of Bridgeport and the Valkyrie. 

Q. How far away were they respectively from 
the Defender when you so looked from them at 
the Defender? A. A very few feet. The Bridge- 
port was at the tail end of the little jetty at 
the dock, and the Defender was with her star- 
board side alongside the quay, where there was a 
ship that had been burned, with jute. A very few 
feet. 

Q. Which side of the Defender was towards the 
dock? A. The starboard side. 

Q. Then it was her port side that you carefully 
looked at? A. The port side where everybody 
practically at the same time called attention to the 
pipe hole and the bronze. 

Q. You did not row up to her from the 
City of Bridgeport or the Valkyrie at all? A. 
No. 

Q. Was the Bridgeport lying at all outside of 
her or on the same line on the dock? A. The 
Bridgeport would have been practically at right 
angles to her. 

Q. At right angles to her? A. Her nose facing 
the Defender's nose, like that (describing). 

Q. At the corner of the dock, or what? A. One 
alongside of the pier here, and the Bridgeport 
alongside a little jetty, if I am not mistaken. 

Q. How about the relative position of the 
Valkyrie at that time, when you looked from 
her? A. The Valkyrie was practically alongside 



136 



the Bridgeport. You could walk from one to the 
other. 

Q. Could you tell the size of that pipe? A. In 
my mind at home, I carried it away as about the 
size of a two shilling piece. Of course, I can't 
guarantee accurately what it was. 

Q. That would be about an inch? A. I suppose 
about that. 

Q. And was it circular? A. Yes. 

Q. Did you see two pipe holes? A. No, one. 

Q. You, of course, formed no judgment as to 
what her water line was, independent of the meas- 
urement? 

Mr. Glennie : In the dock? 
Mr. Choate : On the 6th of September, be- 
fore the measurement was announced? 
A. No; I thought she would be getting very near 
the dimensions of the cup racing boat. 

Q. Ninety feet? A. Ninety. 

Q. But you could not rely much on your eye for 
that? A. No; she looked a very deceiving boat 
indeed, looked a very small boat. 

Q. What do you mean by saying she looked a 
very " deceiving" boat? A. She looked a very 
small boat, carrying an enormous amount of 
canvas. 

Q. You did not get the idea that she was a de- 
ceiving boat? 

Mr. Glennie : Towards the end? 
Mr. Choate : At that time? 
Mr. Glennie : What way do you mean? 
Mr. Choate : Any way. 

Q. What started you up so early on September 
7? A. It is my usual hour for getting up, if not 
before. 

Q. I understand you were then 300 yards away 
from the Defender? A. I should think it must 
have been really less than that. It was a great 
deal too far off to see without the opera glasses, 
properly. 



137 



Q. You say "the Defender coming later, took 
up her position about 300 yards ahead of the City 
of Bridgeport"? A. Yes, sir. It is a wee bit 
difficult to estimate the distance. 

Q. That was about where she lay from the time 
she took up her position until you looked at her 
through the opera glasses? A. Yes. 

Q. You do not know of any change of position? 
A. No. 

Q. Where was the Yalkyrie at that time? A. 
The Yalkyrie was on the port bow of the Bridge- 
port. Here would be the Bridgeport and here 
would be the Yalkyrie and Jiere would be the De- 
fender (describing). 

Q. Which was the nearest to the Defender, the 
Yalkyrie or the City of Bridgeport? A. The 
Yalkyrie. 

Q. How much nearer? A. I should think about 
less than half way. 

Q. Lord Dunraven has put it, I think, at 200 
yards. That would be about your judgment? A. 
That would be about it. 

Q. And from neither, in your judgment, could 
this pipe hole be seen, even with glasses? A. I 
did not attempt to look for it with a glass, because 
I considered it too far. 

Q. What did you look at with the opera glasses? 
A. It was the general appearance of the boat, and 
I did not make up my mind or form any definite 
opinion until I had waked Mr. Ratsey. 

Q. After waking Mr. Ratsey did you come to a 
conclusion and make up your mind? A. We both 
of us came to a very decided conclusion. 

Q. That she was deeper in the water than she 
had been when measured? A. The remark that 
we made to each other was that she looked really 
quite a different vessel. 

By Mr. Rives : 

Q. Was the sun up at this time, at five o'clock? 



138 



A. We did not go at five. I turned out at five. 
We did not go until six. 

Q. When was it you first saw the Defender that 
morning? A. I turned out at five and had my tea. 
I dare say possibly it would be about half -past five. 

Q. The sun would be about rising at that time? 
A. I should think so. 

By Mr. Choate : 

Q. From the City of Bridgeport, after you had 
waked Mr. Ratsey, did you form a conclusion, after 
talking with him, before you got into the gig? A. 
No definite conclusion, no. That is the reason I 
got into the gig. I would not commit myself. 

Q. And in your judgment, from the City of 
Bridgeport at that distance, no definite conclu- 
sion could be drawn? A. It depends upon the eye 
of the person looking. 

Q. It would require a capable expert, would 
it not, to determine definitely from the City of 
Bridgeport, 300 yards off, a difference of three or 
four inches in her immersion? A. I do not say 
anything about three or four inches. She looked 
a different vessel. 

Q. Are you sure it was the same vessel ? A. Yes. 

Q. How close to her did you go in the gig? A. 
Quite close, comparatively. About as far off as — 
half again as far off as the window, perhaps. 

Q. Did you row around her? A. No, sir, not 
around. Along the port and ahead, before 
going back. 

Q. How near to the port side did you go? A. I 
should think, roughly, about twice as far as that 
window from where I am now (indicating). 

Q. You did not come in actual contact with her? 
A. No. 

Mr. Rives : How was the boat heading at 
that time? Lying head to the westward? 
The Witness : I forget what the westward 



139 



was. More to the north, I think; more 
towards Brooklyn. That would be north, 
would it not? 

Lord Dunraven : That would be south. 

By Mr. Choate : 

Q. Was her starboard side towards the City of 
Bridgeport? A. Yes. 

Q. Did you row around her stern or around her 
bow, or both? A. Beginning on the port side, we 
rowed practically from the stern, on the port side, 
and then straight ahead for a few yards and then 
home again. 

Q. Did you row the whole length of her port 
side? A. Oh, yes. 

Q. And around again to the starboard side? A. 
No. 

Mr. Choate : You must have got on the 
starboard side to get back to the City of 
Bridgeport? 
Mr. Glennie : Why? 
Q. Did you not say the starboard side was 
towards the Bridgeport? A. No, head on. 

Q. Down there at the Horseshoe, where she lay 

that morning 

Mr. Rives : At this time the boats were 
lying head to the northward, according to Mr. 
Glennie. 

Mr. Glennie : Whichever way it was, they 
were lying the same. 

Mr. Rives : And subsequently when Lord 
Dunraven saw them, the boats had swung so 
that they were lying head to the westward. 

By Mr. Choate : 

Q. What sort of weather was it there, as you re- 
member it? A. Perfectly smooth when we went 
alongside. 

Q. Perfectly smooth? A. Perfectly smooth. 

Q. You did not observe the ripple that Lord 



140 



Dunraven spoke of? A. There is a difference in 
the hour of the morning. There was practically no 
ripple then, when we went out ; no ripple and no 
swell. 

Q. And no lifting? A. No. 

Q. You formed no judgment as to how much her 
water line had been extended beyond what it was 
at the time of the measurements on Friday, did 
you? A. No, I have not committed myself in any 
way. It is very difficult to gauge the depth. The 
thing I went by most was just the general appear- 
ance of the vessel, and no pipe hole. 

Q. Did you form any opinion as to how much 
she was immersed? A. I have on one or two 
occasions said that I considered that she was im- 
mersed about an inch and a half, but I have not 
committed myself. 

Q. You say you formed what opinion you did, 
not from determining the degree of her immersion, 
nor the length of her load water line, but from the 
general appearance of the vessel. What did you 
observe except the water pipe? A. First of all 
the water pipe, which would bring practically one 
and one-half inches there; and then Mr. Ratsey 
and I, both, thought she was trimmed more by the 
stern. 

Q. You observed nothing about the bobstay 
iron? A. In the dock it looked very high. 

Q. Did you look at it as you rowed around the 
Defender in the morning? A. The whole vessel 
looked as if she were lying deeper. 

Q. I asked you if you observed particularly the 
bobstay iron? A. Not particularly. 

Q. Did you observe the bronze plating. A. Yes. 

Q. What did you observe about that? A. I 
observed that the whole way along there appeared 
to be less of it. 

Q. Then you gave Lord Dunraven no particulars 
whatever, because you did not observe them, except 
the disappearance of the pipe? A. Not because I 



141 



had not observed them, but because he was going to 
look himself. He told me he was going to look 
himself. 

Q. You did not tell him about the pipe then ? A. 
Not that I am aware of. 

Q. Did you see Mr. Fish when he came on board? 
A. Yes. 

Q. Was he in your sight until he left the boat? 
A. Not if he was down below and I was on deck. 

Q. How much of the day did you see him? A. 
I cannot say really. 

Q. How many times did you see him in conver- 
sation with Lord Dunraven? A. I really cannot 
say ; several times. 

Q. Did you see him writing? A. No. 

Q. Did you see Mr. Kersey bring him a piece of 
paper? A. Not that I remember. 

Q. Were you present at the re-measurement on 
Sunday? A. Yes. 

Q. And I understand your testimony to be that 
you saw the pipe hole just as you did on the Fri- 
day? A. I considered the vessel looked identically 
the same. 

Q. Lying very light? You thought she was 
floating very light? A. I say, identically the same. 

Q. Did you not see some lead put into the De- 
fender at the Basin? A. No. 

Q. Or into the Valkyrie ? A. I saw Valkyrie's 
lying on the floor. I never saw the Defender's, 
and never knew that they had any put in until 
just lately. 

Q. Do you know how long the Hattie Palmer 
lay alongside the Defender at the Hook? A. No, 
only by hearsay from our second mate. 

Q. Was it your second mate who gave you the 
information that she lay there until one o'clock in 
the morning? A. That is what he told Mr. Ratsey 
and myself; or until midnight, or sometime — I 
think he said one o'clock. 



142 



Q. Do you know how long she lay alongside at 
Bay Ridge the night after the race? A. No, sir. 

Q. I suppose you did not regard it as any of 
your business to do anything about this difference 
between the Defender, as she was when re-measured 
and as she was on the race? You had no function 
to perform? A. Not the slightest. 

The Chairman : Anything further from Mr. 
Glennie ? 

Mr. Askwith : No, I have no further ques- 
tions to ask. 

By Mr. Hives ; 

Q. Where did the Valkyrie go that night of 
Saturday? Was she at Bay Ridge? A. She went 
to Bay Ridge. 

Q. Did you see the Defender up there? A. 
I won't be certain. I think the Defender ]ay a 
little bit ahead of us. 

Q. Not far off ? A. Not very far. 

By Mr. Whitney : 

Q. There was a pretty light wind at the first race, 
was there not? A. The first race was a light wind 
and the remains of a sea which left a nasty swell. 

Q. Had you seen the Defender carrying her sail 
in any heavy weather before, in the trial races ? A. 
Yes ; the day that she broke her mast, I believe, 
or they were afraid of her mast. I heard something 
of that kind. 

Q. What did you think of her stability and 
ability to carry sails? 

Mr. Glennie : What did I think about her? 
Mr. Whitney : Yes. 
A. I thought she was a beautiful vessel. 

Q. I mean as to that point. I will ask you this 
question : What effect do you think, as it after- 
wards turned out, the deeper immersion would 
have had in regard to her speed on day of the first 
race? 



143 



Mr. Glennie : The deeper immersion than 
what? 

Mr. Whitney : Than her true line? 
A. I should think that no boat would sail better on 
a deeper immersion than her true lines. The ques- 
tion is : What are the true lines? 

Q. In light weather like that — You assume 
that she was below her measured line, and the 
lines on which she sailed in the subsequent races, 
do you not? A. I do not assume that she was 
below her proper line at any time. 

Q. I thought you did, below the line at which 
she had been measured — do you not? A. Not 
necessarily below her proper line, sir. 

Q. She certainly was entitled to raoe on the lines 
in which she was measured, was she not? A. Cer- 
tainly. 

Q. I understand you to suppose that in the 
meantime she had had ballast put in? A. I do not 
know that she had. 

Q. So that she was lower, or at all events, was 
lower in the water than when she was measured? 
A. She looked lower in the water. 

Q. What effect on that day, as it turned out, do 
you think it could have had upon her speed? A. 
Oh, I really do not know. 

Q. Would it have increased or decreased her 
speed? A. It is very hard to say. 

Q. Do you think it would be an advantage or 
disadvantage to forge through the water, on that 
day with the same amount of sails, with a larger 
hull? A. I should think very likely, with a heavy 
swell, the slight extra weight might be better, 
possibly. 

Q. Is that your judgment? A. Well, I really 
do not know. My judgment does not go for much. 

Q. I was only asking for your judgment as a 
yachtsman? A. It is a pretty hard question to 
answer, sir. 

Q. You would not like to express an opinion? 



144 



Mind you, I suppose the idea of additional ballast 
is to give more stability in heavy weather, is it not? 
A. Certainly. 

Q. You thought, as the wind blew that night, it 
was going to be a heavy weather day? A. So they 
told me. 

Q. Did not that condition arise from that? A. 
I had been so deceived by the weather ever since 
I had arrived, that I would not express any 
opinion, because every time they said it was going 
to blow it turned out to be a calm. 

Q. Judging by your statement that all night 
there was a promise of heavy weather the next 

day A. It would be so in our country. It 

looked as if there was to be a breeze, and very heavy, 
and it was not the fact. 

Q. Did you not think from that fact that they 
were going to get more stability by putting in 
heavier ballast? A. I never gave the thing a 
thought. 

Q. Did you form in your own mind an opinion 
as to how this deeper immersion had been caused? 
A. No ; I did not. I did not know what to think. 
We have had trouble in England, and sometimes it 
has been water, sometimes it has been not taking 
the gear out, sometimes it has been a little extra 
lead. There have been forty and one ways. 

Q. Did you form any idea how much must have 
been put in her to cause the immersion that was 
caused? A. No; I am told that — my estimate 
would have been, roughly, I suppose about six 
tons. 

Q. Then you did form the opinion that after she 
was measured on Friday, six tons were imported 
into her and taken out again before the measure- 
ment on Sunday, did you not? A. I suppose it 
will have to be answered, yes. 

Q. And you could believe that in this way a 
fraud had been committed? A. I do not know 
about the word fraud. I am sorry to say that these 



145 



things have happened in England ; and that is the 
reason of putting on external marks, in England. 

Q. It must have been intentional in your judg- 
ment? A. It would hardly have got there by 
itself. 

Q. It must have been carried in? A. Not neces- 
sarily carried in. 

Q. Do you know whether, when you made your 
observation, the bedding had been taken off the 
Defender, when you went down at six o'clock 
in the gig? A. No. 

Mr. AsTcwith : In obtaining as much in- 
formation as we can to lay before this Commis- 
sion, I have here various affidavits of the crew 
of the Valkyrie, which I do not think it is 
necessary for me to read at full length. What 
they go to show is that until half -past eleven 
the Hattie Palmer was lying alongside the 
Defender, and work was going on upon 
Defender throughout the night ; that a knock- 
ing, and apparently movements of different 
kinds were going on upon the Defender. 
That was what was noticed from the deck 
of the Valkyrie. 

Mr. Choate : During what time do they say ? 
Up to what hour? A. During the time that 
the Hattie Palmer was there beside her. 

Mr. Choate : What time do they give — up 
to what hour? Midnight or morning? 

Mr. AsJcwith : Perhaps it would be more 
simple, really, to read them. The first is of 
William Russell, Sidney Street, Brightlingsea, 
a yachtsman. 

I, William Russell, of Sidney Street, Bright- 
lingsea, in the County of Essex, England, Yachts- 
man, do solemnly and sincerely declare that 

1. I am now in the service of Mr. Walker, the 
owner of the yacht Ailsa, lying at Fay's Yard, 
in the town of Southampton, as an A. B. 



146 



2. In September, 1895, I was an A. B. on the 
yacht Valkyrie in America. 

3. I was on watch on board the Yalkyrie from 
8 to 10 o'clock in the evening of the 6th September. 
During that time the Hetty Palmer was along- 
side the Defender, and I saw lights during the 
whole of that time passing between the De- 
fender and the Hetty Palmer. 

And I make this solemn declaration con- 
scientiously believing the same to be true and by 
virtue of the provisions of the Statutory Declara- 
tions Act, 1835. 

William Kussell. 

Declared at the Town and 
County of the Town of South- 
ampton this 10th day of De- 
cember, 1895. Before me, 

E. T. Westlake, 
A Commissioner for Oaths in 
England. 

Mr. As'kwitTi : The next one is the affidavit 
of Luther Gould, yachtsman. 
I, Luther G-ould, of Silcott Street, Brightling- 
sea, in the County of Essex, England, yachtsman, 
do solemnly and sincerely declare that 

1. I am now in the service of Mr. Walker, owner 
of the yacht Ailsa, lying at Fay's Yard, in the 
Town of Southampton, as A. B. 

2. I was second mate of the Yalkyrie in 
America in September, 1895. 

3. On the night of the 6th September, 1895, I 
was in charge of the anchor watch on board the 
Yalkyrie. I took charge of the watch at about 
half-past 8 or 9 o'clock and remained in charge of 
that watch till about 5.30 on the morning of the 
7th. I did not turn in before 12 at midnight on 
the 6th. I went on deck at intervals up to about 
5.30 on the morning of the 7th. 



147 



4. I observed the Hetty Palmer lying along- 
side the Defender at about 10 o'clock, and she 
remained alongside until about half- past eleven 
that night, and a light was passing between the 
Defender and the Hetty Palmer until half-past 11 
that night. 

And I make this solemn Declaration conscien- 
tiously, believing the same to be true and by virtue 
of the provisions of the Statutory Declarations 
Act, 1835. 

Luther Gould. 



V 



Declared at the Town and "j 
County of the Town of South- 
ampton, this 10th day of De- 
cember, 1895. Before me, 

E. T. Westlake, 
A Commissioner for Oaths in 
England. 



*Mr. AsJcwith : The next one is John Clark, 
able seaman : 

I, John Clark, of 1 Williams Walk, Colchester, 
in the County of Essex, able seaman, do solemnly 
and sincerely declare as follows : 

1. In August, 1895, I went to America as one of 
the crew of the Valkyrie. 

2. On the night of the 6th September, 1895, I 
went on board the "Valkyrie about six o'clock, 
and was at various times between six and ten 
o'clock on deck, and I saw the Hatty Palmer 
lying alongside the Defender. At 10 o'clock I 
went on duty in the anchor watch until 12 o'clock, 
and during those two hours I was on deck con- 
tinuously. 

3. From about eight o'clock that evening until 
about half-past eleven I saw from time to time 
a light passing between the Defender and the 
Hetty Palmer. At about half-past eleven the 



148 



Hatty Palmer left tlie Defender and made her 
anchor about 100 yards from the Defender. 

4. After the Hatty Palmer had left the 
Defender, and up to 12 o'clock, when I went 
below, a light was moving about the deck of 
Defender, and I heard men moving about on her 
deck. 

And I make this solemn declaration conscien- 
tiously believing the same to be true, and by virtue 
of the provisions of the Statutory Declarations Act 
1835. 

John Clark. 

Declared at No. 8 Ely Place, 1 
Holborn, in the County of J 
Middlesex, this 10th day of [ 
December, 1895. Before me, J 

Wm. Jaques, Jr., 
A Commissioner to Administer Oaths. 



Mr. AsJcwith : The next is the affidavit of 
William Henry Green, able seaman : 

I, William Henry Green, of West Street, 
Wyvenhoe, in the County of Essex, able seaman, 
do solemnly and sincerely declare as follows : 

1. In August, 1895, I went to America as one of 
the crew of the Valkyrie. 

2. On the night of the 6th September, 1895, I 
went on board the Valkyrie about six o'clock, 
and was on the deck at various times until ten 
o'clock, when I turned in. 

3. 1 was on duty in the^ anchor watch from 2 
o'clock, when I relieved Roper, until 4 o'clock. 

4. Between two and four o'clock I was on deck 
continuously, and I saw a light moving about the 
deck of Defender during my watch ; I also saw 
men moving about and heard the sounds of knock- 
ing on board Defender. 

And I make this solemn declaration conscien- 



149 



tiously believing the same to be true, and by virtue 
of the Statutory Declarations Act 1835. 

The mark of 
X 

William Henry Green. 

Declared at 8 Ely Place, Hol- 
born, in the County of Lon- 
don, this 10th day of De- 
cember, 1895, I, having first 
truly, distinctly and audibly 
read over the contents of \- 
this declaration to the declar- 
ant, who appeared perfectly 
to understand the same and 
made his mark thereto in my 
presence. 

Wm. Jaques, Jr., 

A Commissioner for Oaths. 



Mr, Askwith : The next is that of Edward 
Roper, able seaman. 

I, Edward Roper, of Chapel Street, Rowhedge, 
in the County of Essex, able seaman, do solemnly 
and sincerely declare as follows : 

1. In August, 1895, I went to America as one of 
the crew of the Valkyrie. 

2. On the night of the 6th September, 1895, I 
went on board the Valkyrie, about six o'clock, 
and was at various times on deck until about half 
past eight, when I turned in. I saw the Hatty 
Palmer lying alongside Defender. 

3. At twelve o'clock I went on duty in the an- 
chor watch and relieved John Clark. I remained 
on duty and was on deck continuously from twelve 
till two. 

The Hatty Palmer was then lying about one 
hundred yards from the Defender. 

4. During my watch, viz., from twelve till two 
o'clock, I saw a light moving about the deck of the 



150 



Defender and men moving about, but I could not 
see what they were doing. 

And I make this solemn declaration conscien- 
tiously, believing the same to be true, and by virtue 
of the provisions of the Statutory Declarations Act 
1835. 

Edwaed Ropek. 

Declared at No. 8 Ely Place, ] 
Holborn, in the County of 
Middlesex, this 10th day of 
December, 1895. Before me, J 

Wm. Jaques, Jk., 
A Commissioner to Administer Oaths. 

Mr. AsJcwith: That is the information that 
Lord Dunraven is able to give to this Com- 
mission. He takes the attitude that it is 
now impossible for this complaint of his, 
• made at the time, to be verified ; that he has 
given what assistance he can, and has come to 
America to give such assistance as he can in 
the matter. He does not take the position of 
prosecuting any person or of proving any more 
than simply the nature of his complaint, and 
that he reiterated, on November 9th, a com- 
plaint stated on September 7, and not then ex- 
amined. And any assistance further that we 
can give in the course of the enquiry, of course 
we have taken the position that we shall give ; 
but we do not propose to go into the question 
of attempting, without evidence, which we can- 
not now obtain, to attack the statements which 
we have no material to properly investigate. 
We must leave investigation to the Committee 
with such assistance as we are able to give 
them. 

Mr. Hives: Between now and to-morrow 
morning, could you and the other gentlemen 
mark on one of the charts there the points 
where the Defender anchored during the night 



151 



of Friday, and also the points where the race 
started and ended on Saturday? We would 
like to get your judgment about that. 

Mr. AsTcwith: What time on Friday? 

Mr. Rives: Mark on the chart the anchorage 
of the Defender on Friday night, and also the 
point where the race ended on Saturday. 
There has been some question as to the distance 
she had to tow up, and so on. I think there 
would be no dispute about that, but if you 
could mark it on the chart and show it, it 
would be an advantage. 

Lord Dunraven: You want us to mark the 
position of the vessels as they lay in the 
Horseshoe? 

Mr. Rives: As they lay in the Horseshoe 
and also the point where the race ended on 
Saturday. A question has arisen as to the 
distance you had to tow up. We would like 
to have it so that it could be agreed ux3on by 
all parties, where that was. 

Lord Dunraven: The race ended at the light 
ship? 

Mr. Rives; No, not on Saturday. It ended 
about three miles northeast of the village of 
Seabright. It ended where it started. 

Lord Dunraven: Yes, that is so. We will 
do our best to do that. 

Mr. AsTcwith: I will enquire of Lord Dun- 
raven and Mr. Glennie as to the positions. 

Lord Dunraven: We will endeavor to do 
so. 

Mr. Choate: I do not think it requires any 
opening statement upon my part. We shall 
call several witnesses, we shall satisfactorily 
disprove what Lord Dunraven and his counsel 
have expressed their entire inability to prove. 
They have shed no light upon the statement 
contained in his letter, that it was possible for 
those three separate acts of fraud — for those 



152 



three episodes in one scheme of fraud — to be 
accomplished without the knowledge of the 
managing owner of the Defender. We assert 
that it is utterly impossible that any such thing 
could have been done without the full knowl- 
edge of Mr. Iselin, and that any experienced 
yachtsman must know that perfectly well. 
We propose to prove by the designer of this 
boat, Defender, on what theory and scheme 
she was built as a competitor, and a success- 
ful competitor, for the America's Cup. We 
shall show that she sailed in the trial races 
without any ballast whatever, and that she 
sailed those races as she was designed, and 
fulfilled the expectations of her designer ; and 
that, as she had then been a successful com- 
petitor over the Vigilant, it was his purpose 
as well as the purpose of her owners that she 
should be prepared and trimmed and ballasted 
to sail the cup races as nearly as j)ossible as 
she was upon the trial races. 

After the arrival of the Valkyrie, to 
carry out this plan and expectation of Mr. 
Herreshoff, a great deal that was in her was 
taken out, — water tank, waste tank, the trim- 
mings of the cabin, and a great many other 
things that will be described by him and by 
those who took them out,— and they were 
weighed and found to weigh about seven thou- 
sand pounds. Now, on consultation between 
Mr. Herreshoff and Mr. Iselin it was decided 
that as those objects of weight had been to a 
considerable extent in the upper parts of the 
Defender, six thousand pounds packed and 
placed as lead ballast down by the keel would 
be an equivalent and would take the place as 
nearly as possible of the seven thousand pounds 
that had been taken out. She was taken to 
New Rochelle, was stripped, as I have said, and 
two tons of lead, forty-two pigs, I think, were 



153 



put in her. It was found, before the weighing 
of what was taken out had been completed, 
that the two tons was not enough to equal 
what had been taken out, 7,000 pounds. 
Accordingly, when she was to come down to 
the Erie Basin before measurement, another 
ton was purchased to make the 6,000 pounds, 
and twenty-one pigs of lead were bought and 
ready to be put upon her when she came to the 
Erie Basin, and were placed upon her cabin 
floor, immediately over the place where they 
were to be finally stowed as ballast, and were 
on her cabin floor, at the time that her measure- 
ment took place. 

ISTow, it is perfectly apparent, to me, at 
least — I do not know what view the Committee 
may take of it — that upon the evidence that 
has been furnished by Lord Dunraven, practi- 
cally the whole matter rests by his observa- 
tion by eyesight, aided, as it is by Mr. Glen- 
nie's much less definite observations by his 
own eyesight, upon which he hardly feels 
that reliance can be placed. I think we 
shall show you by satisfactory evidence cov- 
ering the period from the time this yacht 
left New Rochelle until the Sunday when she 
was re-measured and found to be exactly as 
she had been when measured the first time on 
Friday, that this is a mere delusion or illu- 
sion on the part of Lord Dunraven and his 
friends, originating possibly from these affi- 
davits of the seamen that they saw or heard 
something going on between the Hattie 
Palmer and the Defender on the night of 
the 6th of September, until well into the morn- 
ing. There was something going on there. 
There is no doubt about that. It was the prep- 
aration, among other things, of this twenty- 
one pigs of lead, which, in order to be prop- 
erly stowed with the two tons that were there 



154 



before, had to be cut. For the purpose of 
cutting them they were carried from the De- 
fender's cabin floor over to the deck of the 
Hattie Palmer, and were there cut and were 
carried back, and were properly stowed below, 
where they were intended to be, and where 
they finally were when she sailed on her race. 
I understand that the only object of this en- 
quiry, as announced by the Chairman of the 
Committee, is to determine whether she did 
sail on the race more deeply immersed or with 
a longer load water line than she had when 
measured. We shall prove incontestably, if 
any human evidence can be relied on, that 
there is no foundation whatever for the charge. 
We are fortunately able to furnish the closest 
observation and watch upon her, and what 
went on her during the whole period during 
these episodes of the scheme of fraud. 

I shall put Mr. Herreshoff on the stand and 
shall put Mr. Iselin on the stand at the outset ; 
and shall afterwards, by such a preponderance 
of proof, establish this negative, if you please 
to call it so, to disprove this charge that has 
been made, that I think even Lord Dunraven 
himself will have to withdraw it. We will call 
Mr. Herreshoff first. 

Nathaniel G. Herkeshoff, called as a witness 
on behalf of Mr. Iselin, testified as follows : 

Examined by Mr. Choaie : 

Q. You are the designer, or one of the design- 
ers, and builder of the Defender? A. Yes. 

Q. When was she first begun? A. The latter 
part of last February. 

Q. When was she completed? A. Completed in 
July. 

Q. She was designed and built by you with a 
view of sailing and winning the America's cup 



155 



race under the provisions of the deed, was she not? 
A. Yes. 

Q. Will yon please to state to the Committee 
what your general plan was by which she was to 
be adapted, within the ninety feet limited by the 
deed, to the object yon had in view? A. My 
design was about 89 feet of water line, to come 
one foot within the limit. There should be some 
leeway in case we should want to ballast her, and 
the construction was carefully studied to get it as 
light as possible, and carry as large an amount of 
ballast as she could. I figured very carefully to 
get the whole amount of ballast in one casting in 
the keel. 

Q. So that if you hit it exactly she would have 
to carry no loose ballast? A. Yes. This we were 
very fortunate in, the casting coming out exactly as 
we intended, very closely indeed ; and the vessel, 
when constructed, came very nearly to her in- 
tended water line. In the first race she was per- 
haps a quarter of an inch higher out of the water 
than designed. In that condition she appeared to 
have plenty of stability. In fact, more than seemed 
to be necessary for the purpose of racing in our 
waters here, and it was soon decided to increase 
her sails. There was no change in the ballast of 
the boat from the time she first floated, in any way, 
until her cabin was taken out, just previous to her 
Cup races. 

Q. I will come to that more particularly. You 
know her exact displacement in the water, and 
you know exactly how much each inch of immer- 
sion would lengthen her load water line, do you 
not? You have calculated all that? A. Yes. 

Q. Were you present when she was measured on 
Friday, the 6th of September? A. Yes. 

Q. And the measurement then proved her load 
water line to be 88.45? A. Yes. 

Q. Now, will you state to the Committee how 
much her load water line would have been length- 



156 



ened beyond that by an immersion of fonr inches 
deeper? A. The angle of the stem and stern post 
is such that it would be lengthened almost exactly 
eight inches with each inch of immersion. 

Q. That would be thirty-two inches? A. Thirty- 
two inches for four inches. 

Q. Carrying her from 88-J to 91 feet and a frac- 
tion? A. Ninety-one and a fraction ; yes. 

Q. Which would have made her more than a 
foot longer than the outside limits permitted by 
the deed? A. Exactly. 

Q. That is mathematical, is it not, as you stated? 
A. As nearly as a calculation can be arrived at. 

Q. Can you also tell the Committee how much 
additional weight would have had to be placed in 
her to immerse her four inches deeper in the water? 
A. I have a memorandum here. 

Q. That is capable of exact ascertainment, is it 
not? A. Yes. (Looking at memorandum.) This 
calculation I made recently. Four inches would 
require 28,541 pounds. 

Q. That is fourteen short tons? A. Fourteen 
short tons. A little over. Equal to 12 and ^ 
long tons. 

Q. Yes; but fourteen tons of two thousand 
pounds? A. Yes. 

Q. Did you accompany her on the trial races or any 
of them? A. Yes; all of the trial races. 

Q. Did she have any loose ballast on board? A. 
None whatever. 

Q. And she had none when she came into the 
Erie Basin after the last of her trial races? A. 
No. 

Q. That was the 31st day of August? A. Yes. 

Q. At that time had the Valkyrie arrived? 
A. Yes ; she had arrived. 

Q. Had you seen her, or had you learned from 
information how she was stripped inside? A. I 
learned from information. 



157 



Q. What did you learn about that? A. That 
she had no cabin in her ; she was quite bare inside. 

Q. Down to that time of the 31st of August, how 
was the Defender equipped inside? What 
tanks had she and what removable objects? A. She 
was fully equipped to carry a crew, the whole com- 
plement ; about forty, I think. 

Q. What water tanks and waste tanks? A. Quite 
a large water tank and waste tank and ice box, — ice 
chest — and necessary pumps. 

Q. And the trimming of the cabin, and partitions 
for passengers? A. Yes. Everything was light 
for the purpose of a racing yacht, but it was very 
complete. 

Q. Did you have a consultation with Mr. Iselin, 
or with any of her owners as to what had better be 
done with her to match her with the Valkyrie? A. 
Yes. 

Q. Will you state what the result was? What 
passed between you, and what was concluded? A. 
I do not remember the exact words, but the result 
was that we decided to take the cabin out and put 
her in a condition equivalent to that of the Val- 
kyrie. 

Q. You did not then know how much weight 
would be so taken out of her, did you? A. No. I 
made an estimate that there would be taken out 
about three tons. 

Q. About six thousand pounds? A. And Mr. 
Iselin had two tons of lead sent to New Rochelle to 
put in the place of it. 

Q. That was done at New Rochelle? A. Yes. 

Q. Were you up there? A. Yes. 

Q. Did you see it done, or see her after it was 
done? A. Yes. I was there while it was being 
done. It was done on Wednesday and Thursday. 

Q. Wednesday and Thursday prior to the 6th 
and 7th? A. Yes. 

Q. Wednesday and Thursday would be the 4th 
and 5th of September? A. Yes. 



158 



Q. Did yon see the material that was taken ont 
of her, weighed? A. I did not. 

Q. Was it reported to you? A. It was reported. 

Q. How mnch? fA. Seven thousand pounds or a 
little over. I think there was a small fraction over 
seven thousand pounds, as I remember. 

Q. Did Mr. Iselin take your judgment as to 
what should be substituted to equalize that weight 
taken out? If so, please state to the Committee, 
if it was not the same number of pounds, what 
made the difference? A. Yes; I think we decided 
to put back a smaller amount than we took out; 
about a thousand pounds. 

Q. Six thousand pounds instead of seven? A. 
Yes. 

Q. Why? A. Because it would be packed down 
low, to give her much more stability than the 
weights that were taken out. 

Mr. Choate : I do not understand that. 
Mr. Herreshoff : To keep the same stability 
as nearly as possible and get a lighter displace- 
ment. 
Mr. JRives : G-et the weight lower down. 

Q. Lead packed closely at the keel would be 
equivalent to this larger quantity distributed 
over the various upper parts of the vessel? A. 
Yes. 

Q. Did you so advise Mr. Iselin? A. Yes; we 
consulted together and decided upon that. 

Q. And was the lead ballast brought up to New 
Rochelle? A. Yes. 

Q. How much? A. Two tons. 

Q. There are about twenty-one pigs to the ton, 
are there not? A. Generally; yes. 

Q. They weigh about 100 pounds? A. Gener- 
ally; yes. 

Q. Do you know of that being placed on board 
there? A. Two tons were placed on board on 
Thursday. 



159 



Q. And that is all that came to New Rochelle? 
A. Yes. 

Q. Now tell what afterwards happened, so far 
as yon know, down to the time of the measure- 
ment on Friday? A. So far as I know, I went to 
Erie Basin by train from New Rochelle to get the 
necessary measurements of the Valkyrie. If I had 
gone on the Defender it would have been a little 
late. It was intended to measure the Valkyrie 
first, and I think that was going on at the time the 
Defender arrived there. After the Valkyrie's 
load line was measured, we decided to measure 
the Defender's load line. 

Q. You arrived at the Erie Basin? A. I arrived 
at the Erie Basin by land ; by train. 

Q. Before the measurement of the Defender had 
taken place, after that of the Valkyrie had taken 
place? A. No; before either of them had been 
measured. 

Q. Do you know of some lead being brought on 
board the Defender there? A. Yes. In the first 
place, after getting through with the measure- 
ment of the Valkyrie's water line, I personally 
made a preliminary measurement of the Defender's 
water line to see about where she was setting, for 
verification of the amount that they should put 
in, and found she was light, and decided to put 
in the full ton that had been sent forward. 

Q. Was that put on board of her in your pres- 
ence? A. Yes. 

Q. What was the amount of it? A. One ton. 

Q. And no more? A. That is all. 

By Mr. Rives : 

Q. This preliminary measurement that you made 
was at the Erie Basin, was it? A. Yes. 

Q. After she got there and while she was along- 
side of the wharf? A. It was for my own satisfac- 
tion, to know how she was setting. I wanted to 



160 



get the ballast in before the final measurement took 
place. 

Q. I understand that this ton of lead was added 
after you had made this preliminary measurement? 
A. Yes: just before the final measurement. 

By Mr. Choate : 

Q. Where was this ton placed on the De- 
fender? A. It was placed very near amidships 
on the cabin floor, directly over where we intended 
stowing it. 

Q. You were present, were you not, when the 
measurement took place? A. Yes. I witnessed 
the measurement of both yachts on behalf of Mr. 
Iselin. 

Q. From that time will you state how much you 
were on the Defender until she was re-measured 
on the Sunday? A. From the time we got through 
the measurement on Friday, I was not on board of 
her again until Saturday morning about eight 
o'clock. 

Q. Saturday morning about eight o'clock, down 
at the Horseshoe, I suppose, inside the Hook? A. 
Yes. 

Q. How did you get on board of her then? A. 
I went on board from a steam yacht. 

Q. With Mr. Iselin? A. Yes. 

Q. Were you then on her from that time until 
the race of that day was completed? A. Yes; 
until they anchored at Bay Ridge. 

Q. And then you left her? A. Yes. 

Q. And were again present at the re-measure- 
ment on Sunday? A. Yes. 

Q. What time did you leave her on the Friday? 
How soon after the measurement? A. It was 
directly after the measurement. 1 should judge 
about half-past two, or in that neighborhood, 
possibly a little later. 

Q. The re-measurement on Sunday, it is agreed, 



161 

corresponded as exactly as two measurements could 
to that on Friday? A. Yes. 

Q. Now, have you made drawings, or have draw- 
ings been made under your direction, of the water 
line as ascertained on Sunday? A. Not under my 
direction, no. Those are Mr. Iselin's. 

Q. These are not yours? A. No. 

Q. On the morning of the 7th, the morning of 
the race, what time was it when you got on board 
the Defender ? A. I think it was about eight. 
I am not sure. 

Q. What did you do from then until the time the 
race began? A. There was very little to do, any 
more than watching the setting of the sails, and 
making general preparations for the start. One 
thing that we did do ; very soon, I think, or almost 
directly after I went aboard with Mr. Iselin, we went 
below with Captain Half. He wanted us to see the 
position that the lead had been stowed in. 

Q. You mean this extra ton? A. The extra ton. 

Q. Will you tell the Committee in your own way 
just what was done and what you saw, and how you 
were enabled to see it? A. The floor was taken 
up, and I merely looked down from above at the 
position it was stowed in. 

Q. What did you see? A. I saw the lead stowed 
away on top of the keel. 

Q. And that the pigs had been cut? A. The 
pigs had been cut. 

Q. Each in two? A. Yes. 

Q. Could you see whether there were three tons 
there or seventeen tons? A. Yes, I think so. 

Q. You are sufficiently familiar with that mat- 
ter to tell whether, as you observed it, there was 
anything more than the two tons that had been 
put on at New Kochelle and the other ton that 
had been put on at the Erie Basin? A. Yes; I 
think I could tell. 

Q. That was all there was? A. Yes. 

Q. You went for the purpose of seeing, and you 



162 



did examine and satisfy yourself before the race 
began? A. Yes. 

Q. How long was that before the race? A. 
That was in the morning, between eight and nine 
o'clock. 

Q. That was before Lord Dunraven put his rep- 
resentative on board? A. Yes. 

Q. You inspected that job pretty thoroughly, 
did you not, that day? A. Oh, yes, I generally 
inspected it. 

Q. Was there anything else on board of her to 
replace what had been taken out at .New Rochelle, 
excepting these three tons of lead? A. Wo. 

Q. Were there any water tanks, or waste tanks, 
or anything that would weigh? A. No. 

Q. If there was any water, I suppose, to drink, 
you can tell what there was of that? A. There 
was a small amount on board, enough for the use 
of that day. 

Q. You remember that there was one can of 
water brought aboard — a milk can? A. I do not 
remember particularly about that. I know they 
had water on board. 

Q. You sailed the whole of the race of that day, 
and at no time did she have anything more on 
board than you have stated ? A. No. No heavier 
in the water than she had sailed before. 

Q. Do you know anything of an examination to 
see if there was any water in her shoe, or did you 
not take part in that? A. I do not remember par- 
ticularly that morning, but we generally did look 
at that before the races. As a rule we always do. 

Q. Was there any possibility of any water bal- 
last or any other ballast being used on her that 
day, except these three tons of lead? A. No, cer- 
tainly not. 

Q. Could you tell — I suppose you are something 
of an expert — if there had been ten or fourteen 
tons of extra weight put into her? Would you 



163 



have recognized it as she sailed? A. Yes, I think 
I would. 

Q. How would it have affected her so that you 
could tell that there was such an extra weight 
there? A. There would be quite a difference to 
her motion in a seaway. 

Q. One that you could recognize? A. Yes. 

Q. There was something peculiar in the boom 

and spars of this Defender, was there not? The 

use of aluminum? A. We used a steel boom and 

steel gaff, finally, in the place of wood. 

Q. When were they put in her — the steel boom? 
A. That was first tried on the 31st day of August, 
just before going to the dry dock. 

Q. After she came in there on the 31st of August? 
A. No ; we had been out trying her the night before 
—the night of the 30th. 

Q. You were present at the re-measurement ? A. 
Yes. 

Q. And you know that both measurements were 
properly conducted? A. Yes. 

Q. And that they corresponded exactly? A. 
Yes ; perfectly satisfactory. 

Q. When you came on board at eight o'clock on 
Saturday morning, the 7th, what did you observe 
as to how she lay in the water? Did you think she 
was a different vessel from what you had seen her 
in the Erie Basin? A. No, I did not notice any- 
thing different. 

Q. Did you see any difference in her trim? A. 
I did not notice it. 

Q. Her immersion, or the load water length? A. 
Of course when all the crew were on board, with all 
their cots, that put her down somewhat in the 
water. 

Q. The weight of the cots? What difference 
does that make? The crew were on her when she 
was measured, were they not? A. Oh, yes. 

Q. Was there any appreciable weight or differ- 



164 



ence occasioned by those cots ? A. JSTo the posi- 
tion in the forecastle. That is further forward. 
There would be very little difference in the trim. 

Q. How was the water there that morning? 
Mr. Whitney: Where? 
Mr. Choate: Down at the Horse Shoe, when 
he boarded her? 
A. As far as the wind was concerned, the wind 
was light. It made a very little ripple, but as I re- 
member, there was quite a swell, and the yachts 
were heaving a good deal by the steamers going by ; 
the Long Branch steamers. 

Q. Can you tell whether there was motion both 
ways, pitching and rolling? A. Yes; I remem- 
ber that particularly because the Hattie Palmer 
was laying alongside of her when I first went 
aboard, and it occasionally took a number of men 
to keep her clear. 

Q. Had you observed the weather the night 
before? A. Yes. 

Q. What was it? A. The wind was fresh, east, 
and had the appearance of being a strong breeze 
the next day. We expected a stormy day. 

Q. What, in your judgment, would have been 
the effect upon the Defender, as to her chances 
of winning the race, of putting ten to fourteen 
tons of ballast on her more than you had advised? 
Mr. Herreshoff : Do you mean on that day 
— that Saturday? 
Mr. Choate : Yes. 
A. I think the chance would have been very poor 
indeed. 

Q. A very poor one indeed? A. Yes. 

Q. How would it have affected her sailing quali- 
ties? A. I think she would have been slower with 
that weight on board in that light breeze. 

Q. In your judgment, could you have told a dif- 
ference of a foot in her load water line, or three 
or four inches even of immersion, as compared 
with the time of her measurement on Friday, as 



165 



the water was on Saturday morning, when you 
boarded her? 

Mr. Herreslioff : Do you mean from along- 
side? 

Mr. Clioate : Yes, as you came up along- 
side, and as you went on board of her. 
A. Yes ; I think I could tell the difference, 
although in a sea it would be very uncertain. 

Q. You could not have formed a reliable judg- 
ment? A. No. 

Mr. AsJcwith : The comment I make upon 
this gentleman's evidence is that he came 
down in the morning and took a cursory look 
into the hold. As I say, we are not here 
prosecuting. 

Mr. Clioate : It was not very cursory as he 
describes it. Still, you do not wish to ask 
him any questions? 

Mr. AsJcwith : We are not proving any 
case now. We say it cannot be proven. I do 
not see what question to ask. 

By Captain MaJian : 

Q. What was this hole in the side that we hear 
so much of? A. It was the delivery to the bilge 
pump. 

Q. With your knowledge of her frame do you 
know where that is — whether it was above water? 
A. No. Only from this drawing, which was very 
accurately made. I know it was intended to be 
just about at the water line. 

Q. When she was in her sailing trim? A. Yes. 
That was the object, to always put those pijjes 
near the water line, so that they can be got at 
to clean the vessel a little bit, in case of accidents 
or a little leak. It is better to have them near the 
water line than down below. Of course, if they 
are high up above the water line they would be 
unsightly. 



166 

By Mr. Whitney : 

Q. What time did you go to Bay Bldge that 
night after the first race? A. I should judge it 
was between eight and nine o'clock — nearer nine 
than eight. 

Q. Were you towed up the Bay? A. Yes. 

Q. It was dark, I suppose, when you arrived? 
A. Oh, yes, it was dark. It turned dark when we 
were just outside of Sandy Hook. 

By Mr. AsTcwith : 

Q. Do I understand that the cots were in, on 
board? A. I do not remember whether they were 
on board then or not. The Hattie Palmer was 
alongside, and the men were at their breakfast. It 
was their duty to take them out, one of the first 
things, in the morning. 

Q. Were the things continually moved backwards 
and forwards? A. They are taken out. 

Q. Do metal vessels leak? A. Yes. The De- 
fender always leaked a little ; there was a small 
leak. 

Q. Does the vessel sink an even amount as the 

weight progresses? Suppose you put iu so many 

hundred weight of lead, and you sink her one inch, 

would it require as many hundred the second inch, 

or would there be a less quantity of lead required? 

A. More — in proportion, to increase the water line. 

Tlie Chairman : I suppose you can hardly 

get very far to-night, before six o'clock, with 

another witness. 

Mr. Choate ; No, I am ready to put Mr. 
Iselin on the stand, and then the other wit- 
nesses will all be here to-morrow morning. If 
the examination is to take the course indicated 
by Mr. Askwith, I think we shall have no dif- 
ficulty in putting in all our testimony to-mor- 
row. That is, if he does not feel that he is 
here with any duty of cross-examination. 



167 

The Chairman : We will take an adjourn- 
ment until ten o'clock to-morrow morning. 

At 5:50 p.m., adjoarned to 10 o'clock a.m., 
Saturday, December 28th, 1895. 



168 



New Yoke, December 28th, 1895. 
10 o'clock A.M. 

The Chairman : The Committee desire to 
make a single suggestion to Lord Dunraven and 
his counsel. We understood Mr. Askwith yes- 
terday that he should decline to cross-examine 
witnesses that were summoned on the part of 
Mr. Iselin. Of course, the conduct of the case 
will be entirely for counsel to consider ; but it 
would be gratifying to the Committee, if coun- 
sel would put to witnesses that may be called, 
such questions, in the nature of cross-examina- 
tion, as may occur to them. With the best 
witnesses in the world, cross-examination is 
always the surest test of accuracy, if not of 
truth, and it has occurred to us that possibly 
if the record was to show that Lord Dunraven 
and his counsel had declined to cross-examine 
witnesses, it might be, perhaps, a subject of 
comment. 9 

We make this suggestion only as a sugges- 
tion, and counsel will consider it for what it 
may seem to be worth. 

Mr. Askwith : Will you allow me to speak 
to Lord Dunraven a moment? 

The Chairman : Certainly. 

Mr. Askwith : (After consultation with Lord 
Dunraven.) As was stated yesterday, Lord 
Dunraven understood, in coming here, that he 
was coming as a witness and producing such 
evidence as he was enabled to, with regard to 
the facts within his own and his witnesses' 
knowledge. And therefore, as I stated, he was 
not in a position of prosecuting, as it were, in 
the matter. But I have consulted with him 
about the suggestion that has been made by 
the Committee, and our view is that, for the 



169 



assistance of the Committee, so far as we are 
able to do so, by questions we can put to these 
witnesses, we should be willing, for the assist- 
ance as I say of the Committee, with the 
object of assisting the inquiry as far as possi- 
ble, to put those questions ; but, as we have 
come unprepared for that line of the case, we 
would rather ask that, with regard to Mr. 
Herreshoff, and possibly Mr. Iselin, whether 
we should have an opportunity of considering 
the type of questions we should address to 
them. 

The Chairman : There will be no objection 
to that. The Committee also desire me to say 
that if Lord Dunraven, or his counsel, will in- 
dicate to the Committee any witnesses they 
may desire to have sent for, we will do all in 
our power to have them here, as you are 
here from abroad. And perhaps it should 
have been more distinctly stated in the out- 
set that the Committee will not undertake 
to examine witnesses at all, to put any ques- 
tions, except such as occur to the individ- 
ual members for the better understanding of 
the testimony. They won't undertake the 
duty of examining witnesses at all on their 
own account, but will leave it to the parties on 
the one side or the other to produce such proof 
as they please. 

Mr. Askwith : I was going to make, in the 
course of the morning, reference to the point 
which the Chairman has just this moment re- 
ferred to ; particularly with regard to wit- 
nesses who are mentioned in the pamphlet of 
Lord Dunraven at page 8. There has been a 
great deal of feeling here on the subject, 
which has been no doubt considerably height- 
ened by the remarks that have been made 
in the papers and elsewhere, as to this 
inquiry involving a question of the nation's 



170 



patriotism, and matters of that kind, which 
seem to ns to be entirely alien to it, and 
which we shall put aside as far as possible 
from it; and Lord Dunraven has felt very 
strongly that it is not right for him, in the 
position under which he has come forward and 
is giving his own testimony, to bring forward 
representatives of our American crew, as it is 
put there, or other persons, who really would 
only endorse the statements that he has made 
himself, but whose means of livelihood, or 
whose position in this city might be most un- 
favorably affected by appearing to give evi- 
dence, as it would be taken to be, upon his 
behalf. And so we felt that we must leave 
matters of that kind purely in the hands of 
the Committee as to whether or not they 
desired, for their own information, either pub- 
licly or privately, to ask such persons to 
appear. A similar argument really applies to 
a gentleman whose name was mentioned yes- 
terday two or three times — it is, of course, 
rather a personal matter to him as to whether 
he would endorse Lord Dunraven' s denial as 
to having received certain information from 
him — and that a gentleman, who occupies 
almost an official position in this city. 

The Chairman : If you will furnish the Com- 
mittee with the names of any witnesses that 
you would like to have present, if they shall 
not turn out to be called by Mr. Choate, the 
Committee will do what they can to obtain their 
attendance. Of course it is understood that we 
have no judicial power; that we cannot com- 
pel the attendance, as I understand, under the 
laws of this State, but we can, perhaps, ob- 
tain the attendance, although we might not be 
able to compel it. 

Mr. Askwith : We can only say that we 
have no objection to these people coming, and 



171 



that they would, as far as we are informed, 
endorse the statements that have been already 
gi^en npon affidavit, and which have been 
stated by Lord Dunraven and by Mr. Grlennie. 
We could give their names and the Committee 
could find out whether they would be willing 
to come. 

The Chairman : If in the course of the morn- 
ing you will give us the names, Mr. Ask with, 
we will take it into consideration. 

Mr. AsTcwith : There is another small ques- 
tion with regard to the affidavits I put in 
yesterday. I rather understood that Mr. 
Choate made the remark, the affidavits should 
be taken subject to the fact of his not being 
able to cross-examine, and I may point out, if 
the statements are desired to be strenuously 
contested, that it would be easy to have cross- 
examination taken in the usual manner, ques- 
tions and counter-questions, upon a commis- 
sion. 

Mr. Choate : We should not consider that of 
any value, in view of there being no sanction 
upon it, as in an ordinary examination by com- 
mission. 

The Chairman : The Committee decided to 
receive the affidavits as evidence, and consider 
them, notwithstanding they were ex parte. Of 
course they are open, as all evidence is, to any 
comment that is legitimate. Whether it has 
any effect or not cannot be stated beforehand. 

Mr. AsTcwith : Lord Dunraven proposes to 
return, in consequence of very important en- 
gagements, to-day to England. Owing to the 
mishap that occurred at the mouth of the 
Mersey, by the collision of the Germanic, 
his intended departure was delayed for some 
time, both to his own inconvenience, and pos- 
sibly, I am afraid, to the inconvenience of the 
Committee; and therefore he is unable to 



172 



remain for as long a time as might otherwise 
have been the case, and therefore I should ask 
that any further questions that may be desired 
to be put to him should be put to him in the 
course of the morning. 

The Chairman : I presume that would be 
agreeable to you, Mr. Choate? 

Mr. Choate: Certainly; I have no further 
questions. 

The Chairman: If you have any further 
questions to put to Lord Dunraven we will 
give you the opportunity this morning. 

Mr. Askwith : There are one or two small 
points that I may desire to ask him ; but also 
I would like to look through the evidence 
which we have got, up to luncheon time, and 
if possible we should like the rest of his evi- 
dence, in order to correct any mistakes that 
may occur to him. 

The Chairman : I presume the report of the 
evidence will be here. 

Mr. Whitney : What time does Lord Dun- 
raven sail? 

Mr. Hamilton : The steamer leaves at 2 
o'clock. 

The Chairman : Undoubtedly the evidence 
will be here by that time. 

Mr. Choate : In view of Lord Dunraven' s 
departure, I shall ask to examine Mr. Fish. I 
think it only fair to him that I should do 
so before he himself is recalled, because there 
is a serious difference between their recollec- 
tions. 

The Chairman : Do you call him now, Mr. 
Choate? 

Mr. Choate : I will ask Mr. Herreshoff a 
question or two, to complete with him, and 
then call Mr. Fish. 



173 



Nathaniel G-. Heeeeshoff, recalled and further 
Examined by Mr. Choate : 

Q. Yon spoke yesterday of a leak in the De- 
fender and left it very indefinite. Will you tell the 
Committee what that amounted to? A. It was only 
a slight leak she always had ; enough to occasion 
pumping once a day. It was done in the morning. 
I don't know the exact amount ; probably 20 or 30 
gallons. 

Q. Was that the most you ever knew? A. That 
was a constant leak, and then when she was under 
sail she leaked a little more. The water gained 
while she was under sail in a fresh breeze. At any 
rate it was of no particular consequence. 

Q. Take a boat like the Defender, could you 
or do you think any one, looking at her on broad- 
side could tell whether she had a slight list or not? 
A. No ; I could not. 

Q. And you are very familiar with such craft as 
she is? A. Yes. 

Q. To ascertain whether she had a slight list on 
or not, what would you do? A. The best place for 
observation would be from the bow or stern, or if 
you wanted to know exactly, by measurements of 
the height of the free board. 

Q. You mean observation on the bow or stern 
outside, or from inside the vessel? A. And look- 
ing at her from outside either on deck, or better, 
from a small boat. 

Q. Are you able to say from your knowledge of 
the construction of the boat, how much a list of 
one degree would change the position of that water 
pipe in relation to the water line? A. Well, a dif- 
ference of one degree would — heeling her one 
degree would immerse her side amidship something 
over two inches. 

Q. How much weight would it take to do that 
on the side of the vessel, if you can tell or give any 
idea about it? A. It would probably take a weight 
of about one-half a ton or three-quarters of a ton. 



174 



Q. And as to the depression or elevation of the 
bobstay bolt, what would be the effect of a com- 
paratively slight weight in the bow? A. She would 
probably move a little more, with the same weight 
over the water line at the bow or stern, than at the 
broadside. Of course not so much in angle as if it 
was put on the side of the vessel. 

Q. How would the wind on the rigging affect 
either her listing or the elevation or depression of 
her bow? A. A strong breeze would make a per- 
ceptible difference. 

Q. (By Mr. Whitney.) What was the size of 
this hole, Mr. Herreshoff, in general, where this 
ballast was that you looked down upon? A. In 
her bilge 

Q. Yes? A. (Continuing.) Is a scuttle, a floor 
that is movable, perhaps a foot and a half wide, 
maybe two feet, and you look right down into an 
open space for some 10 feet or so. Of course, to 
see anything you would have to get your eyes 
accustomed to the light — dim light — but by stand- 
ing there a moment you could see plainly the bilge 
construction and what ballast there was there; 
bilge water and anything. The space in the lower 
part is about wide enough for a man to get down. 

Q. What was the reason those pigs had to be 
cut? Q. Because this place was not large enough 
for them to lay down on that side. This place in 
the broadest part is about two-thirds the length of — 
perhaps a foot and a half. 

Q. You mean the width of it? A. Yes; and 
the distance fore and aft between the floor plates 
was about 1 9 inches, so that it was impossible to 
lay the pigs flat. 

Q. They had to go in between beams? A. Yes; 
in the floor space between the frames. 

Q. Go in cross- wise of the boat? A. Yes, sir; 
without cutting they could only be stood up on 
end. 



175 



Q. {By Mr. Hives.) Did you say whether the 
tanks had been taken out of the boat? A. Yes. 

Q. What was the capacity of those tanks, about? 
A. I think the water tank had a capacity of some 
six or seven hundred gallons. I don't remember 
exactly. 

Q. That was the only tank in the boat? A. There 
was a water tank and then there was a waste 
tank into which the water ran from basins and was 
pumped overboard. That was taken out. That was 
much smaller. And there was also a large wooden 
tank lined with zinc for the storage of ice. 

Q. That was taken out, too? A. Yes. 

Q. Do you know how much a gallon of sea- water 
weighs? A. I don't remember exactly the pro- 
portion; it is about eight and a half pounds, 
I think, roughly; 64 T 3 ¥ pounds to the cubic yard. 

Q. (By Mr. Whitney.) Is there any place beside 
this hole where ballast could have been secreted 
without being exposed to ordinary observation? 
A. No. 

Q. Except in the hold? A. The floor was all 
movable, so that any one might examine the bilge 
for the entire length. There is a middle section of 
the floor with movable scuttle for the whole 
length. 

Q. I don't suppose you could tell by your eye, 
or ordinary observation, could you, the exact 
amount of ballast that was in there — loose ballast? 
A. No; not the exact amount, but I could tell 
the difference between 2 or 3 tons and 10 very 
well. 

Q. How much nearer than that ; can you tell 
the difference between 3 tons and 6? A. Yes; 
I think I could tell the difference between 3 
and 4. 

Q. From your observation then, as you stated 
that morning, would you say there was not 4? 
A. Yes. 



176 



Q. What list would it give to the Defender 
if all of her crew were on one side? A. It would 
give her a list of about 3 inches. 

Q. How much do you think it would put her 
bow down if they were all forward? A. All on 
the fore deck, as far forward as they could stand, 
probably 3 inches or a little more ; between 3 and 
4 inches; possibly nearer 4. 

Q. Does it give her a list when her boom is 
thrown over? A. Oh, yes. decidedly. 

Q. When she is not sailing? A. Yes. 

Q. {By Mr. Choate.) What was the exact hour, 
as near as you can fix it, when you went on 
board the Defender, the morning of the race, 
the 7th? A. I think it was in the neighborhood 
of 8 o'clock, although I have not any means of 
knowing the exact hour. 

Q. Well, you observed her, did you not, as 
you approached her? A. Yes. 

Q. Did she appear to you to set any lower in 
the water than when she was measured the day 
before? A. No; I didn't notice any difference 
at all. 

Q. Would your intimacy with her enable you 
to see it if it were so? A. Yes; any amount, 
certainly. That is, if the water was smooth enough. 
I know at that time of the day many steamers are 
passing up and down, and besides there is always 
a little swell coming around the Hook, which makes 
the water a little rough. 

Q. Did you observe, or could you tell, whether 
she had any list on at that time? A. I did not 
observe any list and the wind was very light ; there 
wasn't wind enough to list her any amount. Pos- 
sibly a degree or something like that. 

Q. Where were you when Lord Dunraven came 
on board? A. I was on deck. 

Q. Did yon go to the port side to see him, or who 
was with him ? A. Yes ; I remember his coming 
alongside to put Mr. Henderson on board. 



177 



Q. I don't know whether you can recollect 
whether other persons did the same or not? A. 
No ; I don't remember the number that were stand- 
ing on deck on that side. 

Latham A. Fish, called and interrogated. 

By Mr. Choate : 

Q. Mr. Fish, you were a member of the Cup Com- 
mittee of the Club? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And it has been stated that you were put on 
board the Valkyrie to represent the Defender, or 
Mr. Iselin. In what capacity and under what 
direction did you go on the Valkyrie? A. I went 
by direction of the Committee to represent the 
New York Yacht Club on the Valkyrie. 

Q. Not to represent either Mr. Iselin or the 
owners of the Defender? A. No, sir. 

Q. What time did you go on board that morn- 
ing? A. I don't know exactly; I think between 
9 and 10. 

Q. Lord Dunraven has put it, as I remember, 
almost immediately after he returned from putting 
Mr. Henderson on the Defender. Do you know 
anything about that? A. Well, there was an 
interval of some minutes ; I don't know how long, 
no, sir. 

Q. Had he got back from putting Mr. Henderson 
on the Defender before you were put on the 
Valkyrie? A. Yes. 

Q. Now of course you — Did you introduce your- 
self, or were you already known to Lord Dun- 
raven? A. I had met Lord Dunraven before. 

Q. How soon after boarding the Valkyrie was 
there a conversation between you and Lord Dun- 
raven, and how did it happen ; how did it come 
about? A. Within a very few minutes Lord Dun- 
raven asked me to go below ; he said that he wanted 
to speak with me privately on a matter of impor- 
tance. 



178 



Q. Well, go on and state what it was. Yon 
went with him below, I suppose? A. We went 
below and sat down, and he told me that he 
had intended to write that morning officially to 
the Cup Committee on the subject, but, that as I 
was coming on board, he decided to state it to 
me and asked me to communicate it to the Com- 
mittee. He then went on to state that he believed 
the Defender was immersed three or four inches 
deeper than when she was measured. He said 
that he did not believe — I think he used the word — 
of course that the change had been effected — He 
did believe, of course, that the change had been 
effected without the knowledge of the Defender's 
owners. He then stated the facts, naming the 
bobstay and the water-closet pipes ; that went to 
prove this belief. He then gave the names of 
a number of people who had observed these 
changes. He said the water-closet pipe that was 
visible when she was measured, had disappeared 
entirely. He said that he would not say to the 
Committee what action they should take, but this 
must be corrected or he would not go on with the 
races. He added that what he would like was a 
re-measurement that day after the races. I gave 
as my opinion that it would be too dark to make 
a re-measurement that day. When he spoke of 
these physical facts that evidenced the deeper 
immersion, 1 asked him if the Defender was heeled 
any. I remember that. He thought she was not. 

Q. Have you stated the substance of the conver- 
sation? A. Yes, sir; I think I have. 

Q. Have you stated all that you can recollect on 
either side? A. Well, there was a repetition of 
some of these statements. I think Lord Dunraven 
said at least twice that he believed that change 
had been effected without the knowledge of the 
owners, and I think he repeated the statement that 
he did not want to say to the Committee what ac- 
tion they should take. 



179 



Q. Is that all that you can recollect of the con- 
versation ; is that it exactly as you can give it? A. 
I don't remember anything more. I might — I wrote 
this statement of it which I have in my pocket. 
I have not seen it. 

Q. No matter about that just yet. Did he say 
in that conversation that he requested, or insisted 
that the Committee should take charge of the 
Defender, or of the Defender and the Valkyrie, 
until the re-measurement should take place, or 
should put a representative on board, or anything 
to that effect? A. No, 'sir. 

Q. You are sure of that, are you? A. "Very 
positive. 

Q. Who were present beside yourself and Lord 
Dunraven at this interview? A. No one. 

Q. Did he ask or say that he wished the Com- 
mittee to put one of their members, or some reliable 
representative, on board of each yacht immediately 
after the race, and to have both vessels re-measured, 
if possible, that evening? A. No, sir. 

Q. He only said he wished both vessels, or the 
Defender, should be re-measured? A. He spoke 
of it as wanting a re -measurement that day. 

Q. Did he say that if that were impossible, then 
that the members of the Committee, or their rep- 
resentative, should stay on board in charge of the 
vessels until they were measured? A. No, sir. 

Q. Did he say anything about having the vessels 
marked after being re-measured? A. Not that I 
remember. 

Q. Well, then you went on your way and the 
race continued. Now was this subject again brought 
up between you and Lord Dunraven before you left 
the Valkyrie that day? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. About when? A. It was after we had turned 
the outer mark and were coming home. 

Q. Well, how long after that, or how long before 
you left the Valkyrie ? A. I should think 
within two hours of my leaving the Valkyrie. I 
don't know exactly. 



180 

Q. What happened? A. IsaidtoLordDunraven, 
I thought I had better write down his statement 
that I might be sure to convey it correctly to the 
Committee ; that I was not willing to rely entirely 
upon my memory. We went below again. 

Q. Alone or with some other person? A. He 
and I went together. Mr. Kersey was down below 
when we got there. There was some talk as to 
what it should be written upon. I was about — 
Mr. Kersey heard this, I think — this talk about a 
piece of paper — I was about taking an envelope 
from my pocket to write it on the back of that, 
and Mr. Kersey said he would get something, and 
he brought a pad. 

Q. Do you mean a pad with several sheets upon 
it, or only a sheet from a pad? A. He brought the 
pad, as I remember. 

Q. Did you write on the pad before you removed 
the piece of paper from the pad? A. Yes, sir; I 
did. 

Q. Is that the paper you wrote (showing)? A. 
Yes, sir ; that is it. 

Q. You may keep it for a moment. Is every- 
thing there in your handwriting? A. Yes, sir; 
every bit of it. 

Q. The words at the top, three words at the top, 
which appear there in darker pencil, or have a dif- 
ferent appearance, were written afterwards, were 
they, or before? A. They were after the body of 
that was written. 

Q. Now as you wrote, did you read, or did you 
communicate the contents of that paper to Lord 
Dunraven in any way? A. Every word of it. I 
read it to him as I wrote it. He was sitting close 
to my side. 

Q. You had no table there, of course? A. No, 
sir; written on my knee. 

Q. What were you sitting on; a bench? A. A 
kind of bench that ran around the side. 

Q. By saying that as you wrote it you read it 



181 



aloud to him do you mean that you wrote it all 
first and then read it, or wrote a part and read be- 
fore you wrote the rest? A. I read it to him as I 
wrote it. This statement embodied my recollection 
of his statement of the morning and I read it to him 
as I wrote it. 

Q. You do not quite answer my question 
whether you wrote this, the four lines — I believe 
there are four lines — first and then read it to him, 
or as you went along did you write and read? A. 
As I went along. 

Mr. AsTcwith : May we have the paper read 
out? 
Mr. Choate : I will have it in a moment. 

Q. What did Lord Dunraven say ; did he assent 
to it in any way or ask to have it changed? A. He 
said he wanted it made stronger because he believed 
this from his own observation, too. Then I wrote in 
these three words. I said to him, "That reads 
rather awkwardly, but it conveys your meaning. " 
Then these other names were written. 

Q. How did you get those other names, because 
in your narrative of the conversation you have not 
mentioned names? A. I stated in my narrative, I 
think, that he mentioned the names. 

Q. You did not mention what they were? A. 
~No, I did not mention them. 

Q. You have them there? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. But he gave them to you in the morning? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. Now will you read the contents of the paper 
without the three words written in afterwards on 
top? A. "Lord Dunraven believes from the ob- 
servation of those on Yalkyrie 3d and City of 
Bridgeport, that Defender sailed to-day's race 
immersed three " — then the figure three in brackets 
— "or four" — figure four in brackets — " inches 
deeper than when measured." Then follow " Bob- 
stay. Pipe. D. Captain of B. Pilot. Giennie. 
Ratsey. Kersey." 



182 



Q. D. is for Dunraven, I suppose, and Captain of 
B. for Bridgeport? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Now, read the three words at the top? A. 
" his own and." 

Q. Now read that first phrase with those three in ? 
A. " Lord Dunraven believes from his own and the 
observation of those on Valkyrie III. and City 
of Bridgeport." 

Q. Did he then say anything about wishing the 
Committee to put a member or representative on 
board immediately after the race, or if that was 
not jjossible, then that the members of the Com- 
mittee, or their representatives, should stay on board 
in charge of the vessels until they were re- measured? 
A. No, sir. 

Q. Or about re-marking? A. No, sir, I don't 
remember that at all. 

Q. Did that end the conversation or interview? 
I mean what you have stated completed it? A. 
No. I asked Lord Dunraven to put me aboard the 
Committee boat as soon as possible after the race, 
that his statement might be considered by the Com- 
mittee on its way up the Bay, and so save time. I 
may have asked Lord Dunraven to do that before 
we went below, and I may have done it after this, 
but it was my request. 

Q. Before he said anything about it? A. He 
never said anything about it to me. 

Q. {By the Chairman.) Mr. Fish, will you let 
me see that paper? A. Yes, sir (handing paper to 
the Chairman). 

Q. {By Mr. Choate.) State the subsequent 
custody of that paper? A. The Committee were 
called together within five or ten minutes of my 
arrival on board the Committee boat. We gathered 
aft, and this paper was passed around among them. 
I believe that they all saw it, and then it got into 
the custody of Commodore Smith, the Chairman. 

Q. And he has had it since? A. He has had it 



183 



all but a part — well, lie has had it all of the time 
— I know he didn't have it one day. 

Q. Well, it was brought to me and shown to me? 
A. Brought where? 

Q. Brought to me at one time to show to me? 
A. I think not; not the original. 

Q. A copy? A. A copy, yes. 

Q. What time was it out of his custody? A. It 
was out of his custody on the day of the Yale- 
Princeton foot ball game, November 23d. This 
paper had been apparently missing for two or three 
weeks ; the Commodore could not find it, and on 
that day I was going up on a steamer with a party 
of friends from Brooklyn, to land at 155th Street, 
to see the game. We landed at the foot of Rector 
Street to get some more people on board, mem- 
bers of the Exchange principally, and their friends, 
and after leaving there Mr. Chauncey, a member 
of the Stock Exchange, and a friend of Commodore 
Smith's and of mine, came to me and said he had 
a note for me from Commodore Smith — Jim Smith, 
I guess he said — and he said there is something 
important in it for you. I felt sure what it was 
and opened the envelope, but before I took it out, 
I said to Mr. Chauncey, " Dan, now I would like 
to see just how well I remember this." He took the 
paper and I repeated it to him, and then I held it 
while he made that copy that I gave to you, and 
then he took both papers. It was never really out 
of his possession, except as I held it in front of me 
for one minute, and I have never seen it at any 
other time since I gave it to Mr. Smith. 

Q. It was brought here by Mr. Smith yesterday? 
A. I believe so. 

Q. What was the name of the Cup Committee's 
boat? A. I don't know; it was one of the 
Luckenbacks. 

Q. About when and about where was she when 
you were put on board of her by the Valkyrie? 
A. We were within a quarter of a mile of the 



184 

finish line, I should think. We waited there 
until she got up her anchor and started up, and 
then hailed her, and she stopped and I was put on 
board and then went on up the Bay. 

Q. You say you gathered the Committee who 
were on board immediately together aft, and you 
told them what? A. I told them I had a very im- 
portant communication to make, and I made it. 

Q. What did you make ; what did you report to 
them? You gave them the paper? A. I gave 
them the paper. 

Q. Did you give them anything else in substance 
but that? A. Then in answer to the questions that 
they put I gave Lord Dunraven's other statements 
as I remembered them, as to his desiring the re- 
measurement that day, and his unwillingness to go 
on with the racing unless this thing was corrected. 

Q. And of course you did not say anything to 
the Committee of what you say you had not heard 
about his demanding that the Committee should 
take charge of one or either of the yachts? A. I 
did not. 

Q. In any way in substance or effect? A. In 
any way. 

Q. Being one of the Cup Committee you took 
part in their conference? A. I did. 

Q. What took place at the meeting of the Com- 
mittee that was held on board before you reached 
Bay Ridge, or wherever you landed? A. There 
was a good deal of surprise and a good deal of 
talk, and it finally settled into this 

Q. I don't care so much about the talk, as what 
action? A. The action that was taken was this: 
Lord Dunraven's suggestion that he would like a 
re-measurement that day was considered a call for 
a re-measurement, and a re-measurement was 
ordered at what the Committee believed was the 
earliest possible moment. 

Q. What time did your boat get up to Did 



185 



you go to New York or Brooklyn, or where? A. 
I don't know where I landed that day. It is the 
only day I don't remember, but I was with the 
others. I don't remember whether it was at the 
Battery or Bellevue. Really I can't recollect. 

Q. You got off at one place or the other? A. 
Yes. 

Q. What time was it; was it before dark or 
after? A. It was after dark. We were still in 

consultation on the stern of the tug when 

Well, it was dark before we got through with our 
consultation. 

Q. It has been testified here that before you 
were put on board the Committee's boat the 
Defender had already gone up to Bay Ridge, 
and the Valkyrie, after waiting a little while, 
followed on up to Bay Ridge, as I understand it. 
Did you know that the Valkyrie waited any 
time? A. I think she waited until she got a 
tug, that was all, and started right up. The 
Defender had gone on ahead. 

Q. And she took a tug after putting you on the 
Cup Committee boat? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. ISTow, from your recollection, would it have 
been possible to have had a re-measurement before 
it was dark that night? A. I know it would not. 

Q. I don't know that you know anything of the 
practicability of measuring in the dark. Have you 
known that to be done? A. I have never known 
it to be done. 

Q. Do you know that the Cup Committee ar- 
ranged for or ordered the external marking of the 
load water line after the re-measurement should 
have taken place? A. I know that the Committee 
appointed a sub-committee to arrange for the re- 
marking. Whether the sub- committee did it or 
not, I don't know. 

Q. Who were the sub-committee? A. Mr. Can- 
field, the Secretary and Mr. Rogers. I know they 



186 



were down there, because I went down there on 
business myself that same afternoon. 

Q. You don't know when that sub-committee 
was appointed? A. Well 

Q. Did you make any communication to Mr. 
Iselin? A. Mr. Choate, I beg pardon. I do know 
that I was present at the meeting of the Commit- 
tee when this sub-committee was appointed. 

Q. Wasn't it before the race? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. A sub-committee for what? A. To arrange 
the re-marking, the external mark. 

Q. Was there a record kept of the action of the 
Cup Committee — minutes? A. There is, yes. 

Q. How long before the race was this sub-com- 
mittee appointed? A. I don't know whether it 
was the evening before or that day. I think the 
evening before. 

Q. So that there was some action, as you think, 
for external marking by the Cup Committee before 
the race began? A. I know that there was a sub- 
committee appointed to arrange for that marking. 

Q. {By the Chairman.) Before the first race? A. 
Yes, sir; and they went down there on Friday 
afternoon. I know that, because Mr. Iselin had 
sent for me to come aboard the Defender, and 
I met these gentlemen on the Hamilton Ferry boat, 
and we went down there together. Whether they 
arranged it, I don't know. 

Q. {By Mr. Choate.) Do you personally know 
anything about the matter of the Valkyrie having 
been measured first, and in consequence of her 
supposed draft of water having left before the tide 
went down? A. I do not. 

Q. You did not answer my question. Did you 
tell Mr. Iselin anything about the request of Lord 
Dunraven? A. No, sir. 

Q. At any time? A. At no time. 

Q. You considered that your function was per- 
formed when you communicated to the Cup Com- 
mittee. A. Yes, sir. 



187 



The Chairman : Have you any questions, 
Mr. Askwith? 

Mr. AsJcwith : I should like to see a copy of 
this appointment of the sub-committee. 

Q. {By Mr. Whitney.) Do you identify this 
paper as the memorandum you made that day; at 
the time. A. Yes, sir. 

Q. {By Mr. Aslcwith.) What sort of a block was 
it that you used ; you said it came off a pad? A. 
I don't know as I can describe the pad. Just an 
ordinary pad, I suppose, perhaps three-eighths or 
half an inch thick, I should think. It may have 
been less. 

Q. This document you will note only puts down 
the fact? A. Yes. 

Q. There is nothing said in it as to the action of 
the Committee? A. Not a word. 

Q. Your memory goes to say that Lord Dunraven 
made the remark that it must be corrected, or he 
would discontinue racing? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Doesn't it strike you as rather a strong re- 
mark to make, if all that he asked for was a re- 
measurement? A. I have not any opinions to 
offer. I must confine myself strictly to the facts as 
I remember them. 

Q. You do not have any view on that? You have 
no memory at all of his having said that the mem- 
bers of the Committee, or their representatives, 
should stay on board and in charge of the vessels 
until they were measured? A. No. 

Q. Were members of the Committee usually 
present at measurement? A. I don't know. I was 
never present myself, so I could not tell. 

Q. Did you hear that members of the Committee 
were sent down to the measurement? A. Which 
measurement do you mean? 

Q. To any measurement ; the three measure- 
ments that actually took place? A. I know that 
some of the Committee was sent down to attend 
to the marking. 



188 

Q. The marking would follow upon the measure- 
ment? A. That I don't know. 

Q. Have you heard that at the first measurement 
there were members of the Committee present? A. 
I don't know. 

Q. Or at the second? A. I don't know. 

Q. Or at the third ? A. I do not know who was 
there. 

Q. Have you heard that there were members of 
the Committee there? A. I could not tell you. 

Q. You don't know? A. No. 

Q. You don't know, of course, whether members 
of the Committee, if there was a re-measurement 
going to take place, would go down? A. It hap- 
pened that I went down myself that Sunday morn- 
ing. I don't remember seeing any 

Q. Did you go down as a member of the Com- 
mittee? A. No, I went down out of curiosity. 

Q. On your private affairs? A. Yes, sir. I lived 
in Brooklyn, and on Sunday morning I left before 
the measurement was made. 

Q. Did you hear Lord Dunraven speaking of the 
conversation that he had with you to Mr. Glennie? 
A. No. 

Q. Or did you hear him mention it to any other 
members on board ? A. No. 

Q. You would rather lead me to believe that Mr. 
Kersey brought you the pad? A. I state that he 
did. 

Q. Was he present when you were writing? A. 
No. 

Q. Did he bring you the pad downstairs or down 
below, and then go up? A. He went into this 
little room aft that was curtained off, and brought 
the pad and went on deck immediately ; he under- 
stood we wanted to be alone. That was all. 

Q. You say that you and Lord Dunraven sat 
down below? A. Yes ; I state that. 

Q. And had some sort of an interview? A. It 
was not long ; very few minutes. 



189 



Q. It would not take long to write down these 
few words? A. No ; I wanted to get that straight. 

Q. This complaint seemed to yon rather an im- 
portant matter? A. Very. 

Q. You went at once to the Committee, as soon 
as you could, and gave the information? A. With- 
out a minute's unnecessary delay. 

Q. Did you form any opinion as to the course that 
they ought to take, as a member of the Committee ? 
A. I did. 

Q. Did it appear to you that re-measurement the 
next day satisfied the conditions? A. Entirely. 

Q. This is the fact, I presume: "As soon as 
Mr. Latham Fish, a member of the Committee, 
came on board Valkyrie, as Defender's repre- 
sentative, and before the race was started, I stated 
the whole case to him ; told him I thought that 
some mistake had been made." A. I don't remem- 
ber this being described as a mistake. 

Q. You don't remember that? A. Mo. 

Q. You don't remember whether it was so or not? 
A. I have stated it as I remember it. 

Q. "And that all the weight put into De- 
fender after measurement had not been taken out 
before the race." Do you remember his saying 
that? A. No. 

Q. Do you remember his making a statement 
about the weights that were in Defender ? 
You don't remember whether he did or not? A. 
I got a distinct impression at the time — what 
words of Lord Dunraven gave me that impression 
I do not know — but he believed that it was possibly 
by the use of water that this was done. I did not 
ask any questions except whether the Defender 
was heeled when he noticed this, and did not see the 
water-closet pipe. 

Q. Do you remember he said he was positively 
certain she was sailing at least a foot beyond her 
proper length? A. No. Three or four inches 



190 

deeper immersed is what I remembered, and what 
I wrote down. 

Q. Did he request you to take the earliest oppor- 
tunity of mentioning the matter to the Committee? 
A. No. I requested him to give me that oppor- 
tunity. 

Q. Didn't he mention the laying the matter be- 
fore the Committee first of all to you? A. When 
I went on board he told it to me for the purpose of 
laying it before the Committee, but at what time 
he did not say. The time was arranged. I asked 
for that. 

Q. If he made the remark that it must be cor- 
rected or he would not sail again, I presume that the 
earliest opportunity would bean important matter? 
A. He suggested a re-measurement that day after 
the race ; that was the earliest. 

Q. Did you ask him what suggestions he could 
make? A. I don't remember that. 

Q. Did Lord Danraven reply to the effect that he 
wished the Committee to put one of their members 
on board the yacht before re-measurement, and 
that the re-measurement was to take place that 
evening? A. No. 

Q. You are certain? I am very certain on that 
point indeed. I don't think a request of that kind 
could have escaped my attention at the time, or 
my memory afterwards. 

Q. You remember he suggested re-measurement 
that evening? A. Yes. 

A. Are you sure as a part of it that he did not 
suggest that a member of the Committee should go 
down to the boat for re-measurement? A. 1 could 
not be positive on that point. 

Q. And you also deny that he said anything 
about any one staying in charge of the boats ? A. 
Yes. 

Q. Was it your impression that Lord Dunraven 
implied fraud? A. My impression at the time was 
that Lord Dunraven firmly believed that the De- 



191 



fender was immersed three or four inches more, 
and very much regretted to be obliged to make this 
charge. That is the impression I got. 

Q. Did he appear to you to be reluctant to be 
obliged to make the charge? A. Yes. Very sorry. 

Q. Even after your being put on board of one of 
the Luckenback tugs, and being put on board the 
Committee boat, you saw the Valkyrie near the 
Committee boat? A. We steamed right on up 
the Bay. The Luckenback only stopped long 
enough for me to get on board. Then the dingey 
went back to the Valkyrie, and by the time 
she got back we were off up the Bay, and the 
Valkyrie followed. 

Q. You saw the Valkyrie in the neighbor- 
hood? A. I left her in the neighborhood. 

Q. She was near enough to have been signalled? 
A. Undoubtedly, we could have gone back to her. 

Q. She could have seen a signal? A. We could 
have made her see it. 

Q. You gave no signal? A. None at all. 

Q. Your memory seems to differ from Lord 
Dunraven's as to the taking charge of the boats. 
You said that Lord Dunraven made some remark 
to you that he believed that it might be water? A. 
I got that impression. I don't know what the re- 
mark was, and have never been able to recall, but I 
got that impression that he believed that it might 
have been done in that way. 

Q. You got that impression? A. I got that im- 
pression. 

Q. Did you impart that impression to the Com- 
mittee? A. I have since. I don't know that I 
did at the time* They can tell probably. 

Q. You don't remember whether you told them 
at the time? A. I do not. 

Q. Did it appear to you that re- measurement 
the next day would be a satisfactory means of 
satisfying the question w T hether water was in the 
vessel at the time of the race? A. Why, yes. 



192 

This appeared to be a very serious charge, but I 
thought the evidence on which the belief was based 
was very flimsy, and there was nothing in it. I 
regarded it as absurd, and the measurement the 
next day proved it, and that was the end of it. 

Q. You took no stock in it? A. Not a bit. 

Q. You considered that it was a very serious 
charge? A. A very serious charge. 

Q. But the view you took was that it was absurd 
and preposterous? A. That the evidence was 
flimsy, and that there was nothing in it whatever. 

Q. Lord Dun raven had taken the risk of making 
it to you? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. On the spot, at the time ; at the time when 
he stated that the immersion was occurring or ex- 
isted? A. Yes. 

Q. You were a representative of Mr. Iselin? A. 
No ; of the New York Yacht Club. 

Q. I don't know how the appointment is made 
for the representatives upon these different boats, 
but I understand the appointment is made by the 
managing owners of each boat, of a representative on 
the other boat? A. The appointment is made by 
the Committee, but the Committee authorized Mr. 
Iselin to select a representative, though the ap- 
pointment is made by the Committee. He suggests 
any number of names that he wishes. 

Q. You were selected by Mr. Iselin in that way? 
A. No. 

Q. Didn't you say that the Committee allowed 
Mr. Iselin to select a representative? A. Yes. 

Q. Did they suggest you to him, then? A. No. 

Q. Or did he pick you out? A. Neither. Mr. 
Iselin said that any member of the Cup Committee 
if they were at leisure would suit, and I was sum' 
moned. 

Q. He selected the Cup Committee generally and 
some one named you? A. Yes, sir; that is the 
idea. This is hearsay. I have so understood. 

Q. Lord Dunraven made this charge to you, 



193 

being a representative of either Mr. Iselin or this 
Club, or its Cup Committee? A. I was a repre- 
sentative of the Club, yes, sir. 

Q. And he said that the thing was going on at 
the time? A. When he made the first statement 
it was that she was, he believed, immersed three 
or four inches more than when she was measured 
the day before. 

Q. He told you so? A. Yes. 

Q. That she was deeper then? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You were going up to the start for the race? 
A. They were getting ready, the boat was still at 
anchor when I got aboard. 

Q. You had the same thing repeated to you, as 
you say, just towards the end of the race? A. I 
did not say that. I said that I wrote down the 
original statement of the morning at my own sug- 
gestion. 

Q. In his presence? A. In his presence, yes, 
and it was changed a little, because you will see 
that statement said "Sailed to-day's race," and 
that brings it up to the end of the race. 

Q. It was twice made to you, this statement, 
that day, you say? A. If you consider that making 
it again. 

Q. You say it was stated to you as you were 
going up to the start, and also that it was stated 
to you when this paper was corrected in Lord 
Dunraven's presence? A. I don't know that Lord 
Dunraven repeated the statement at all. I wrote 
it down. 

Q. You showed it to him again? A. He was 
alongside of me when I wrote it, and I read it all 
to him as I wrote it, and one correction was made 
in it at his suggestion. He knew everything that 
was there, but I do not think he repeated it at 
length himself in the afternoon. 

Q. He had made the complaint to you in the 
morning? A. Yes. 

Q. You showed him a piece of paper containing 



194 



the facts that he had stated, in the afternoon? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. That was twice on that day that this matter 
came up between you and him? A. Oh, yes, 
sir. 

Q. It was rather a serious matter to take no stock 
in? A. I took no stock in the evidence. The 
charge was serious. 

Q. The evidence being good or not the charge 
was made then? A. Yes. 

Q. A serious one for Lord Dunraven to make? 
A. I thought so. 

Q. Lord Dunraven took the risk? A. Yes. 

Q. Whether the evidence was flimsy or not could 
have been best proved then? A. Yes. 

Q. At the time? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. That an opportunity was asked for? A. I 
think what was asked for was an impossibility. 
That is my belief ; a re-measurement that day after 
the race. 

Q. Because it was a little dark ? A. Because it 
was not a little dark, but very dark. 

Q. If there was water, would there not be more 
chance of the matter being detected if a person was 
put aboard those boats, whether the boats were re- 
measured or not that evening ; and water, you say, 
had been suggested? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Wouldn't that be so? A. Now, state that 
again, please. 

Q. If there was water, would there not be a bet- 
ter chance of detectingut if a person was put upon 
those boats that evening, in charge? A. What do 
you mean by that evening? Any time after the 
race? 

Q. Directly after the race? A. That was impos- 
sible. 

Q. Valkyrie was close to the Committee 
boat? A. Yes, but the Defender was not. 

Q. There were tugs about? A. Yes, lots of 
them ; we had one under us. 



195 



Q. The Defender had gone to Bay Ridge? 
A. Gone up to Bay Ridge. 

Q. How long after she started was this? A. She 
had been gone at least half an hour. 

Q. A tug could easily have been sent down? A. 
Oh, yes ; our own tug could have gone there ; she 
was going there. 

Q. That was not done? A. No. 

Q. In fact, no steps were taken that evening? 
A. Not to put watchers on board; no. 

Q. When was this sub -committee appointed ; that 
evening or next morning? A. No; this sub-com- 
mittee was appointed on Thursday evening, and 
went down on Friday before the first race. 

Q. When was the intimation sent to the boats 
that they would be re-measured on Sunday? A. I 
don't know ; I didn't carry it. I don't know who 
took it. 

Q. Did the Committee hold any other sub-com- 
mittee meeting on the evening of this Saturday? 
A. No. 

Q. On Sunday morning? A. No. 

Q. Was any sub-committee meeting held on this 
matter of the charge? A. I don't know of any 
other sub-committee having been appointed at all. 

Q. You did not give Lord Dunravenmuch chance 
of substantiating what he had spoken about? A. 
I think we did everything in our power. We 
never thought of putting watchers aboard. It is a 
novel proceeding ; I never thought of it. 

Q. It did not occur to you? A. Not a word 
until I read it in the papers. 

Q. You say it was not suggested to you? A. 
Not at all. 

Q. {By Mr. Rives.) You say it is a novel pro- 
ceeding? A. To me entirely. 

Q. You never heard of its being done in any 
other case? A. Never. 

Mr. AsJcwith : Was there a paper or docu- 
ment appointing this sub-committee? 



196 



Mr. Choate : It will be here. I have sent 
for it. 

Q. {By Mr. Choate.) Were all these members of 
the Cup Committee on the boat when you boarded 
her from the Valkyrie? A. No, sir. 

Q. Which of them was not there? A. Mr. 
Kortright. 

Q. So that Mr. Smith, Mr. Tarns, Mr. Canfield, 
Mr. Rogers and Mr. Busk were there? A. Yes, 
sir. 

Q. Now, I understand you that certainly in that 
conference which they had after you were put on 
board, the subject of putting a watch or keeper or 
representative upon the Defender was not men- 
tioned in any way? A. I never heard it; I know 
the Committee did not act on any such sugges- 
tion. 

Q. {By Mr. Aslcwitli.) One question, if I may 
be allowed to ask. What could mere re- measure- 
ment prove ; could it prove anything more than 
faulty measurement? A. If ballast was shifted 
two or three times it would not do anything to 
prove or disprove that. 

Q. It would not, in fact, do anything to prove 
or disprove fraud? A. Not if — no; not if the 
ballast was in and out two or three times. 

Q. You had an idea that you thought an impli- 
cation of fraud had been made? A. Oh, yes. 

Q. {By Mr. Choate.) How long did this confer- 
ence of the Committee last? A. I don't know; 
I should think an hour at least. It was daylight 
when I got aboard and it was after dark when we 
finished. 

Q. The second going into the cabin with Lord 
Dunraven was at your request, I understand it? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Mr. AsJcioith : I think I had better ask Lord 
Dunraven a few questions I desire, and ask 
them now perhaps. 

Mr. Choate : Yes ; I think it would be 
better. 



197 



Lokd Dunkaven, recalled and further inter- 
rogated. 

By Mr. Aslcwith: 

Q. I think you have already really answered the 
question ; but was it, in your opinion, an impossi- 
bility, or even difficult, very difficult, for re-measure- 
ment to have taken place on the night of Saturday 
and Sunday? A. No; I see no difficulty about it, 
not by any means, myself. I think it is stated 
somewhere that the measurer was instructed to 
keep the measuring rod. If that is so, and that is 
the case, of course there would be no difficulty in 
ascertaining with the measuring rod whether there 
was any material difference in the water line length 
of both with a lantern. It might not have been 
possible at night to measure so accurately to the 
decimal of an inch, but it would be quite possible 
to do so within, say half an inch. 

Q. Your memory differs from that of Mr. Latham 
Fish in regard to the conversation you had with 
him. Are you absolutely and positively certain 
that you asked for the vessels to be taken charge 
of? A. Yes; positively certain. 

Q. Is that your letter? (showing) A. Yes. 
Q. And do you remember whether that was writ- 
ten on the date that is put in pencil, September 
27th, which was Friday, the day before you sailed 
on the Valhalla? A. Yes. 

Mr. AsJcwitTi : This is a private letter from 
Lord Dunraven to Mr. Kersey, which contains 
besides the part that I am going to read, some 
entirely private matters which are put in 
hyphens in red ink, and I would request that 
it be not printed. You may see them if you 
like. 

Lord Dunraven: Mr. Choate can see it. 
Mr. Choate: I don't think that is in the 
nature of evidence or ought to be received. 
Mr. Aslcwith: It is rather upon the matter 



i i 



19S 



of Lord Dunraven's having published this 
pamphlet with the belief upon his mind — full 
belief upon his mind — that he was only reiterat- 
ing a complaint. 

Mr. Choate; What is the date of that letter? 

Mr. Aslcwith: Friday night, September 27th. 

Mr. Choate: I still object to it as not being 
evidence of any fraud. 

Mr. Aslcwith: (Reading.) 

"R. Y. S., Valhalla. 

Deak Keesey: 

* * x * * * 

' ' The more I think of it the more I feel the diffi- 
culty of saying anything at home on the load water 
line question unless and until it comes out here. 
It would certainly raise a row, and I don't know 
whether Busk" — which Lord Dunraven corrects 
into " Fish " — " ever told the Committee I wished 
the ships measured immediately after the race. It 
would be offensive to Morgan and Vanderbilt, and 
I can prove nothing if the Committee were to say 
they had heard nothing of my wish. It would be 
Busk's word against mine. I don't think Grant will 
publish it after my letter : * * and you might cable 
him for me, "if my last letter made public, omit 
water length measurement." or words to that effect. 

3t X 4v Tf 'W 

" Yours sincerely, 

" D UNRAVEL. 

" I do not much like cabling myself from here. 
All the messages are tampered with." 

Q. You had a reason for that statement that 
messages were tampered with? A. Yes. 

Q. Which referred to another telegram that got 
into the papers? A. Yes. 

Q. With regard to your complaint before the 
first race, in which you stated it was obvious that 
alterations in the load water line length of a vessel 
could, under j>resent conditions, be made without 



199 

the owner's knowledge, or without a possibility of 
detection. You received no written answer to 
that? A. No. 

Q. But you had an interview with a gentleman in 
which reference was made to the subject? A. Yes. 

Q. Who is that? A. Mr. Smith, the chairman 
of the Cup Committee. 

Q. And he gave you verbally to understand that 
the Committee saw no object in reconsidering these 
points? A. Yes. 

Q. If any question is desired to be asked upon 
that, you are ready to answer it? A. Certainly. 

Q. With regard to the possible finding, in 
addition to the material point at issue, which 
this Commission may find, I put it to you, in 
everything that you have written or said, has your 
conduct been absolutely bona fide? A. Yes. 

Q. And has it been your view throughout that 
in publishing this statement of November 9th, you 
were re-stating a fact that you had previously 
uttered several times, and that was in the pam- 
phlet in which you were reviewing the conduct 
of the American Cup Committee? A. Yes. The 
pamphlet was a statement, a short history of all 
the events that occurred during the races. 

Q. And are you also most strongly of opinion 
that the statement which you had originally made 
could only have been properly sifted at the time, and 
that you asked for it to be sifted at that time? A. 
Certainly ; it could not have been determined ex- 
cept at the time, and I asked that it should be ; 
measures should have been taken to determine it at 
the time. 

Q. And did you publish this pamphlet on account 
of having read the report of the America's Cap Com- 
mittee to the New York Yacht Club, in which it ap- 
peared that no such matter had occurred, and that 
you had apparently been entirely satisfied, having 
made this complaint, and had cried fraud, if I may 
say so, without any grounds or without any bona 



200 



fide belief in it? A. Yes: on the report of the 
Cup Committee to the Club as I saw it in the press. 
The published report I only saw. day before yes- 
terday. 

Q. That report, a certain portion of it appears 
to have been communicated to the press, and a 
certain portion only? A. Yes, apparently. 

Q. That did not correctly reproduce what you 
had said? A. Quite so. 

Q. Did you feel that it was your duty, having 
made a statement, having published a statement, 
to stick to that statement? A. I do .not quite 

Q. Did you feel it your duty that having already 
made a statement and having published that state- 
ment, that you should stick to that statement, 
when another report was given forth to the world? 
A. Certainly. 

Mr. AsTcwith : Those are, I think, all the 
questions I have to ask. 

Q. {By Mr. Choate.) In your letter of the 27th 
September, you, as I recall it, express a doubt 
whether Mr. Fish mentioned the matter of your 
wish to the Cup Committee? A. I said I didn't 
know whether he did. I think I used that word. 

Q. Well, it is written ' ' Busk. " "I don't know 
whether Busk " — we will say in the place of that 
" Fish " — " ever told the Committee I wished the 
ships measured immediately after the race." Is 
that the only reference to that? A. What? 

Q. Is that the only reference to that? A. I 
don't know. 

Q. How came you to doubt that? Had there 
been any publication? What raised the doubt in 
your mind whether Fish ever told the Committee 
that you wished the ships re-measured immediately 
after the race? A. There was no particular doubt 
in my mind, but I did not know what Mr. Fish 
had said or what he had not said. 

Q. Well, it was a singular thing for you to write, 
wasn't it, unless you had some doubts or reason 



201 



for doubt on the subject? A. I think not, because 
the charge, the complaint that I made, hung so 
much upon whether my message had been accu- 
rately delivered to the Committee, that until I 
was certain that my message had been accurately 
given to the Committee, it made me more reluctant 
that the matter should be mentioned at all unless 
it was necessary. 

Q. Do you mean to say that you think that the 
testimony of all the people on board the Defender, 
or who had access to her from a time prior to her 
first measurement until a time after there-measure- 
ment, would not satisfactorily establish the fact 
whether these three acts of fraud, or episodes in 
the scheme of fraud that you had charged, had 
been done? A. I don't know how, by what method 
or by what means the vessel was sunk deeper 
in the water, and I have no idea therefore how 
many persons would necessarily be cognizant of 
the fact. I understand your question to be 

Q. Whether you are really of the opinion that 
the testimony of all the people that were on board 
the Defender, or had access to her from a time 
prior to the measurement on Friday, until a time 
subsequent to the re-measurement on Sunday, is 
not sufficient to establish the fact whether ballast 
or weight of any kind was taken out of her before 
her first measurement, put in after the first 
measurement, taken out again before the second 
measurement? A. No, I think not. 

Q. You think it is not? That is all. 

Q. {By Mr. AsJcwith.) Wby not? A. What? 

Q. Why not? A. Well, in the first place all 
the people on the Defender might not be cognizant 
of the fact. 

Q. You knew after October 25th, after the meet- 
ing and the report to the New York Yacht Club by 
the America's Cup Committee, that Mr. Fish had 
reported the matter to the Committee? A. Oh, I 



202 



knew before that Mr. Fish had mentioned the 
matter to the Cup Committee. 

Q. In this letter of September 27th, it is rather 
hinted you did not know exactly what he said? A. 
I know he had reported to the Committee some- 
thing, because it resulted in the vessels being 
ordered re-measured and marked. 

Q. Are these slips of papers that you have re- 
ceived from America (showing papers) detailing the 
report of the meeting of October 24th, which told 
you what the America's Cup Committee's report 
was? A. What is that? 

Q. Are these the papers which told you what the 
report of the America's Cup Committee was? A. 
Yes. 

Q. It is on comparison to be seen. The report 
in all these papers is exactly the same, and begins 
with the words " On Saturday, September 7th"? 
A. Yes. 

Q. And does not contain the previous part at all, 
which was new to you, and which you deny as 
being known to you? A. Yes. 

Q. Of an arrangement being made previous to the 
first race for the re-measuring after the first race on 
Sunday, September 8th? A. Quite so. 

Q. Did measurement satisfy you, occurring after 
this race? A. No, sir; it did not. 

Q. Will you explain that? A. Measurement in 
that way on the next day, or measurement the 
same evening to some extent— not to the same ex- 
tent — unless, as I think I have stated somewhere 
in the pamphlet, steps were taken to prevent any 
alteration being made in the length of the water 
line the vessels were sailing on, would not possibly 
prove anything, unless it was that the first meas- 
urement had been a faulty measurement. It could 
not prove or disprove any question of any matter 
which has been termed a matter of fraud, because 
obviously if ballast of any kind were fraudulently 
put into the vessel, it could be equally fraudulently 



203 



taken out again before re-measurement, unless steps 
were taken to prevent it. 

Q. And is that one of your reasons for saying if 
the evidence Mr. Choate indicated was produced, 
that could not satisfy you against the clear evidence 
of your senses and what you saw on the morning 
of September 7th, that the vessel had not been 
tampered with? A. Quite so. As a matter of 
proving or disproving my charge, in my opinion 
nothing would have been satisfactory except what 
I maintain I requested Mr. Pish to say to the Com- 
mittee, that the vessels should be taken charge of ; 
steps in fact taken to see that ballast could not 
possibly be taken out of them, and then that they 
should be re-measured if possible that evening, or 
as soon as possible, but taken charge of in the 
meantime. 

Q. Assuming, as I presume will undoubtedly be 
so, that Mr. Iselin goes on the stand and says 
that he knew nothing whatsoever about it, does 
that affect at all your opinion that the boat had 
been tampered with? A. No. 

Q. You have mentioned in your pamphlet that 
you knew that Mr. Iselin and the other gentlemen 
interested in the Defender, did not live on board 
her. From your knowledge of yacht racing, are 
you aware, can you say, as a general fact, in 
cases of tampering that have occurred in both horse 
racing and in yacht racing, that very often the 
owners are the very last persons who are either re- 
sponsible for, know anything of, or have any deal- 
ings with the tampering that may take place? A. 
I think it is quite possible; certainly quite pos- 
sible that a vessel might be tampered with without 
the knowledge of the owner. I stated that I be- 
lieved that none of the owners of the Defender 
lived on board her or on board the Hatty Palmer. 
Of course, I am not certain about it, but that is my 
impression. 

Q. This race was looked upon as a very impor- 



204 



tant race and there was a good deal of money on 
it? A. I believe so. 

Q. Which money was of importance, and might 

be the reason of A. I believe there was a 

great deal of betting on it. I never made any 
suggestion that anybody interested in the vessel 
had any money up. I believe it was public money. 

Q. {By Mr. Choate.) If the owners did not do 
it, who do you think on board had any motive to 
do it? A. I don't know who was left in charge of 
the vessel when Mr. Iselin was away. 

Q. Do you think that whoever was left in charge 
of the vessel had a motive for doing it? A. I pre- 
sume so. 

Q. With what object? A. If you are alluding 
to what Mr. Askwith mentioned about money, I 
have made no suggestions and have no idea that 
money was the motive. I merely mentioned in 
that pamphlet, I believe, there being a great deal 
of money on the races incidentally with the great 
excitement they cause, and so on. 

Q. Excluding the owners, what motive can you 
ascribe to any persons in charge of the boat for do- 
ing it? A. In order to improve the chances of the 
boat ; to benefit the boat. 

Q. At what point of time does it appear to you 
that there was a chance to benefit the boat by do- 
ing it? A. It would have benefited, of course, if 
she was lightened up for the purposes of measure- 
ment, and was afterwards put back into her proper 
trim. 

Q. Then it would be the point of time before the 
first measurement they must have had the design? 
A. It might have benefited in many ways. She 
would be equally benefited if you anticipated hard 
wind and heavy sea, and so on, having additional 
ballast put into her on that particular occasion. 

Q. Well, the fraud as you planned it, must have 
originated before the measurement on Friday morn- 
ing, mustn't it? A. Of necessity, I think not. 



205 



Q. No? A. I think not. 

Q. Well, but you said yesterday that she had 
been lightened up before the first measurement for 
the purposes of that measurement; and then after- 
wards loaded? A. Might I have the answer in 
which I stated that? I don't think I said so. 

Q. Yes, you described it as three episodes ; one 
before the first measurement? A. It is possible I did. 
Mr. AsTcwith : That is the phrase you put 
to him, I think. 

Lord Dunraven : I think what I said my- 
self was, that she was much lighter when she 
came to be measured than when she came into 
dock the first time I saw her. 

Q. {By Mr. Choate.) What was the weather 
Friday morning as you recall it? A. I think I 
have already said that the weather on Friday was 
blowing. 

Q. Friday morning? A. My impression is it 
was blowing on Friday morning, a little wind and 
sea outside. 

Q. Now, there is one point of time I want to fix 
as exactly as I can from you before you go. What 
time did you reach the Erie Basin on the Friday 
when the first measurement took place? A. That 
was the 6th? 

Mr. AsTcwith : That was the 6th. 

A. I should think about half -past 10. I cannot 
be the least positive. It was 10 or half-past ten, I 
should think. 

Q. The Valkyrie was measured first, wasn't she? 
A. Yes. 

Q. What time was she measured? A. Again, I 
cannot be positive, but I should think about half- 
past 11. 

Q. And you remained how long after that? A. 
How long after the Valkyrie was measured? 

Q. Yes? A. Oh, some — until after the Defend- 
er's water line had been measured, and until after 
Mr. Watson had left the Defender. 



206 



Q. Who had left the Defender? A. Mr. Wat- 
son. I should think until about 2 o'clock. 

Q. Now, you took an observation that day of the 
Defender and her water line and saw this escape 
pipe? A. Yes. 

Q. And the bob-stay bolt. When did you first 
take that observation? How long after you got to 
the Erie Basin? A. Before we were measured. 

Q. Before we were measured; before the Val- 
kyrie was? A. I think so, yes. 

Q. How long before the Valkyrie was measured 
did you make the observation? A. It is very diffi- 
cult to answer even approximately correctly ques- 
tions of that kind after this lapse of time. 

Q. I cannot expect you to be absolutely accurate ? 
A. I don't pretend to be. I think the Valkyrie, 
as I say, was measured about half-past eleven, and, 
of course, I was on her then and had been on her 
probably for half an hour or so before, and during 
that time 

Q. Wasn't it one of the first things you did 
after arriving at the Erie Basin to take the obser- 
vation you made of the Defender? A. No; I 
think not. 

Q. But you think it was before half-past eleven 
when the Valkyrie was measured? A. Yes. 

Q. While the Valkyrie was being measured you 
attended, I suppose, to that? A. No ; I was placed 
in position on the Valkyrie. 

Q. How long did it take, the measuring of the 
Valkyrie? A. On that occasion I don't think very 
long. The second time we were kept waiting two 
or three hours there. We were kept in position 
until the water line was measured. I could not 
say. 

Q. On your own vessel? A. Yes. 

Q. Now, did you keep watching the Defender 
from the time you arrived or from a time prior to 
the measuring of the Valkyrie, until you left the 
Basin? A. Off and on. 



207 



Q. But the observation you have testified to and 
that you rely upon, is the one you have now re- 
ferred to, is it not, made before the measuring of 
the Yalkyrie? A. Oh, no. I observed her again 
later; especially when Mr. Watson called my 
attention to some marks upon her. 

Q. When was this? A. That would be, I think, 
after her water Kne was measured. 

Q. After she had been remeasured ? A.I think 
so. 

Q. Between those two points of time you don't 
remember taking any notice of her? A. Oh, no; 
I won't say that. I probably noticed her con- 
stantly. 

Q. Well, making any observations upon which 
you have relied in your testimony ? A. I observed 
her probably more carefully when I first came 
down, and again after Mr. Watson requested me 
to do so. 

Q. What was the position of her boom that day? 
A. I don't remember. 

Q. You don't remember? A. I should presume 
amidship, for measurement. 

Q. No, but from observation? A. I don't know. 

Q. What was the condition of her boom when 
you saw her on the 31st of August in the Basin? 
A. I should say amidships. 

Q. Do you remember; did you observe? A. I 
cannot swear it was. The sail was not set, and I 
don't think any preparations were being made to 
set the sail. 

Q. Now, you say that in the morning there was 
considerable wind? A. My recollection is there 
was some wind in the morning, yes. You are re- 
ferring to Friday morning. 

Q. Friday morning. A. I think so. 

Q. Can you say whether there was any change 
of wind, decrease or increase, between your first 
arrival in the Erie Basin and the time when you 
left? A. No. 



208 



Q. Did you not understand on September 6th 
that the yachts were to again go up to the Basin to 
be marked? A. No. 

Q. No understanding; and you heard nothing 
from anybody about it? A. No understanding or 
anything of the kind. 

Q. Had you any communication or any conver- 
sation with Mr. Canfield, or with Mr. Rogers, be- 
fore you went to the Erie Basin on the 7th? A. I 
don't think I saw Mr. Canfield two or three days 
before the measurement. I am sure I had no con- 
versation with Mr. Rogers. 

Q. The report of the Committee says : " It was 
therefore arranged with Lord Dunraven and Mr. 
Iselin that the yachts should be marked as the 
former requested on the morning of the day follow- 
ing the first race, and that the representatives from 
each side should be present." You say you were 
no party to such an arrangement? A. Certainly. 

Q. And no one spoke to you about it? A. No, 
sir. Never heard of it until yesterday. 

Q. Did you know of the existence of a sub-com- 
mittee representing the Cup Committee? A. No. 

Q. {By the Chairman.) By what methods can 
you suggest that this additional weight could have 
been put into the Defender between the time of her 
first measurement and the sailing of the race, either 
by water or dry ballast? A. I should not like to 
suggest any particular way. Of course, the weight 
could be put in by simply putting in pig lead. 
Weights could be let in by tubes or tanks or any- 
thing of the kind for the purpose of containing 
water, and lead could be put in the shape of shot 
probably easier than it could be put in the shape of 
pig lead, but I make no suggestion because I have 
formed no idea. 

Q. My question is as to the possible modes and 
not the methods that might have been employed 
in this case, but as to the methods open to be 



209 



employed? A. Water and lead then would be the 
two most natural ways. 

Q. Could water have been used without tanks? 
A. Water would be useless, in my opinion, unless 
it was contained in tanks or tubes or bags. It 
would have to be contained. Loose water would 
not be of any value. 

Q. {By Captain Mahan.) I was going to in- 
quire whether the observation you made on the 
draught of the Defender in the Erie Basin was 
after her measurement on the 6th of September, on 
Friday? A. Both before and after. 

Captain Mahan : That was not left clear on 
my mind by Mr. Choate's question. 

Mr. Whitney : I was going to ask whether 
among these affidavits that have been put in, 
Mr. Henderson's was included; is there any 
from Mr. Henderson? 
Mr. AsTcwith: No. 

Q. (By Mr. Whitney.) Did Mr. Henderson 
take the observation ; did you converse with Mr. 
Henderson about what you observed on the morn- 
ing of Saturday? A. Did I speak to him? 

Q. Yes? A. I have no recollection of speaking 
to him personally, but I have no doubt that he 
must have — very likely did — and I have no doubt 
he must have heard about it when he came on board 
the Yalkyrie. 

Q. This is for the Committee to know, of course, 
what other persons you communicated with that 
day who are able to say or would testify that they 
made the same observations with regard to the con- 
dition of the Defender, from your knowledge, I 
mean, and your conversations with them ? A. The 
only other persons who, I believe, would endorse 
what I have said as to the fact that the vessel was 
deeper in the water, were the pilot and master of the 
City of Bridgeport. 

Q. What were their names; do you remember? 
A. Yes, I know their names. Young was the 



210 



name of the pilot, and Parker the name of the 
master. 

Q. (By Mr. Hives:) What is Young ; a regular 
Sandy Hook pilot? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And where is Parker employed now ; do you 
know ? A. I do not exactly know what he is doing 
now. 

Mr. AsJcwith : I think we could obtain the 
addresses. 

Lord Dunraven : Oh, yes, there is no diffi- 
culty about that. I have never asked them to 
come forward because I did not think it was 
right for me to do so. 

Mr. Asliwitli : In regard to the position of 
the boats to be marked on the plan, Lord Dun- 
raven cannot recall himself at the moment just 
where they were, but the pilot may be able to 
fix it. 

Lord Dunraven : I mark with a cross as 
near as I can guess where we lay in the Horse- 
shoe, but the pilot could have no possible ob- 
jection to doing that, and no doubt he could 
give the position with accuracy. 
Q. (By Mr. Choate.) Lord Dunraven, you wished 
a certain question and answer to be found, and here 
it is, and I want to see if you answer now in the 
same way. Page 116.* I read it as it has been 
corrected by the stenographer : 

"Then you think there were three decep- 
tions practiced ; taking out ballast before she 
was measured on the 6th, putting it in again 
after she was measured on the 7th, and taking 
it out again before she was measured on Sun- 
day, do you? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Three separate acts, to make out this 
plan? A. I should scarcely call them separate 
acts, because of course they would all depend 
one upon the other. 

Q. You would not think the taking out of 
nine or ten tons before she was measured on 
the 6th, putting in the same quantity after 

* See page 81. 



211 



she was measured on the 7th, and taking it out 
again before she was measured on Sunday, 
were three separate acts? A. I should call 
them three episodes. 

Q. Three episodes in the same scheme of 

fraud? A. If you choose to put it that way" ; 

Would you answer the same question in the same 

way now, to-day? A. If you will read the first 

question. 

' ' Mr. CTioate : (reading) Then you think there 
were three deceptions practised : taking out 
ballast before she was measured on the 6th, 
putting it in again after she was measured on 
the 7th, and taking it out again before she was 
measured on Sunday, do you? A. Yes, sir." 

A. Then I should prefer to correct and amend 
that. 

Q. Now, how would you put it? A. I should 
say that might have been the case. I have never 
said more than the fact that the vessel was — the 
three facts, rather— that she was lighter when she 
came to be measured than when she came to be 
scrubbed out after the last trial race, and that she 
was deeper when she sailed than when she was 
measured ; but whether there were three deceptions 
practiced or not I cannot say. Of necessity there 
was no deception whatever in the vessel being much 
lighter when she came to be measured. 

Q. But, then, there would be two acts of decep- 
tion, would there not? A. Yes, there may have 
been three. 

Q. Now, I wish you would tell the Committee 
again how such a scheme as that could, in your 
opinion, have been carried out without the knowl- 
edge of her owners? A. If the owners were not 
there I do not see how they could of necessity have 
known it. 

Q. You account for that simply on the supposi- 
tion that the owners were absent at all those times ? 
A. I do not account for it in any way. I say if 
the owners, as I believe, were not in the vessel at 



212 



the time, they could not possibly know for certain 
what was occurring in the vessel during their ab- 
sence. 

Q. Do you think it is possible that the owner, or 
managing owner, should have charge of the yacht 
all that time, from Friday morning till Sunday, 
without knowing what was in her all the time, be- 
tween her starting on the race on Saturday and her 
return from the race on Saturday evening, suppos- 
ing he accompanied her, and was on board during 
the race? A. If he was on board during the race, he 
would presumably know what occurred during the 
race ; if he was not on board, not before and not 
after, I do not see how he could presumably know 
what occurred then. 

Q. You have been on board the Defender, haven't 
you? A. No. 

Q. You know her general construction ? A. No. 

Q. You have heard it described by Mr. Herres- 
hoff? A. Yesterday? 

Q. Yes. A. Yes, I remember that. 

Q. Do you think an honest and intelligent owner 
could have been on board her on the race of Satur- 
day without knowing what was inside of her? A. 
Oh, yes. 

Q. What could there be and where could it be? 
A. Where could what be? 

Q. Whatever you think there could be in her 
that he did not know of ; what could it be and 
where could it be? A. If lead would have been 
put into her it would have been below. 

Q. Below where? A. Below the floor down at 
the bottom of the vessel. 

Q. If there were anything else than lead, where 
would it be? A. Whatever the weight was put 
in it would be naturally there. 

Q. Under the floor? A. Under the floor. 

Q. Of the cabin? A. Of the cabin. I don't 
know the least what the Defender is like below the 
cabin. 



213 



Q. Don't yon think it wonld be the natural thing 
for the managing owner on board in charge of a 
yacht to look under the floor? A. Not unless he 
was very suspicious. 

Q. Not unless he was suspicious? A. Not unless 
he was suspicious. 

Q. You would not do it? A. No, I think not, 
unless there was any particular cause to do it. 

Q. You would not look for lead that had been 
ordered to be put in, and you would not look for 
water, if you were in charge? A. I should look, 
if what I believe has been stated on this occasion, 
lead had been left on the cabin floor with directions 
to stow it below, I should probably look to see if 
it had been done. 

Q. And you would think that the natural thing for 
a managing owner in charge onboard to do, wouldn't 
you? A. I should think that was quite natural. 

Q. As Mr. Herreshofl stated he did? A. Yes. 
Mr. Choate : I feel bound to call Mr. Can- 
field, because I think there is a difference be- 
tween him and Lord Dunraven, before Lord 
Dunraven goes. 

A. Cass Ca^field, called and interrogated by 
Mr. Choate, as follows : 

Q. You were Secretary of the Cup Committee? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. I am informed by you that there was no 
record made of the appointment of a sub-commit- 
tee? A. No, sir. 

Q. Was there a sub-committee appointed? A. 
Yes, I think it was a definite appointment ; two of 
the members were delegated for this particular pur- 
pose, and I suppose that could be called an appoint- 
ment of a sub -committee. I speak in that way 
because the meeting was rather hurried and infor- 
mal in character. 

Q. When and where was that meeting held? A. 
That meeting was held on Friday morning, Sep- 



214 



tember 6th, and at Mr. Smith's office, 42 Broad 
Street. 

Q. Was it a full, or approximately full meeting 
of the Committee? A. My impression is that Mr. 
Busk, I think Mr. Rogers, myself — naming them as 
we picked them on the way down and got them 
together — Mr. Smith, Mr. Fish and I think Mr. 
Tarns came in just toward the end of the meeting 
practically as we were breaking up. 

Q. What was done at that meeting? A. This 
letter from Lord Dunraven, dated September 6th, 
asking that the yachts be marked on the outside at 
the load water line, was presented. 

Q. And was the meeting called to consider that 
letter? A. Yes, sir, the meeting was called together 
for that purpose. 

Q. That is the letter which states that he wishes 
to call attention to another matter which he does 
not consider satisfactory, that the contest might 
last ten days or a fortnight, and for the reason 
stated he requests that the measurer be requested 
to mark each vessel's L. W. L. on stem and stern, 
etc., at page 36 of the America's Cup Committee's 
report? A. Yes. 

Q. That letter having been written, this meeting 
was called to consider it, and it resulted in the 
appointment of a sub-committee. What persons 
were appointed on that sub-committee? A. Mr. 
Archibald Rogers and myself. 

Q. Mr. Rogers is in town, or will be? A. He 
will be in town, this afternoon, yes. 

Q. What were you appointed for, or what were 
you instructed to do? A. We were instructed to 
arrange that the boats should be marked as Lord 
Dunraven requested, provided Mr.Iselin acquiesced. 

Q. What action followed after the adjournment 
of the meeting? Was Mr. Rogers present? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. What happened? A. Mr. Rogers and myself 
went over to the Erie Basin. 



215 



Q. This was Friday, the 6th? A. This was 
Friday, the 6th. I think before going over we 
telephoned over that we were coming and would 
like to see Lord Dunraven, and I have the impres- 
sion on my mind — I can't tell yon why — when we 
got over there, as I remember it, the Valkyrie had 
been measured, and taken out of the Basin, and 
they were at work measuring the Defender. We 
waited some time until the water line had been 
measured, and then went off to the Defender and 
spoke to Mr. Iselin, and Mr. Iselin at once acqui- 
esced in the idea of marking the boats in this way 
at the water level at each end of the vessel. We 
came back from the Defender and Mr. Kersey came 
up in the tug that he usually employed — the Pul- 
ver — and told us that he would take us to see Lord 
Dunraven, who was alongside the Valkyrie on the 
City of Bridgeport. We went off with Mr. Kersey, 
and went on board the City of Bridgeport and met 
Lord Dunraven — this is my recollection — and in- 
formed him that the question of the marking had 
been agreed to, and Mr. Iselin was entirely willing 
it should be done and the Committee were willing 
it should be done. 

Q. Should be done when? why wasn't it done 
then? A. Lord Dunraven brought us back to the 
Erie Basin on the City of Bridgeport — I beg your 
pardon. Did you ask why it was not done then? 

A. Why it was not done then, on Friday, if all 
agreed? A. Well, we thought it was better to do 
it Friday, and I understood that the Valkyrie had 
touched in going out of the Basin. 

Q. The report says that the Valkyrie had been 
already measured and had left the Basin, and on 
account of the tide could not return in order to be 
marked that day? A. Yes. 

Q. Did you so understand it? A. Yes. 

Q. And was a day then fixed for the marking as 
well as the re -measuring ? A. My recollection is that 



216 



we agreed that the yachts should come up to the 
Basin at, I think, half-past ten on Sunday morning. 

Q. And were any instructions given to the 
measurer about preserving the mark batten, as it 
is called? A. Yes. 

Q. Did you give that? A. I told him to pre- 
serve the mark batten in order that he could locate 
the points the same as they were when the boats 
were measured on Friday. 

Mr. Choate : That is all. As this differed, 
as I supposed, from LordDunraven's recollec- 
tion of it, it was proper to call Mr. Canheld. 

Mr. Canfleld : I would like to say that this 
is merely what Mr. Rogers and I — I think you 
will find he agrees entirely in this — what we 
intended to convey to all parties there, that 
the boats were to be there on Sunday morning 
at half -past ten to be marked. I feel very 
strongly about it, because I know it was the 
intention of the Committee and Mr. Rogers 
and myself to carry out at once Lord Dun- 
raven's request, and we did not mean to have 
the thing forced upon us by his complaint on 
Saturday evening. 

Q. (By Mr. Choate.) Who had received this 
letter? It was a letter directed to yourself, wasn't 
it? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. It is marked, or dated, September 6th. When 
had you received it? A.I think it came the morn- 
ing of the 6th. 

Q. Where did you live? A. I was stopping at 
the University Club. 

Q. And it came? A. The letter came to the 
Yacht Club, as I remember it, and I am not sure 
whether it was sent over to the Club. Some of the 
notes Lord Dunraven sent by messenger to this 
Club were sent over to the University Club. 

Q. And you immediately attended to it? A. 
Yes, sir. 



217 



Q. {By Mr. AsJcwith.) Was there any record of 
the meeting of the Committee in writing? A. No, 
sir. 

Q. Are you perfectly certain it was on Friday 
morning? A Yes, sir; I am perfectly certain. 

Q. Mr. Fish was here just now and he said it was 
on Thursday night? A. I am sure Mr. Rogers and 
I went directly from the meeting. 

Q. You had two meetings? A. No. 

Q. What time in the morning was it? A. I think 
our meeting was from eleven to half -past eleven. 
It was a very hurried meeting, in order to get the 
members together to consider this letter and what 
should be done. 

Q. With regard to this arrangement that you in- 
tended to convey you stated, to both parties, that 
they were to be re-measured certainly upon Sunday 
morning, do you think that you gave definite in- 
formation to either Lord Dunraven or to Mr. Wat- 
son? A. Well, we thought we did, yes, sir; and I 
have no recollection of having communicated — of 
the Committee having communicated with Lord 
Dunraven or the Yalkyrie, telling him at any period 
between that time and Sunday morning, to come up 
there. 

Q. If the boats were to be re-measured at any 
time it would be a natural thing for the measurer 
to keep the batten, would it not? That was not 
specially ordered that he should keep the batten 
for that special measurement? A. No. 

Q. It is the usual thing for the measurer having 
once measured a boat and knowing that the races 
between the boats are continuing, to keep the bat- 
tens? A. That is his practice, and I really don't 
know whether he would or not. All we wanted was 
to secure the mark to be placed in the right place. 
It was rather a joke. It was stated in the presence 
of Mr. Watson, and he said, "I will take care of it 
and put it on the City of Bridgex^ort." 

Mr. AskwitJi : We only became aware of 



218 



this statement, about the arrangement, upon 
Thursday night, and Lord Dunraven had never 
heard of it, and it had never been brought to 
his mind, and we sent a cablegram to Mr. Wat- 
son asking, ' ' When were you first aware that 
vessels were to be externally marked, ' ' and the 
answer came back, ' ' On Saturday night, I 
think ; I am not quite certain." His mind evi- 
dently being upon the question of when in- 
formation was given to him, that, in accord- 
ance with Lord Dunraven 's protest during the 
race, re-measurement was to take place on Sun- 
day. I have not got the original of that tele- 
gram here, but I will find it. It is somewhere 
among my numerous papers. 
Q. When you arrived at the Erie Basin, with this 
message from the sub-committee, you found De- 
fender there? A. Yes. 

Q. (By Mr. Choate.) In the Basin? A. Yes. 
Q. {By Mr. Askwith.) She was going to be 
measured? A. As I remember it, they were en- 
gaged in the measuring. 

Q. In the process? A. In the process of measur- 
ing the load water line. 

Q. Mr Iselin was there? A. Yes. 
Q. And he agreed to the marking? A. Yes, 
he said he thought it would be an excellent thing. 

Q. Why wasn't it done then? A. Well, we 
didn't think the Yalkyrie could come back and be 
measured that day. 

Q. Why didn't you mark the Defender? A. 
Why didn't we? 

Q. If you were agreed? A. I didn't think one 
boat ought to be marked without the other, if you 
ask my reason. 

Q. In the arrangement, in the altered agreement 
that was made between Lord Dunraven and Mr. 
Iselin with regard to the races, or between the Club 
and Lord Dunraven, are you aware that there was 
a special undertaking or clause against Sunday 



219 



work, and that a clear week day was arranged to 
intervene? A. A special clause against Sunday 
work ? 

Q. It was specially stipulated that there should 
be a clear week day between each race? A. Yes. 
That was subsequent. 

Q. Was not that done, that stipulation expressly 
made for the purpose of avoiding working Sunday ? 
A. Well, it was made at Mr. Iselin's request. 
What his motive was I don't know. 

Q. Isn't it so that almost at the same time this 
was arranged, you also made the arrangement 
that the re-measurement should take place upon 
Sunday? A. I d.on't think I understand the 
question exactly. Will you repeat it? 

Q. I am putting to you that this arrangement 
about the clear week day had been expressly stip- 
ulated for in order that work would be avoided 
upon Sunday? A. That I don't know at all. 

Q. Well, whether that was express or not, the 
arrangement was made that work should be done 
Sunday with respect to this re-measurement? A. 
The re-measurement was to take place Sunday. 

Q. You did not see the letter of Lord Dunraven 
dated September 5th? A. Yes, I remember this 
letter quite well. 

Q. Lord Dunraven rather there seems to be 
dealing with the question of Sunday work having 
been avoided? A. Yes. 

Q. (Reading.) " It maybe an advantage to men 
at home to have plenty of rest between races, but 
to strangers it is a positive disadvantage. There is 
a certain amount of anxiety and wear and tear on 
all hands, and it is better for the men to be employed 
than doing nothing. I am opposed to Sunday work 
if it can be avoided, but I do not see how under the 
original arrangement of dates, Sunday work could 
have been necessary," the whole letter dealing 
with the proposal of Mr. Iselin, which was finally 
accepted, that there should be a clear working 



220 



day between each of the races. That letter is at 
page 35 of the report? A. That request, if I may 
make the statement, was granted because Mr. 
Iselin asked for it, as Mr. Smith, the Chairman of 
the Committee reported Lord Dunraven did not 
object. Why Mr. Iselin asked for it I have never 
asked, as it was not our business. 

Mr. Askwith : Would it be equally con- 
venient for the Committee to adjourn for 
luncheon now as well as later, as Lord Dun- 
raven has to leave for the boat at one o'clock? 
The Chairman : Lord Dunraven does not 
desire to appear before the Committee after 
the recess again ? 

Lord Dunraven : ~No. If it is the same to 
the Committee, it would be convenient for me 
to have five or ten minutes more for prepara- 
tion for departure. 

The Chairman : Yes, we will adjourn now 
until a quarter of two o'clock. 



221 



New Yokk, December 28, 1895. 

1.45 o'clock p. m. 

Nathaniel Gr. Heeeeshoff re-called. 

Mr. Herreshoff : The question this morning 
I understood to be what amount it would take 
to heel the Defender one inch. The question 
was one degree. I stated three-quarters of a 
ton would be one inch. One degree of inclina- 
tion would probably take nearly two tons, as a 
rough estimate. 

By Mr. Whitney : 

Q. How much in inches is a degree? A. Two 
inches. Between two and two and a quarter 
inches. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. You say it would take two tons? A. In the 
neighborhood of two tons. 

By Captain Mahan : 

Q. Is that the result of calculation you have 
made since, or is it simply an estimate still? A. 
Simply a partial estimate. I made a rough calcu- 
lation of the amount before. 

By Mr. Whitney : 

Q. How many did she carry m her crew? 
Mr. Herreshoff ; During the cup races? 
Mr. Whitney ; Yes. 
A. There were fifty, I think. I am not positive, 
but about fifty. 
Q. Some fifty men? A. I think so. 

By Mr. Choate : 

Q. You were present at the re-measuring on Sun- 
day? A. Yes, sir. 



222 



Q. In what capacity were you there? A. On 
behalf of Mr. Iselin, to see that the measurement 
was carried on correctly. 

Q. Mr. Watson was there, was he not? A. Yes, 
sir. 

Q. Representing the Valkyrie? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Were you present at the marking that took 
place at that time on the stem, and the placing of 
the disc on each side of the Defender? A. Yes, 
sir. 

Q. Were they correctly marked? A. Yes, sir. 
Satisfactorily. 

Q. And Mr. Watson oversaw it with you? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. There was one question suggested to me by 
what has occurred since you were on the stand. 
Could there have been any lead other than what 
you saw in the centre of the boat when the floor 
was taken up and you examined it on Friday morn- 
ing, and you not see it? A. No, unless it was 
stowed in under the wings. 

Q. What would be the sense in stowing it under 
the wings? A. There would be no sense in it par- 
ticularly. 

Q. Why not? A. It would only increase her 
stability to a moderate amount, compared to the 
increase if it was stowed lower down on the keel. 

Q. You agree with what Lord Dunraven said, 
that to have any effect upon the stability of the 
vessel, it must be as low down as possible? A. 
Yes, certainly. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. What do you mean by the wings f A. The 
part underne ath the cabin floor, at the sides. 

Q. Here (indicating on the model)? A. Along 
there, that place just underneath the floor. 

By Mr. Choate : 

Q. When the re-measurement took place, or at 



223 



any time, did you and Mr. Watson look down 
under the floor? A. Not at the re-measurement. 

Q. When? A. Before the first measurement on 
the 6th. 

Q. Did he look with you? A. Yes; I went there. 
I had the cabin floor taken up the whole length of 
the vessel and we inspected it. 

Q. Before the first measurement? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What was done with this extra ton, as we 
have called it, of lead that was then on the cabin 
floor? A. That was only the middle part of the 
floor that was taken up, leaving the lead under the 
stern at either side. 

By Mr. Whitney; 

Q. You spoke about a disc being marked on the 
boat; what was that? A. A circle, painted with 
red paint. 

Q. What did that indicate? A. It was placed 
so that the lower edge of it was. at a tangent with 
the surface of the water. 

By Mr. Choate-: 

Q. The lower edge of it just touched the water? 
A. Yes, sir. 

By Mr. Whitney : 

Q. What part of the boat was it on? A. It was 
somewhat aft of amidships. 

By Mr. Rives : 

Q. On each side? A. On each side. The posi- 
tion was about there (indicating). 

By the Chairman : 

Q. From the water line up? A. Yes, sir. 

By Mr. Whitney : 

Q. That is considerably aft, is it not? A. Yes, 
sir; as far aft as it could be painted well and seen. 
It would be difficult to get it under the stern and 
make a mark there ; so that we substituted the two 



224 



discs instead of making the mark at the stern, as 
being inaccessible. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. At the second measurement? A. Yes, sir; 
directly after the second measurement. 

Q. That is the re-marking that is referred to ? A. 
That is the only marking. 

Mr. Choate : That is all, unless Mr. Ask with 
wishes to ask some questions. 

Mr. AsTcwith : I prefer to ask Mr. Herreshoff 
some questions on Monday morning, if there 
is no objection. 

Mr. Choate: All right. He had hoped to 
leave, but he will have to stay until Monday 
morning, or be back Monday morning. I will 
call Mr. Leeds, who wishes to leave town this 
afternoon. 

Heebeet C. Leeds, called as a witness on be- 
half of Mr. Iselin, testified as follows : 

Examined by Mr. Choate : 

Q. You were on the Defender all Summer, from 
the time she was built, were you not? A. Yes, 
sir. From start to finish. 

Q. That is, you sailed all the trial races? A. In 
every race. 

Q. In every race? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Will you tell the Committee what, if any, 
ballast she had during the trial races? A. She 
never had any ballast until the Cup races. 

Q. Where were you from the time that she was 
measured on the Friday until she was re-measured 
on the Sunday? A. I was with Mr. Iselin and the 
rest of the party. 

Q. You attended the first measurement, did you, 
on Friday? A. Yes, sir; on Friday I was present. 

Q. You were there with Mr. Iselin? A. Yes, 
sir. 



225 

Q. What attention did you pay to the measure- 
ment, if any? A. None. 

Q. Before the measurement did you observe the 
Defender to see whether she had any list on or not? 
A. I did. 

Q. How long before the measurement? A. It 
may have been half an hour ; it may have been an 
hour. 

Q. What did you observe ? A. I noticed that she 
had a list to starboard. 

Q. Did you do anything in consequence of that 
observation on your part? A. I told Mr. Iselin of 
it, and requested him to throw the boom over to 
port. 

Q. Was that done? A. My impression was that 
it was done. I did not see it. 

Q. You boarded the Defender, with Mr. Iselin, on 
the morning of Saturday, down at the Horseshoe, 
did you not? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. At about what hour? A. My recollection is 
it was after eight o'clock. 

Q. What familiarity and experience have you 
had with yachting and with other boats than the 
Defender? A. I sailed the Vigilant; was on the 
Vigilant in 1893 ; I sailed the Gloriana other years, 
and in different races. 

Q. And from your previous experience in the 
Summer of 1895 you had become entirely familiar 
with her? 

Mr. Leeds : With the Defender? 
Mr. Choate : With the Defender. 
A. Certainly. 

Q. You had seen her as she lay in the Erie 
Basin at the time she was measured the day be- 
fore? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. When you boarded her on Saturday morn- 
ing, did you observe that she was immersed lower 
in the water than she had been on Friday in the 
Erie Basin? A. No. 



226 



Q. Do you remember on which side of her you 
boarded her? A. I could not say positively. 

Q. How long was that before Lord Dunraven 
put Mr. Henderson on board? A. I should state 
it was about three-quarters of an hour, at a rough 
estimate. 

Q. Will you state how the weather was at that 
time, and from that time until Mr. Henderson 
came on board? A. I think the water was what 
you call a little sloppy ; there was a little swell 
on. As Mr. Herreshoff says, caused by passing 
steamers, and also by the sea rolling. 

Q. Did you observe whether there was or was 
not any wind? A. I think there was a little 
wind. 

Q. As to the motion of the Defender at that 
time when you and Mr. Henderson came on board, 
what kind of a motion was it? A. It would be a 
slight motion, 

Q. On the previous trial races had you observed 
any habit of Mr. Iselin as to examination before 
the race began? 

Mr. Leeds : Examination of what? 
Mr. Choate : Of the inside of the Defender. 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What had been his habit? A. It was his 
custom always to ask if there was any water in 
the boat, and look himself to see, down below ; 
not only at the trial races, but all the season. 

Q. Did you take any part in the examination 
which Mr. Herreshoff has testified to, made by 
himself and Mr. Iselin and Captain Haff, that 
morning — taking up the floor and examining the 
lead, whether it had been properly packed? A. I 
examined the lead, but I cannot state at what 
hour, whether it was that morning or not. 

Q. What did you observe? A. I observed that 
the three tons were there, practically. I could 
not say exactly three tons. I remember the lead 
being there. 



227 



Q. Had there been any larger quantity, would 
you have observed it? A. Yes, a considerably 
larger quantity. 

Q. You know that what we call the extra ton 
had been brought in at the Erie Basin? A. Cer- 
tainly ; I saw it. 

Q. And set up on her deck or cabin floor, above 
where it was to be finally placed? A. I saw it 
there. 

Q. What part of the cabin floor was that? A. 
My impression is it was over the forward part of 
the cabin floor, or the after part of what we called 
the sail room floor. I should think probably the 
sail room floor. About amidships. 

Q. You went on the race that day and came back 
with the boat? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What time did the Defender get up to Bay 
Ridge? A. I think about eight o'clock. 

Q. Was it light or dark at that time? A. 
Dark. 

Q. What kind of a night was it? A clear or a 
dark night? A. A dark night. 

The Chairman : Do you wish to enquire 
any? 

Mr. Askwith : I will assist the Commission 
by asking a few questions, taking up the atti- 
tude which was suggested this morning. 

By Mr. Askwith : 

Q. What position have you held on the De- 
fender? A. No official position. A friend of Mr. 
Iselin. 

Q. You accompanied him in yacht races? A. I 
have for two years. 

Q. Both on the Vigilant and the Defender? A. 
Yes, sir ; on the Vigilant in 1893. 

Q. Had the Defender any tanks? 
Mr. Leeds: Water tanks? 
Mr. Askwith : Yes. 



228 



A. Yes, sir. You mean at the early part of the 
season ? 

Mr. AsTcwith: Yes. 
Mr. Leeds : Yes, sir. 
Q. Can you tell me their weight? 

Mr. Leeds : The weight of the tank itself? 
Mr. AsTcwith : Yes. Mr. Herreshoff has 
spoken of three tanks, I think. Can you tell 
me the weight of them ? 
A. No, I am not familiar with the weight. 

Q. Were those tanks taken out with the 7,000 
pounds weight that was taken out? A. My im- 
pression is that they were, at New Rochelle. 

Q. You do not know, to be certain? A. I did 
not see them taken out, but they were not there 
that day. 

By Mr. Clioate : 

Q. You mean on Friday? A. No. He means 
previously to that, Wednesday or Thursday, up at 
New Rochelle, I presume. 

By Mr. AsTcwith : 

Q. Yes, I think that is the time that you took 
out the furniture and htttings of the boat, was it 
not? A. She was stripped two or three days be- 
fore she was measured. 

Q. Three days before the race? A. Before she 
was measured. Wednesday or Thursday, I think, 
she was stripped. 

Q. Had she raced with those tanks previously 
in the course of the year? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Were they full or empty then? A. I think, 
as a rule, we carried a little water in them . 
Q. How were they supplied with water? 

Mr. Leeds : How do vou mean, how were 
they supplied? Fresh water, you mean, I 
presume ? 

Mr. AsTcwith : Yes. You do not know their 
size? 
A. I do not know how much they contained. 



229 



Q. Several questions were asked of Lord Dun- 
raven and Mr. Grlennie with regard to the trial 
races, of which they knew nothing, — as to whether 
information had been given to them about the trial 
races. Had there been any complaint of the De- 
fender in the trial races? A. I never heard of it. 

Q. You do not know? A. I do not know of any. 

Q. Neither did they. When you examined this 
lead — when was it? A. I said I could not tell you 
that. 

Q. You also said you could not say exactly how 
much there was? A. Certainly not. 

Q. The lead was in half pigs? A. Yes, sir. The 
lead was in pigs cut in two. 

Q. Roughly cut in two? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Without counting them it was very difficult 
to estimate how much was exactly there? A. To 
estimate exactly, certainly. 

Q. Did you go on board in the morning on Sat- 
urday? A. Yes, sir; the morning of the first race, 
you mean? 

Mr. Aslcwith : Yes. 
Mr. Leeds : Yes, sir. 

Q. About eight o'clock? A. I should think 
shortly after that. 

Q. Had you left the boat previously to that, at 
the same time Mr. Herreshoff did? A. Yes, sir; 
precisely. 

Q. From New Rochelle? A. No. 

Q. I thought he said that he left at New Rochelle ? 
A. He was on board when they measured her on 
Friday. 

Mr. Choate : He came down to the Erie 
Basin on Friday morning, he said. 

Q. Had you been present at that measurement? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Had you been present between the time the 
furniture and the tanks were being taken out at 
New Rochelle and the first measurement? Had 
you been on board the boat? A. Yes, sir. 



230 



Q. You had? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Had you come down on the boat? A. No; I 
came down, I think, on the Neckan. 

Q. What is the Neckan, a tug? A. No, just a 
yacht Mr. Iselin had. 

Q. How long had you been on the Neckan? A. 
Practically all summer. 

Q. We are at cross purposes, I think. I am ask- 
ing you, between the time when the furniture was 
taken out at New Rochelle and the time when the 
first measurement was had, at Erie Basin, were you 
on the Defender during that time? A. I was on the 
Defender, I think, on Thursday afternoon when she 
went for a sail from New Rochelle. That is my 
impression. 

Q. On Thursday afternoon? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. When did she leave New Rochelle? A. She 
left New Rochelle Friday morning. 

Q. Did she come down straight to Erie Basin? 
A. She went straight down, yes, sir. I think she 
left early in the morning, and we left on the steam 
yacht. 

Q. Had she been a long time at New Rochelle 
before Thursday? A. I do not recollect. 

Q. How long before you started down to the 
measurement had the ballast in the shape of tanks 
and furniture been taken out of her? A. I think 
it was only completed the day before we went 
down. 

Q. On Thursday? A. I would not state that 
positively. I think it was completed on Thursday. 

Q. How long was your sail on Thursday? A. 
Thursday afternoon — I could not state exactly. 

Q. You do not remember? A. No. 

Q. When was the furniture taken out? A. I 
think on those preceding days. 

Q. Before or after the sailing? A. Before. 

Q. Did you sail with her perfectly light? What 
had she in her? Any ballast? A. My impression 



231 



is that it was two tons of ballast. I did not look to 
see. 

Q. You do not know? A. No. 

Q. You do not know whether it was lead, or what 
it was? A. I did not look to see. 

Q. Was that sail a sort of trial, to see how she 
went? A. No. It was to try the sails. 

Q. Do you often alter a boat two days before an 
important race by changing the form of her ballast ? 
A. I do not alter any boat. 

Q, You are not responsible for anything of that 
kind? A. No. 

Q. When did Mr. Iselin acquire the habit of 
examining the interior of the boats? A. That I 
could not tell you. 

Q. Had he always done it, in all of the important 
races that the Defender had been in? A. I should 
say almost invariably. 

Q. Perhaps I had better ask this : Do you sup- 
pose that he acquired that habit and began that 
practice because he suspected that there might be 
such a thing as ramping habits? A. I don't know 
what it means. 

Q. You have heard of ramping horses, surely? 
It is a well-known term. A. I am not familiar 
with the expression. 

Mr. Choate: What does that mean? 

Mr. Askwith: Preparing them, in a way, 

such as 

Mr. Choate: As you suspect here? 

Q. Do you think he thought there might be a 
possibility of a fraud? A. I do not think so. 

Q. That was not his object? A. I do not think 
so. 

Q. Where were you when you say that you 
noticed this list to starboard of the Defender? A. 
On the naphtha launch. 

Q. At what time? A. About half an hour or an 
hour before she was measured. 

Q. When was she measured? A. On Friday. 



232 



Q. What time? A. I could not tell you. I 
think it was somewheres along one or two o'clock. 

Q. When you came down in the morning, you 
went on board about half -past eight, you say? A. 
That is Saturday I am talking about now. She was 
measured Friday. 

Q. When you came down to the measurement 
on Friday was not the time that you came 
down at half - past eight, that was Saturday. 
You came down to the measurement on Friday at 
one or two? Was that the day that you noticed 
the list? A. No; it was the day of the measure- 
ment — on Friday. 

Q. Before she was measured? A. Yes, sir. 

By Mr. Choate : 

Q. In the Erie Basin? A. In the Erie Basin. It 
has nothing to do with Saturday. 

By Mr. Askwith : 

Q. You state you made a remark to Mr. Iselin 
about it? A. I certainly did. 

Q. But you do not know of yourself whether 
anything was done or not? A. My answer is, my 
impression was that the boom was flung over. I 
do not remember. I remember making the re- 
mark. 

Q. The vessel, when it was measured, would 
have to be measured true? A. Yes, sir. You 
say it would have to be — I suppose she should be. 
Q. Can you answer, as an experienced yachts- 
man, this question : If the trim was merely altered, 
the vessel put two inches or one inch by the head, 
how much would that lengthen her water line? 
A. It would depend on the vessel, I should think. 
Mr. AsJcwith : Take a vessel of the profile 
of the Defender. 

Mr. Leeds : If she was an inch or two by 
the head? 

Mr. Aslcwitli : Yes ; two inches, or an inch 
by the head. 



233 



Mr. Leeds : I should not think it would 

make any perceptible difference in the length 

of her water line. If she came out that amount 

by the stern, I suppose you mean? 

Q. How much would it be if it was put three or 

four inches by the stern ? 

Mr. Leeds: And the bow coming out three 
or four inches ? 
Mr. Askwith: Yes. 
A. I am not familiar with the lines as they run 
there ; I do not know. 

Q. In fact, you have simply got your experience 
in yacht racing in company with Mr. Iselin, as a 
friend? A. Exactly. 

Mr. AsTcwith: I think those are the only 
questions I wish to ask. 

Mr. Choate: Mr. Askwith, Mr. Herreshoff is, 
for personal reasons, very desirous of return- 
ing to his home in Bristol to-night, if you could 
possibly cross-examine him. 

Mr. Askwith: I am afraid I cannot ask the 
questions. I have not followed his evidence 
with that in view, and it requires careful ex- 
amination. 

Mr. Choate: We will call Mr. DeLuze. 

Louis P. DeLuze, being called as a witness on 
behalf of Mr. Iselin, testified as follows : 

Direct examination by Mr. Choate: 

Q. What is your business? A. Civil engineer 
and surveyor. 

Q. Are you acquainted with the yacht Defender? 
A. I am, slightly. 

Q. Since her water line was marked on Septem- 
ber 8th, have you seen her? A. I have. 

Q. Where did you examine her? A. Up at New 
Rochelle, where she lays at present. 

Q. Did you find clearly marked the mark upon 
her stem? A. I did. 



234 

Q. And also did you find the disc upon each of 
her sides? A. I did. 

Q. How far aft were the discs? Aft of amid- 
ships? A. They were aft of amidships, I should 
say, yes, sir. The distance is on here (indicating). 

Q. Did you draw a line from the mark upon her 
stem to the base of the disc on the port side or the 
starboard side? A. Well, I did not draw a line. 
I estimated the relative distance above the surface 
of the present water. 

Q. Did you make a drawing to show where that 
line would come upon her side? A, I have. 

Q. Have you got that here? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Is it the same one that was produced yester- 
day? A. The same one. 

Q. This is the port side (showing a diagram). 
This is the one, I think, that was produced yester- 
day? A. There are two of them alike. 

Q. This represents the disc? A. It does. 

Q. How far aft of amidships was that? A. That 
is a distance from the bow of 58.62 feet, from the 
water line on the bow. 

Q. From the water line of 88 or 89 feet? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. And how far aft of the pipe which has been 
described here — of the escape pipe — was that? A. 
The escape is on the bow side of the disc, five feet 
and eight inches and five-eighths away from the 
discs ; from the edge of the pipe to the edge of the 
disc. 

Q. What did you find to be the fact with refer- 
ence to the position of the escape pipe on the port 
side, with the water line, say, projected from the 
mark upon the stem to the base of the disc? A. I 
found a pipe -^ of an inch below the surface of the 
water. 

Q. The top or bottom of the pipe? A. The top 
of the pipe ; that is on the port side. 

Q. On the port side? Did you also make the 
same on the starboard side? A. I did. 



235 



Q. You projected the true line, did you, from the 
mark on the stem to the base of the disc? A. I 
did. 

Q. And there is a pipe outlet on that side also, 
is there not? A. There is. 

Q. How did you find that pipe outlet to lie with 
reference to the water line so projected? A. I 
found the top of that pipe to be one inch and fj- 
of an inch below the surface of what would be 
called the racing water line. 

Q. And these two drawings truly represent the 
results of your examination? A. They do, to the 
best of my ability. They are on the natural scale. 

Q. Did you also make this drawing? A. Yes, 
sir ; I did. 

Q. What is that? A. That represents the bow 

of the Defender, sketched in where the bobstay 

plates, and the red mark of the bow as it stands at 
present at the water line. 

Q. That is what I have called the mark on the 
stem? A. Yes, sir. This is the bobstay plate. 
The bobstay comes out here. This is the sketch 
of the bow (indicating). 

By Mr. Askwith : 

Q. What is the distance you have there between 
the bobstay plate and the red mark? 

Mr. BeLuze : Vertically down? 
Mr. AsTcwith : No, along there. 

A. This is 5 feet and f inches down to about the 
line where the bobstay plate intersects the base of 
the bow. 

Q. But how much is that? A. I could not tell 
you exactly what it was in that sloping distance. 

By Mr. Choate : 

Q. That is where the mark is on what I have 
called, perha,ps incorrectly, the stem of the vessel, 
is it? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How high above the level of that mark is the 



236 



bobstay plate or iron, as we call it? A. I don't 
know how far it is above the level, but above the 
line joining the bottom of the disc — the average 
bottom of both discs — the two discs have different 
elevations, a little — at the junction of the bottom 
of the plate is 12J inches. The extreme is 12^ 
above what is called the racing water line. It is 
about on the starboard side — I think it was an inch 
wide, and the port side, perhaps an inch and a half 
wide, and perhaps 10 or 11 inches long. The bot- 
tom of it indicates the water line right here (indi- 
cating). 

By Capt. Mahan : 

Q. Your plan does not lay down, as far as I have 
seen this water line, this mark? A. JSTo; this is 
the natural scale. This represents her only seven 
feet, and I would have to go from that about 58 
feet to get to the bow at all. This is the natural 
scale. 

Q. So that the water line A. It would be 

just about eight times that distance. 

Q. This line was projected to that line? A. 
Yes, sir; this line produced would strike this 
mark (indicating). 

By Mr. Choate : 

Q. This section is the actual length and corre- 
sponds to a similar length on the vessel? A. Yes, 
sir ; if you laid this over the side of the vessel it 
would correspond with it. It is what you call the 
natural scale. 

By Capt. Mahan : 

Q. What does that date represent, marked De- 
cember 18, 1895? A. That represents the date on 
which I took the measurement. 

By Mr. Aslcwith : 

Q. Where is she now? 

Mr. DeLuze : Where is the Defender? 

Mr. Askioith: Yes. 

Mr. DeLuze : At New Eochelle. 



237 



Q. In Winter quarters ? A. In Winter quarters, 
lying between Starin Island and Neptune House 
Island. 

Q. Do you know what ballast she has in her? 
A. I walked over her floor and I did not see any 
in her. 

Q. Did you see her on September 7th? A. I could 
not say whether I did or not. 

Q. Did you see her at the time she was measured 
on September 7th? A. No; I did not. 

By Capt. MaJtan : 

Q. Are there any other pipe holes than that one 
on each side? A. Yes, sir; there are on the star- 
board side two more, and one on the port side, that 
I noticed. 

Q. What is their general situation? A. Much 
lower down than this. I figured out what they 
were. 

By Mr. Choate : 

Q. How much farther forward or aft than this 
(indicating)? A. On the starboard side, ten and a 
half feet further than the discs. 

Q. And on the port side? A. On the port side 
it is 15.11 further on than the scupper hole. 

Q. Further on from the disc? A. Yes, sir. 
On the starboard side I made the top of them 3-fy 
inches below the racing water surface, and on the 
port side I made it 1-JJ inches below the racing sur- 
face, so that they are considerably below the one 
in question. 

By Mr. AsJcwith : 

Q. Are you aware whether, when you measured 
her here in New Eochelle, her trim corresponded 
with that which she had on September 7th? A. I 
have no idea. I do not suppose it does, because 
she is stripped of everything, spars, boom, and 
everything, now. 

Q. Let me get the exact words you used in 



238 



regard to the survey you made. Is this correct, 
that you estimated the relative difference from the 
line of water in projecting that line? 

Mr. DeLuze : This upper line, you mean? 
(indicating). 

Mr. Aslcwith : Was that what you said? 
Were those your words? 
A. I do not recollect. 

By Mr. Rives : 

Q. This lower blue line represents the lower 
water line? A. That represents the water line of 
December 18 (indicating). 

Q. The bottom of this disc is now, therefore, 6£ 
inches above the water level? A. Six and a half 
inches, measured along the plate, which bends in 
slightly. The red figure shows the vertical meas- 
urement. Vertically it is 5-J- inches, which I used 
in the calculation of this racing water line. 

Q. How much out of water is the red mark on 
the bow? A. Two and one quarter inches. 

Q. Out of water? A. Yes, sir. At the time 
these measurements were taken. 

By Mr. Aslcwith : 

Q. Is there on this plan here shown any plate 
landing between the water line and the bobstay? 

Mr. DeLuze: What do you call a "plate 
landing"? 

Q. The boat is built in plates here, is it not? A. 
Yes, sir; I could not tell you where any joints 
were at all. 

Q. You did not mark that? A. No, I did not 
note that at all. 

Q. You do not know the distance between the 
end of that plate landing and the water line? A. 
No, I do not, at all. 

Q. And the distance between it and the bobstay? 
It is all painted, as I recollect, above the water 
line. There is no plate mark visible, except where 
the junction of the aluminum is with the bronze 
plate. 



239 



By Mr. Choate : 

Q. Perhaps you can answer this question. I 
inferred from your statements already made, that 
if the Defender were put back into the water now, 
trimmed and ballasted as she was when those 
marks were affixed as marking the water line — 
the disc and the mark on the bow — the water 
line would be a fraction of an inch above the 
top of the escape pipe? A. Yes, sir; it would be 
on the starboard side Iff of an inch, as I said, and 
on the port side ■£%■ of an inch under water ; the 
top of the pipe would, provided there was no sag- 
ging of the boat. 

By Mr. AsJcwith ; 

Q. Could you emphatically say that, unless you 
knew that the vessel was trimmed in exactly the 
same way? A. Well, if the vessel is brought down 
to the bottom of those discs and to the red mark 
on the bow, what I said is correct, to the best of 
my ability. 

Q. Are you a marine engineer? A. I have done 
considerable hydrographical work. 

Q. How would it be, supposing, as you say, she 
was put in this position, if she was down by the 
stern, for instance? Would that keep the position 
of your water line in the same place? 

Mr. DeLuze : If she was down by the stern, 
you mean, and the bow going up? Or staying 
where it would be at the red mark? 

Q. If she were down by the stern, as you made 
this plan, would this water line remain correct? A. 
]STo ; if she were down by the stern. That is, if she 
were down by the stern, bringing the water line 
below the bottom of the disc. 

By Mr. Rives : 

Q. Above, you mean, do you not? A. Yes, sir, 
if she were pressed down at the stern so that the 
water line would be above the bottom line of the 
disc. 



240 



By Mr. Askwiih : 

Q. You are not aware whether, according to the 
design of the designer, it was intended that these 
pipes should be above the level of the water? A. 
I could not say. There are some pipes much fur- 
ther down, and I do not suppose it makes any 
relative difference. 

By Mr. Whitney ; 

Q. As I understand you, by taking the bottom 
of the disc and the mark on the bow you get 
mathematically her actual trim as it was when she 
was measured? A. I suppose so. I get the cor- 
rect line when she is brought down to those marks. 
Of course the marks are all I know anything about. 
I do not know anything about how she stood at 
the measurement. 

Q. Assuming that those marks are genuine, you 
get her actual water line as she was when she was 
measured? A. That is, if, in loading her down, 
there is no shifting of her hulk ; no twisting or 
anything like that. 

By Mr. Hives : 

Q. No bending? A. No bending; I do not sup- 
pose there would be. 

Q. The result of that would be, bringing the 
water pipe down below that? A. Yes, sir. 

By Mr. Clioate : 

Q. If she was down by the stern, as has been sug- 
gested by Mr. Askwith, the water line would rise 
upon the disc, would it not? 

Mr. DeLuze : And the bow remaining the 
same? 

Mr. Choate : Yes. 
A. The pipe would be still further under water. 
Mr. Clioate : We will now call Mr. Iselin. 



241 



C. Oliver Iselin, being called as a witness in 
his own behalf, testified as follows : 

Examined by Mr. Choate : 

Q. You were one of the owners of the Defender, 
with Mr. Morgan and Mr. Vanderbilt, I believe? 
A. Yes. 

Q. And by arrangement with them her entire 
management was left with you? A. Entirely. 

Q. During the whole Summer? A. During the 
trial races and the Cup races ; also the building of 
the boat. 

Q. Before I go into your examination on other 
matters, I wish to know when you first heard that 
Lord Dunraven had made any complaint about the 
Defender? A. It was on the 25th day of October 
I heard that first ; I read it in the paper. 

Q. October or September? A. I read it in the 
paper in October. 

Q. That was after the report of the Cup Com- 
mittee to the Yacht Ciub? A. Yes; the next day. 

Q. You had heard nothing on that subject from 
either the Cup Committee or from Mr. Fish? A. 
Absolutely nothing. 

By Capt. Mohan : 

Q. That is with reference to this particular point 
we are speaking of? A. Yes. 

Mr. Choate : Yes. The complaint that Lord 
Dunraven made to Mr. Fish. 

By Mr. Choate : 

Q. How and when did you learn that there was 
to be a re-measurement on Sunday, the 8th day of 
September? A. I heard of it on Friday afternoon, 
on September 6th. I heard there was to be a re- 
marking — a marking. 

Q. My question was when and how you first 
heard there was to be a re-measurement on Sunday? 
A. I heard of that Sunday morning. 



242 



Q. Over at the Erie Basin? A. At the Erie 
Basin. 

Q. How came you at the Erie Basin that Sunday 
morning? A. I was told on Friday, just after the 
measurement, by either Mr. Canfield or Mr. Rogers, 
I cannot remember which one, that the boat would 
be marked on Sunday morning. That is the reason 
I appeared there. 

Q. And you went from your home in New 
Rochelle down to Erie Basin to attend to the mark- 
ing, did you? A. No; I did not go from my 
home. 

Q. From New York? A. I went from Bay 
Ridge. I slept on the Neckan Saturday night. 

Q. From whom did you learn, after you got over 
there, that there was to be a re-measurement? A. 
I cannot state who told me. 

Q. And the marking you saw done as a result or 
an accompaniment of the re-measurement? A. I 
did not see the marking done. 

Q. You did not wait for that? A. Yes, I waited, 
but I could not see it. I was sitting on the deck 
amidships. 

Q. You knew it was being done? A. I knew it 
was being done. 

Q. We will go back now to the beginning of the 
matter. You ordered the building of this boat 
through Mr. Herreshoff? A. Yes. 

Q. Was anything arranged between you as to 
the general plan or theory upon which she should 
be built, in respect to her load water line? A. 
Yes. 

Q. In relation to the terms of the deed under 
which the Cup was held? A. She was designed to 
conform with the deed ; and we agreed that we had 
better make her 89 feet water line, so as to have a 
foot margin in case we wanted to use more ballast 
or wanted to make a difference in the trim, in case 
the immersion was greater than we expected. We 
designed her to be 89 feet. 



243 



Q. As appears she came within about half a foot 
of that? A. Yes; when she sailed. 

Q. How many trial races were there in the Sum- 
mer between her and the Vigilant? 

Mr. Iselin: What do you mean by " trial 
races ' ' ? 

Mr. Choate : I thought she raced with the 
Vigilant three times, did she not? 

Mr. Iselin : She raced a great many more 
than that. 
Q. Under the auspices of the New York Yacht 
Club? A. Yes. 

Q. How many were there ? A.I think eight races 
besides the trial races. 

Q. Through how long a period prior to the end 
of August? A. From some time in July she was 
racing. She raced in July. She had two races 
with the Vigilant in July, and then she went v on a 
cruise with the New York Yacht Club, and was 
racing about ten days nearly every day from port 
to port, and also racing for the Citizens' Cup and 
others. 

Q. When were you notified by the Club that she 
had been selected to race with the English yacht? 
A. After the trial races with the Vigilant down 
the Bay. 

Q. After the last of those? A. After the last of 
them. 

Q. During all of these races prior to that time, 
did she carry any ballast, and if any what? 
Mr. Iselin: Prior to what? 
Mr. Choate : Prior to her being selected to 
race with the Valkyrie. 
A. She carried absolutely none. Not a pound of 
ballast. Of loose ballast I mean. 

Q. What was there in her that weighed which 
could betaken out? A. There was a water tank, 
bilge tank, large ice-box, stove, cooking uten- 
sils, cabin fixtures, partitions, bedding, all the 



244 



linen, crockery, men's clothes, my apparel and my 
friends' apparel on board. That is about all. 

Q. After the arrival of the Valkyrie, did yon 
learn that she was practically stripped of all those 
things? A. I did. 

Q. And did yon have a conference with Mr. 
Herreshoff in consequence? A. I did. 

Q. With what result? A. The result was we 
decided to strip the Defender to be on equal terms 
with the Valkyrie. 

Q. And for that purpose where was she taken? 
A. She was not taken for that special purpose any- 
where. She happened to be at New Rochelle. 

Q. When you so decided? A. Yes. 

Q. How long was that before the Friday, the 6th 
of September? A. That was on Tuesday and 
Wednesday and Thursday, just before the 7th of 
September. 

Q. Were you up at New Rochelle while she was 
being stripped of all those things? A. I was. 

Q. Did you see that they were all taken out of 
her? A. I did. 

Q. Did you provide for the weighing of those 
things? A. I did. 

Q. What had been planned or arranged or advised 
between you and Mr. Herreshoff, to take the place 
of this weight so taken out, and what was the 
weight so taken out, as you were informed? A. 
We did not expect there would be quite as much 
weight to come out of her as did, as appeared by 
weighing. So we decided to order two tons of lead 
to be sent from New York, to take the place of the 
cabin fixtures and other thiDgs. 

Q. Thinking that would be enough ? A. Thinking 
that would about counterbalance what was taken 
out ; and that lead was sent up to New Rochelle. 

Q. That was in the form of pigs of about one 
hundred pounds weight to the pig? A. Yes; 
there were two tons, forty-two pigs. 

Q. How did you procure that? A. I told my 



245 



friend, Mr. Thorne. He was one of my friends on 
the Defender, and sailed with me all Summer; 
and I asked him to order it for me in New York. 

Q. Of any particular house? A. I did not state 
to him any particular house, no. I asked him to 
order the lead. 

Q. Do you know from whom it was purchased? 
A. Yes ; I know now. Mayor, Lane & Company. 

Q. Is this the bill? A. That is one of the re- 
ceipted bills. 

Q. That is the bill for the forty-two pigs? A. 
Forty-two pigs. 

Q. This bill is a bill made out to A. Iselin & 
Company — that is your father's firm? A. Yes. 

Q. " Forty-two pigs, prime pig lead, 4,045 
pounds, at $3.75, $151.69." Cartage added. "Ship 
to C. Oliver Iselin, Yacht Defender, New Rochelle, 
via Steamer Mary Gordon. Ordered by N. B. 
Thorne." The date of the bill is September 4th? 
A. Yes. 

Q. That weighed 4,045 pounds? A. Yes. 

Q. When was this shifting done? A. Taking 
these things out? That was done on Tuesday, 
Wednesday and Thursday before the Cup races. 

Q. What was the result of the weighing of what 
was taken out? A. We took about 7,000 pounds 
out, all told. 

Q. And you had only got 4,045 to substitute for 
it? What did you do on that? A. I did not think 
I had substituted enough, so Mr. Herreshoff and I 
decided we had better order another ton. 

Q. Did you do so? A. I did so, by wire. 

Q. From the same house? A. From the same 
house. I ordered it by wire. My wire was to Mr. 
Thorne. 

Q. And on the same day did you purchase from 
the same house twenty- one pigs more? A. I did. 

Q. Where was that to be delivered ? A. That was 
to be delivered at the Erie Basin on Friday morning. 



246 

Q. To await the Defender when she came down? 
A. Yes. 

Mr. Choate : This bill is dated September 5, 
1895: "Sold to A. Iselin & Company, 21 
pigs prime pig lead, 2,015, at $3.75, $75.56; 
cartage and ferriage added; addressed to C. 
Oliver Iselin, Yacht Defender, Erie Basin 
Dock." 

Q. That having been done, on the 4th and 5th 
apparently, the second purchase on the 5th, when 
did the Defender leave New Rochelle for the Erie 
Basin? A. She left on Friday morning, the 6th. 

Q. How did you come from your home in New 
Rochelle to the Erie Basin? A. I came on the 
steam yacht Neckan. 

Q. Chartered by you for the occasion? A. Char- 
tered by me to live on. Previous to that I had 
lived on the Defender during all the races. 

Q. And you came from New Rochelle on Friday 
morning down to the Erie Basin? A. Yes. 

Q. What time did you reach the Erie Basin? A. 
As nearly as I can say, it was about twelve o'clock. 

Q. Did you learn that the Valkyrie had then 
been already measured? A. No, she had not. The 
measurement, as I recollect it, was not completed. 

Q. How soon after you arrived there did the 
measuring of the Defender take place? A. I should 
say about one hour. 

Q. It began about that time? A. It may be a 
little more. 

Q. Do you remember anything passing between 
you and Mr. Leeds prior to that? A. I remember 
his saying to me that the boat had a slight list to 
starboard. 

Q. Was anything said about the boom being put 
over? A. He said he thought the boom ought to 
be put over or something done. 

Q. Did you give any direction in consequence of 
that, or was anything done that you remember? A. 
No. I cannot recollect whether the boom was 



247 



moved or not. I know the boat was put on a per- 
fectly even keel when she was measured. 

Q. She was on an even keel when she was meas- 
ured? A. Yes. 

Q. How do you know that, otherwise than that 
it is usual or necessary? A. Because I have a tell- 
tale on deck to tell me that. 

Q. You saw that telltale? A. I did. 

Q. You were on deck all the time she was being 
measured? A. I was on deck all the time she was 
being measured. 

Q. At that time you observed by this telltale 
that she was on an even keel? A. Not the time she 
was being measured. Just before. Because, when 
she was being measured, I had to sit in one posi- 
tion ; but just before, I was looking at the telltale 
to see whether she was level or not. 

Q. When you got there, had the additional ton 
of lead, twenty-one pigs of lead, been already 
placed on board her? A. No, they had not been. 

Q. Did they arrive after you got there? A. No; 
they were waiting there for me ; they were on the 
dock on the truck. 

Q. You saw them placed on the Defender? A. I 
did. 

Q. Where were they placed? A. On the cabin 
floor, about amidships, or a little aft of it. 

Q. Do you know of any other lead than that being 
put upon the yacht at that time, to the end of the 
races? A. I do not. 

Q. You procured none? A. I procured none. 

Q. You ordered none? A. I ordered none. 

Q. How long did you stay by after the measuring 
of the Defender had been completed? 

Mr. Iselin : Stay on the Defender? 
Mr. Choate : Stay there or in the Erie Basin? 
A. I stayed on the Defender a very short time, be- 
cause it was late and I wanted my lunch, and I 
went to the Neckan that was lying on the other side 
of her. I was sitting in the cabin on deck where I 



248 



could see the Defender while she was lying there, 
while I was eating my lunch. 

Q. By that time had the Valkyrie left the Basin? 
A. At the time I had my lunch, yes. 

Q. Do you remember meeting Mr. Rogers and 
Mr. Canfield? A. Yes; I do remember meeting 
them. 

Q. You remember their going over there? A. 
Yes ; I remember that perfectly. 

Q. What passed between you and them? A. 

They told me 

Mr. Choate : I refer to the marking of the 
vessels. 
A. (Continued.) They said at the time that Lord 
Dunraven wanted the water lines marked, and 
asked me whether I would agree to that. I an- 
swered, as near as I can remember, it would be per- 
fectly satisfactory to me, and I would be pleased 
to have it done. 

Q. But the Valkyrie was not there at the time 
to be marked? A. The Valkyrie had gone out. 
So they told me we would have to return on Sun- 
day morning. 

Q. Did you hear anything about the tides, or 
anything preventing the Valkyrie coming back that 
day? A. Yes. I heard, not from them, but from 
the Valkyrie people, who asked to get out. They 
were inside of us. Some of our ropes interfered 
with their getting out, and they said they wanted 
to hurry out on account of the tide. I think it was 
Mr. Kersey who stated that to me, and suggested 
my going out with the Defender, too. 

Q. At this time state how you had officered and 
manned the Defender. The same officers and crew 
that had been with her all Summer? A. Yes; the 
same officers and same crew, with the exception 
of one or two sailors. There were also sailmakers 
who had been with her all the Summer. 

Q. Captain Haff had sailed her during all these 
trial races? A. Yes. 



249 



Q. And the same mates and quarter-masters? A. 

Yes; the same no, there was a change, in 

the quarter-masters during the Summer. One 
quarter-master was taken ill, and we only had two 
quarter-masters the first part of the season, and 
we afterwards had four ; but two of the quarter- 
masters were taken out of the crew. 

Q. For those places had you selected competent 
and experienced men, as you supposed? A. I se- 
lected the best men I could find in this country, to 
the best of my knowledge. 

Q. You left the Defender that afternoon, I sup- 
pose? A. Yes; I left her after the measurement. 

Q. Did you make any further examination of 
her than you have already stated? Did you see 
the twenty -one pigs of lead after they were brought 
on board? A. I did. 

Q. You say they were on the cabin floor? A. 
Yes. I also examined the hold. 

Q. You examined the hold that day? A. I did 
examine the hold, before the measurement. 
Mr. Choate : I did not know that. 
Mr. Iselin : I also examined the hold at 
New Rochelle before she came to Erie Basin, 
after the stowing of the ballast. 

Q. Will you state what you found in the hold 
at New Rochelle and at the Erie Basin, before she 
was measured? A. I found the two tons in New 
Rochelle, and I examined it, because I wanted 
to see that it was properly stowed; and when 
she arrived at the Erie Basin I examined the 
hold then, to see whether there was any water in 
her. There was a slight leak in the boat, and I 
was so very particular about having every drop of 
water taken out that I used to have men go down into 
her with buckets and a sponge to sponge every drop 
of water out, not only in the keel of the boat, but also 
in the lazarette. There was a slight leak in the rudder 
post, and in the morning there were six to eight 
buckets of water that came out of the lazarette. I 



250 



was most particular about having every drop of 
water out of the boat at all times. 

Q. When you examined her before the measure- 
ment on Friday, what lead did you find in her? 
A. I found two tons. 

Q. And on the cabin floor the twenty-one pigs? 
A. On the cabin floor the twenty-one pigs. 

Q. Where did you spend that night, Friday? 
A. I spent it on the Neckan, at the Horseshoe. 

Q. How far away from where the Defender was? 
A. A good way off. It was rough that night going 
down. So much so that I went in close to the 
Government Docks, so as to avoid any rolling 
around at night. 

Q. You were not near enough to hear or see any- 
thing going on in the Defender that night? A. 
No, I was not. 

Q. How did you get aboard of her, and at what 
time on the morning of Saturday? A. I came 
aboard the Defender in my launch about eight 
o'clock, as nearly as I can judge. 

Q. Who went with you? A. Mr. Thorne, Mr. 
Leeds, Mr. Herreshoff and Mr. Butler Duncan and 
Mr. Kane and no others. 

Q. Those gentlemen accompanied you on the 
race? A. Yes. 

Q. They came for that purpose? A. Yes. They 
had been racing with me all Summer. 

Q. It has been stated by Mr. Leeds as about 
half -past eight. Is that the way you recollect it? 
A. No, I think it was nearer eight o'clock. 

Q. You think it was earlier ; about eight o'clock? 
A. Yes; about eight. 

Q. How was the vessel lying at that time — I 
mean to say, the Defender — as to motion what was 
the condition of the water and the state of the 
wind? A. The wind was light from the eastward, 
with a slight swell and a slight motion. 

Q. The vessel did not lie perfectly still in the 
water? A. Not perfectly still. 



251 



Q. Was there a motion both ways, do you think? 
I mean to say, did she roll and pitch both? A. 
No, I think there was a little roll to her. I did 
not notice any pitching. 

Q. There was some motion? A. Some slight 
motion, but the motion was very slight indeed. 

Q. You were very familiar by this time with the 
Defender? A. Yes. 

Q. Did you observe that she lay any lower in 
the water than when she was measured in the Erie 
Basin the day before? A. I did not. 

Q. How long was it after you got on board that 
Lord Dunraven put Mr. Henderson on board? A. 
I should say it was very nearly one hour after — 
somewhere near nine o'clock, I think, when he came. 

Q. During this hour what had you been doing? 
A. As soon as I came on board, I asked Capt. Haff 
how that twenty-one pigs had been stowed, I 
wanted to see it, and I went below with Mr. 
Herreshoff and Capt. Haff, and examined the hold, 
and saw that the lead had been properly stowed. 

Q. As the weather was that morning, what were 
the best chances for your boat in the race — to be 
as light as she could be or as heavy? A. As light, 
in my opinion. 

Q. That is what you thought? A. Yes. 

Q. You and Capt. Half and Mr. Herreshoff made 
this examination to see whether the lead had been 
properly packed? A. Yes. 

Q. What did you find when the floor was taken 
up? A. I looked down and asked Capt. Haff just 
where he had put the lead, and he pointed to 
where the lead had been put, and I could see that it 
was there. 

Q. Could you see that there was any considerable 
quantity? If there had been, more than the three 
tons, would you have seen it? A. Yes, sir; if there 
had been any considerable quantity more. 

Q. But there was none beyond that? A. No, 
none that I could see. There was none there. 



252 



Q. What precautions did you take that morning 
as to water being out of the vessel? A. I asked 
the carpenter, who was in the habit of doing that 
sort of thing for me, to measure the water in the 
hold, which he did in my presence, with a stick that 
was kept for that purpose. The stick was kept 
under the cabin floor. 

Q. Is that through a sort of hatch-way? A. 
There is a little hatch, just at the bottom of the 
companion way as you go into the cabin. 

Q. What was the result of the examination for 
water? A. The carpenter reported that there was 
no water in it, and not only reported, but I looked 
down and could see that there was no water in it. 

Q. Did you have the bilge sponged out, as you 
say? A. I did not have the bilge sponged out. 

Q. There was no occasion for it? A. Not the 
bilge; but the other part of the vessel I had 
sponged out. 

Q. You know perfectly well what there was in 
the vessel that day, do you not, besides the officers 
and crew and yourself and your friends? A. Yes. 

Q. Was there anything except this three tons of 
lead? A. Nothing except the sails ; no ballast. 

Q. Of course I do not mean the parts of the ves- 
sel ; but none of those things that had been taken 
out at New Rochelle had been carried back into the 
vessel? A. None. 

Q. What did you do about water? Were you 
going on that day's race without any water? A. 
We had a milk can on board ; one of those large 
milk cans. 

Q. One of those large forty-quart milk cans? A. 
Forty-quart can they called it ; holding forty quarts. 

Q. That was all the water you had? A. That 
was all the water. 

Q. You sailed the race. Now, was there any 
communication at all to the Defender on her way 
up to Bay Ridge? Any communication made? 
Mr. Iselin : By the Committee? 



253 



Mr. Choate : By anybody, yes? 
A. Yes ; some one came aboard of her — not aboard 
of her, but came alongside of her, and handed me 
a horseshoe of flowers, just after I crossed the 
winning line. 

Q. But I mean, was there any communication 
about the race or about the boat, or that she was to 
appear at any place for re-measurement, or any- 
thing of that sort? A. None. 

Q. It was after you got up, was it, that you heard? 
You did not hear anything, did you? A. On Sat- 
urday night I did not hear anything. I do not re- 
member hearing anything about a re-measurement 
until Sunday morning. 

Q. Where did you go on Saturday night? A. 
We lay off Bay Ridge, close to the Defender. 

By Mr. Rives : 

Q. There was a crowd of vessels up there at Bay 
Ridge that night, I suppose, was there not? A. 
Yes ; a great many vessels. 

By Mr. Choate i 

Q. What time did you get up? Was it after 
dark, or before? A. After dark. 

Q. It was too late to have the vessel re-measured 
that night, do you think? A. In my opinion, yes. 

Q. Did you ever know of any measurements by 
night, in the dark? Did you ever know of the 
measurement of any vessel or yacht? A. No, I 
never heard of any. 

Q. You attended on the re-measurement on Sun- 
day, did you? A. Yes. 

Q. Were you on board the Defender then? A. 
Yes. 

Q. You made no special examination of her then, 
I suppose? A. Yes, I did. 

Q. What did you do? A. I had the floor taken 
up and examined the hold. 

Q. What did you find? A. I found practically 
three tons of lead there, as far as I could see. 



254 



Q. The same appearance as she presented just 
before the previous measurement? A. Yes. 

Q. And just before the race? A. Yes. 

Q. To your knowledge had anything been taken 
out of her or let out of her in any way from the 
time she started on the race until then? A. JSTo th- 
ing, to my knowledge. 

Q. You are quite an experienced yachtsman. 
You had occasion to signal a protest on the second 
day's race, had you not? A. Yes. 

Q. Because of the foul? A. Yes. 

Q. Do you know of anything that could have 
prevented Lord. Dunraven, on the previous day's 
race, on Saturday, signaling a protest about this 
subject that he complained of — the deeper immer- 
sion of the Defender? A. No, I see no reason why 
he should not have done so. 

Q. Would it have been entirely within the rules? 
A. Entirely. 

Q. I mean, for him to signal his protest, and 
nevertheless sail the race that day ? A. Entirely. 

Q. And it would have saved all this racket? A. 
All. 

Q. Did you examine the marks after they were 
made on the Sunday? 

Mr. Iselin : Did I examine what marks? 
Mr. Choate : The marks that were put there 
by Mr. Hyslop. 
A. Mr. Herreshoff painted on the marks in the 
presence of Mr. Watson and Mr. Hyslop. 

Q. You did not watch them, to see about the 
correctness of that? A. No; I could not watch 
them, because I was sitting amidships. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. When did you first learn that the re-measure- 
ment was called for by Lord Dunraven? A. On 
Sunday morning. 

Q. Sunday morning? A. Yes, sir; the re- 
measurement. But the marking I heard of on Friday. 



255 



Q. And from whom? A. On Sunday morning — 
I do not know from whom I heard it ; but from the 
talk among my friends I understood that the boat 
was not only going to be marked, but re-measured. 
I may have been told so by Mr. Canfield. I do not 
remember. 

By Mr. Choate : 

Q. Was Lord Dunraven brought there at the 
time of the re-measurement? A. Yes. 

Q. Did you meet him personally and talk with 
him? A. I did. 

Q. Did he refer to any complaint? A. He did 
not. 

Q. Or find any fault? A. He did not. 

Mr. Askwith: Those questions might have 
been asked Lord Dunraven when he was here. 
Mr. CJioate: I know they might have been, 
but I did not think of it. 

Q. What did pass between you and Lord Dun- 
raven? A. I went on deck, and Lord Dunraven at 
that time was sitting on the Valkyrie, nearly amid- 
ships, waiting for the re-measurement, and he came 
off of the Valkyrie with Mr. Kersey, and I was with 
Mr. Duncan. We shook hands and said good- 
morning, and talked about its being a very warm 
day, and I think I asked him what time he got up 
to Bay Ridge the night before, and he told me 
pretty late and the Bridgeport later. He did not 
dine until 10 o'clock, or something like that. 

Q. No complaint? A. No complaint. 

Q. No reference to any complaint or cause of com- 
plaint? A. None whatsoever. 

By Mr. Rives: 

Q. Did you have any conversation with him on 
Saturday morning, at the Hook, when he came 
alongside your boat? A. I had a few words with 
him, yes. 

Q. To what effect? What was it about? A. I 
said good-morning ; and just as he was going off, I 



256 



said, " Lord Dunraven, I have a suggestion to 
make to you. I would like to make you a little 
bet on the result of these races." I said, " I would 
like to bet you my binnacle against yours." He 
waited a few minutes, and I think his answer was, 
as near as I can recollect it, " I think not." 

By Mr. Choate: 

Q. As I understand you, up to the 24th of Oc- 
tober, you remained in absolute ignorance that he 
had any cause of complaint? A. To the 25th of 
October. 

Q. You considered yourself charged with the full 
responsibility of anything that occurred on that 
vessel during the races? A. Absolutely. 

Q. I will ask you your judgment whether any such 
thing could have occurred as has been suggested 
here by Lord Dunraven, either the lightening of the 
boat preliminary to the first measurement, the 
putting on board in any form of any weight to the 
extent of nine or ten tons, or to any amount, and 
the taking it out again before the second re-measure- 
ment, without your knowledge? A. I cannot 
imagine that such a thing could be possible. 

Q. You say that, not only on your knowledge of 
this particular case, but from your general experi- 
ence as a yachtsman? A. Yes. 

Q. I do not know exactly how extensive your 
expert knowledge is, but could you tell from the 
motion and handling of the Defender, whether 
there were ten or fourteen tons more or less of bal- 
last or weight in her? A. Yes; I could tell at 
once. 

Q. How could you tell that? A. By the feeling 
of the boat, the way she moved. 

Q. Do you know from that that no such thing 
had occurred? A. No such large amount of bal- 
last as was necessary to immerse her four inches. 

Q. You had beeu on her on every previous race? 
A. Every previous race. 



257 



Q. And were perfectly familiar with her move- 
ment and conduct? A. Perfectly. 

Q. This boat has been laid up at New Rochelle 
since when? A. Since after the Cup races. 

By Mr. Whitney : 

Q. The trial races, you mean? A. No. 

By Mr. Choate : 

Q. Up at New Eochelle? When did she go to 
New Rochelle after the Cup races? A. She went 
there the next day, I think — yes. 

Q. Had she been lying where you have been in 
the habit of seeing her up there? Ha?e you seen 
her several times? A. All Summer, yes; but not 

since 

Q. Not since then? A. I have seen her; but 
she is not lying where I could see her from my 
house. 

Q. These marks that were put on by Mr. Herres- 
hoff and Mr. Watson remained as they were put 
on by them? A. As far as I can say, certainly. 

Q. You know of no change? A. I know of no 
change. 

Mr. Choate: I want to correct one error I 
made. It seems that Mr. Leeds said it was 
shortly after eight that Mr. Leeds and you 
went aboard, and not half past. You said 
about eight o'clock? 

Mr. Iselin: I said about eight, yes. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. Who had charge of the Defender during the 
night of Friday, before the first race? A. Capt. 
Half. 

Q. He was on board? A. He was on board. 

Q. Who had charge of the Hattie Palmer that 
night? A. Capt. Taylor, I think his name is. 

Q. He was on board through the night? A. 
Yes ; so far as I know. He was supposed to be. 



258 



By Mr. Whitney : 

Q. How near did you lie to the Defender Satur- 
day night? A. It might have been a hundred 
yards. Perhaps not quite so much. Near that. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. Where was the Hattie Palmer Saturday 
night? A. When she first came up to Bay Ridge 
she was alongside the Defender, and as far as I 
know she stayed there until between half-past nine 
and ten o'clock. The crew got all their meals on 
board the Palmer; the Defender did not arrive 
there until after eight o'clock ; they got their supper 
and put their cots aboard ; I believe it was half- 
past nine, but I am not positive of that. 

Q. Then where did the Palmer go, if she went 
anywhere? A. The Palmer, I think, went into the 
Atlantic Club House, or near there. I think so. 

Q. How far from the Defender? A. That would 
be half a mile at least, or three-quarters of a mile, 
I should judge. 

Q. But Capt. Han remained on board the De- 
fender Saturday night? A. Yes. 

By Mr. Whitney : 

Q. You sailed the races prior to the Cup races 
without any ballast? A. Yes. 

Q. Had she been measured before this ? A. Yes ; 
she had been measured in the trial races with the 
Vigilant. 

Q. Was she measured for the Goelet Cup race? 
A. No; she was not. I believe Lord Dunraven 
stated she was. 

Q. What did her measurement show — the first 
measurement? A. She was 88 T 8 7 5 -g- feet. 

Q. That was her first measurement? A. Yes. 

Q. Her second measurement was Friday, the 6th, 
was it? A. Yes. 

Q. I see Lord Dunraven says that according to 
Mr. Hyslop, the official measurer, the Defender 



259 



was some six inches shorter when measured for the 
Cup races than when measured for the Goelet Cup 
race. What do you say? A. That is not so, ac- 
cording to Mr. Hyslop's measurement. There was 
a difference of forty-hundredths of a foot. 

By Mr. Hives: 

Q. She was longer at the time of the trial races? 
A. Yes. 

By Mr. AsTcwith : 

Q. You say she was not measured for the Goelet 
Cup? A. Yes, I said so. 

Q. Had you found her to be in her best trim 
then? A. I do not know what her best trim is yet. 
Q. Did you frequently, in the course of the 
Summer races, alter her trim ? 

Mr. Iselin : In what way? 
Mr. Askwith : By ballast? 
A. No, there was no ballast on board to be 
changed. 

Q. By bringing in an extra tank, or extra furni- 
ture? A. No. 

Q. Was she sailing then on her designed trim? 
A. No, she was sailing shorter, very little; the 
difference between 88.85 and 89. 

Q. Had you found the trim that she was 
then sailing on unsatisfactory? A. No. You 
can always improve these boats in my opinion. 

Q. Did you think it wise to improve a boat by 
taking out all her fittings two days before the race, 
and by having lead put into her on the night be- 
fore the race, and your men working the whole 
night? A. You are not stating the facts as they 
were. The men were not working all night. 
Mr. Choate : I have not heard of it. 
Mr. Iselin : I have not heard of it, either. 
Mr. AsTcwith : I put in some affidavits, show- 
ing that knocking was going on the whole 
night on the Defender. 



260 



Q. Were many of your men on board the De- 
fender that night — or how many? A. I think 
there were forty men sleeping on board that night. 

Q. On the two? A. No; not on the two. 

Q. On the Defender alone? A. On the Defender 
alone. 

Q. On Friday night? A. On Friday night. 
Fully forty men. 

Q. Were some of those men of yours on board 
the Hattie Palmer? A. None of the regular crew. 
I had, besides the regular crew 

Q. You were not there, so you could not say 
what the men were doing. But do you know 
whether it was your own men or other men who 
were moving the lead into the Defender? A. I 
cannot state that, because I was not there. 

Q. You gave no orders upon the subject? A. I 
gave orders to have the lead stowed ; yes. 

Q. Did you know that the pigs of lead were to 
be sawed in two? A. Yes. Not sawed, but cut. 

Q. How were they cat? A. Cut with an axe. 
That is the way they were cut. It was with the 
use of an axe. 

Q. Roughly cut with an axe? A. Roughly cut 
with an axe. 

Q. To be fitted in to the partitions of the De- 
fender's skin? A. Yes. 

Q. The night before the race? A. The night 
before the race. 

Q. You had not attempted any such alteration 
of that kind during the whole Summer? A. No. 

Q. The America's Cup race was the first race that 
you tried such an alteration in — or, rather, your 
agents did? A. Yes. 

Q. You took out seven thousand pounds of fit- 
tings, of tanks — was not that the amount? A. 
Yes ; as near as I could get at it. 

Q. You suggested that you put in six thousand 
pounds of lead? A. Yes. 

Q. Was it a usual thing to lighten up a vessel 



261 



the night before a race? A. I do not know whether 
the lightening np of the vessel was usual. She 
would have more stability, in my opinion, with 
the six thousand pounds in the keel than she would 
have with seven thousand pounds in the cabin. In 
other words, she might be an improved boat. 

Q. Would not the result of putting in six thou- 
sand pounds instead of seven thousand pounds be 
to lighten the vessel up and to lower her centre of 
gravity? A. Yes, the difference would be the 
thousand pounds in weight. 

Q. Well, but that would be the effect, would it 
not? 

Mr. Iselin ; To lighten the vessel? 
Mr. Askwith : And to lower her centre of 
gravity. 
A. Yes. 

Q. Is it, in your experience, usual and a wise 
thing to alter a vessel's flotation and alter the 
centre of her gravity at the last moment? A. 
When the difference is so small, in my opinion 
it would not make any difference. 

Q. What was the advantage of doing it? A. 
The advantage, if any, would be that she would 
carry her sails better. In case of a blow she would 
carry her sails better with the weight lower down. 

Q. You would have no opportunity of seeing 
whether the vessel could be improved? A. No; 
but I know that from the fact that she would be. 

Q. Can you tell me why the lead was cut up? 
A. Yes. 

Q. Why? A. Because it was too long to go be- 
tween the frames of the vessel. The frames were 
twenty inches apart, and the lead is about twenty- 
eight inches ; each pig about twenty-eight inches 
long. 

Q. Can you tell me why it was not stowed away 
before night? A. Yes; because we had no time 
to stow it and cut it before that time, to my 
knowledge. 



262 

Q. You knew on October 25 that Lord Dunraven 
had made a request for re-measurement and mark- 
ing; did that astonish you very much? 
Mr. Iselin: On October 25? 
Mr. Asfcwitli : Yes ; when you read it in 
the paper? 
A. Yes. 

Q. You did not take any action upon the re- 
port which you saw in the paper? A. Not at once. 

Q. You waited until his own story came out? 
A. I did. 

Q. Did that appear to you to add anything very 
different from what had been said in the report to 
the New York Yacht Club? A. Yes; it had an 
entirely different aspect, in my opinion. 

Q. Was Mr. Latham Fish not accepted by you 
as a representative man, to go on your behalf upon 
the Yalkyrie? A. He was acceptable in this sense: 
That the Committee asked me whom I would like 
to have, and I said, " Any one among your Com- 
mittee would be perfectly agreeable to me." But 
he was not supposed to be representing me. He 
was representing the New York Yacht Club. 

Q. Did you not look to him as the person to 
look after your interests upon the Yalkyrie? A. 
In the way of seeing that there was fair play, yes ; 
and that the sailing rules were obeyed, and all that 
sort of thing, yes. 

Q. He made no communication to you? A. 
None. 

Q. That at the time of the race Lord Dunraven 
had made no suggestions that your boat was sailing 
at a lower immersion? A. None. 

Q. Did you take any active part in the design- 
ing of the Defender, beyond an agreement or ar- 
rangement with Mr. Herreshoff that he was not to 
exceed 89 feet? 

Mr. Iselin : 1 do not know what you mean 
by an active part. 

Mr. AsTcwith ; You are not, I mean to say, a 



263 



designer yourself, but you take an amateur 
interest in designing. 
Mr. Iselin : I do. 

Q. Did you assist him at all in designing? A. 
No. I wish I knew enough to assist him ; he knows 
so much more than I do. 

Q. Did you leave the preparation of the plans 
entirely to him, or did you look at them as they 
were proceeding? A. No, I looked at them after 
they were completed. There was more than one 
plan made. 

Q. Do you know whether the working plans of 
the Defender are in existence? A. Yes; I should 
say they were. I am not positive of it. I do not 
suppose Mr. Herreshoff would burn them up or 
destroy them. 

Q. The Defender was measured, I suppose, in the 
course of summer, for some of these races? A. 
Yes ; I have already stated that she was measured 
for the trial races. 

Q. Only for those? A. That is all. 

Q. This furniture and these traps and tanks must 
have weighed a great deal. Did you keep on add- 
ing to them in a casual manner, without testing the 
weight that was actually in the boat, or did you fit 
her up with a certain number of tanks and a certain 
amount of furniture, and not add to those during 
the Summer? A. They were not added to during 
the Summer. 

Q. In any of these races, at the time when she 
was fitted up with her furniture, did you stiffen her 
at times by loose ballast? A. Never. 

By Mr. Rives : 

Q. You kept adding to your sail area, during the 
Summer, did you not? A. Yes; I did. 

Q. The boat was a little too stiff, in your opinion ? 
A. Yes, in our opinion she was too stiff to compete 
with a boat like the Yalkyrie. 

The Chairman : I did not hear that. 



264 

Mr. Iselin : She was, in our opinion, too 
stiff to compete with a boat like the Valkyrie. 

By Mr. Aslcwith : 

Q. When was her sail area altered? A. It was 
immediately after the Goelet Cup Race. 

Q, Had you seen any plans of the Valkyrie at 
that time? A. No ; I had heard a great deal about 
them. 

Q. You have heard that they have been missing? 
A. No. I never heard of that. 

Mr. Choate : Are you in search of them? 
Mr. Aslcwith : I am not the owner of the 
plans. 

Q. Did you weigh the amount of furniture and 
tanks that you took out? A. We weighed the fur- 
niture and partitions and those things, but we did 
not weigh the tanks, because Mr. Herreshoff had 
that data. 

Q. He had what? A. He had the data of the 
weighing of the tanks. He had that information. 

Q. He had that given to him, that they weighed 
about so much? A. No, not given to him. He had 
calculated it. 

Q. He had calculated it? A. I suppose so; he 
calculated everything. 

Q. No closer steps were taken to ascertain the 
exact amount of ballast that was taken out — the 
amount of material that was taken out? A. No, I 
do not see how he could take any other steps. 

Q. When you examined the Defender on the 
morning of Saturday, where did you look at her 
hold forward? A. Two different places: aft and 
about amidships. I mean to say, aft, that is, com- 
ing down just at the bottom of the companionway. 

Q. Where was the lead stowed? A. The lead 
was stowed right on top of the keel and between 
her frames. 

Q. Whereabouts in the boat? A. Well, it was 
a little aft of amidships. Part of the lead was 



265 

a little aft of a partition that came between the 
sail room and cabin, which partition was left at 
that time. 

Q. Did you count the pigs of lead? 
Mr. Iselin: That morning? 
Mr. Askwith : Yes. 
Mr. Iselin : No. 

Q. You were said by the last witness to be in the 
habit of examining your boat before races, to see 
whether there was anything extra in her. Was that 
the purpose of it? A. To see if there was any water 
in her, yes. 

Q. Did you examine her, or do you examine her, 
with any idea of possible suspicion? Was that the 
object of examining her? A. No; it was not. 

Q. You have heard, or there was a rumor, that 
there has been at times suspicion in yacht racing? 
Mr. Iselin: Of overloading with ballast? 
Mr. AsJcwitli : With ballast, yes. 
A. Yes, sir; I have heard of such things. 

Q. It is not unknown that frauds have, accord- 
ing to rumor, been committed, although perhaps no 
definite complaints have been made? A. Well, I 
have never heard of any particular case that I can 
think of now. I have heard of such things, but 
of no particular case. 

Q. But it is not such an utterly unheard of thing 
in the yachting world, any more than in the racing 
world? A. Yes; it is much more unheard of in 
the yachting world. 

Q. But it does exist? It is rumored, at any rate, 
to exist in both? A. Yes. 

Q. If this statement of Lord Dunraven had been 
brought to your notice upon September 7th, should 
you have been inclined to have treated it as absurd 
and preposterous? A. No. I do not know what 
you mean, exactly. 

Q. Perhaps I put it vaguely. I mean, put it in 
the words that are said to have been used by Lord 
Dunraven, in making his statement about the yacht 



266 

Defender : If those had come to your notice, should 
you have been inclined to treat that as a complaint? 
The Chairman : What words do you refer 
to? 

Mr. AsJcwith : The complaint upon Septem- 
ber 7th, which was conveyed to the Cup Com- 
mittee. 

The Chairman : Do you mean the statement 
that the vessel was immersed three or four 
inches more? 

Mr. AsJcwith : Yes. 
A. The charge of fraud, you mean? I would have 
refused to have sailed any more races with Lord 
Dunraven. That is the step I would have taken. 

Q. I am not asking you that question. I ask 
you this : You would not have treated that as a 
light statement to have had made to you? A. No, 
not any charge of fraud. 

Q. Taking the statement in the exact words that 
were put down, you would not have treated that as 
a light statement, if it had been made to you? A. 
Not if Lord Dunraven had made it in writing. 

Q. If it had been made to you in words, if it had 
come to your knowledge in any manner, upon that 
day, should you have treated it as a light state- 
ment? A. No. 

Q. It was a matter that affected the absolute 
race itself and the interests of both boats ; is not 
that so? 

Mr Iselin : The result of the race ? It would 
have affected the result of the race ? 

Mr. AsJcwith : No ; I am not saying it 
affected the result of the race ; but it would 
have affected the race? 
Mr. Iselin : In what way? 
Mr. AsJcwith : Such a statement as that, 
that the boat was sailing more deeply immersed 
than when she had been measured. If that 
had been known to you, it would have been a 
matter, in your opinion, which would affect the 



267 

race. Your boat would have been disqualified^ 
I presume, if it had been found out to be the 
fact? 

Mr. Iselin: Yes, if it had been found out 
so. 
Q. And it would certainly have been a suffi- 
ciently serious matter for you to desire an investi- 
gation? A. Yes. 

Q. You have only the merest and most distant 
acquaintance with Lord Dunraven? A. Yes. 

Q. I mean, you did not know him before this 
race? A. Oh, yes. 
Q. You did? A. Yes. 

Q. You have met him before? A. I met him 
in 1893. 

By Mr. Rives : 

Q. You met him for the first time in 1893, did 
you say? A. Yes. 

Q. That was when he was racing against the 
Yigilant, with Valkyrie II? A. Yes. I met him 
in 1894 also. 

By Mr. AsTcwith: 

Q. You met in the yachting world here, then, 
and you met him when he was out yachting in 1893? 
A. Yes. I was sailing the Yigilant. 

By Mr. Rives : 

Q. You sailed the Yigilant in 1894, too, at Cowes? 
A. Yes ; I sailed in the Vigilant in 1894 at Cowes. 

By Mr. AsTcwith: 

Q. This conversation was just an interchange, 
and no more, of ordinary remarks, of one person to 
another? A. Ordinary civilities, yes. 

Q. The tanks upon the Defender were movable 
tanks? A. You could get them out, yes. They 
were put in there, but you could take them out, 
the same way they were put in. 

Q. Were they fixed tanks, according to the de- 
sign? 



268 



Mr. Iselin : What do you mean by fixed 
tanks? 

Mr. AsTcioitli : Well, when you say you 

could get them out, were they sort of breakers ? 

A. They were put in there so that they could be 

taken out at any time we wanted to. We could 

take them out. 

By Mr. Whitney: 

Q. Fastened to the boat, were they? A. They 
were fastened so that they could not roll about 
from one side to the other. They were under the 
floor ; under the cabin floor. 

By Mr. Askioitli : 

Q. They were not permanent fixtures? 

Mr. Iselin : What do you mean, by perma- 
nent fixtures? I do not see how a tank can be 
a permanent fixture? 

Mr. Askwith : I suppose you can always 
take a tank out somehow. 
A. You could take these tanks out. 

By Mr. Bites : 

Q. How were they fastened? Were they bolted 
to the ribs of the ship, or something like that? A. 
I could not say how they were fastened. Mr. 
Herreshoif can tell you that. 

By Mr. Asl'ioith : 

Q. Can you tell me whether they were similar to 
the tanks on the Vigilant ? A. No; I could not. 
I could not recollect now exactly what those tanks 
were. 

Q. Were they near the centre-board trunk? 
Mr. Iselin: On the Defender? 
Mr* Ask with : I mean to say, on the Vigi- 
lant? 
A. Yes ; I think they were near the centre-board 
trunk ; they must have been somewhere near there, 
I do not remember, that was in 1893. 



269 

Q. I suppose Mr. Herreshofl: would know a great 
deal more than you, really, of the question of 
weights? A. Yes. 

By Mr. Whitney : 

Q. What did you mean by saying that you found 
when she came out she had too much stability to 
beat the Valkyrie? A. She was, in my opinion, 
a much stiffer boat than the Vigilant, and I knew 
how Vigilant compared with the Britannia, and 
also heard how Valkyrie compared with the Bri- 
tannia, and I could form my conclusions from that. 
I also knew what lead I had in my keel — the weight 
of the lead, and approximately the size of the Val- 
kyrie's sail plan. 1 could make up my mind from 
that information. 

Q. What kind of weather did you fear? A. I 
feared light weather, in the races with the Valkyrie. 

Q. What change would you have made in the 
boat at the time of the race, if you could have made 
any? A. I would have lightened her. 

Q. Speaking of your experience, how many 
yachts, small and large, have you yourself built, 
do you remember? A. Yes; I have built six 
yachts, small and large. I commenced yachting 
when I was about sixteen years old ; commencing 
with small boats ; and have been at it ever since. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. You have spoken of a number of races that 
you were in during the Summer previous to this. 
Did you have many with the Vigilant? A. Yes; 
we had, in fact, all of them except one with the 
Vigilant. 

Q. Were you always successful in your races 
with the Vigilant? A. Yes. We never lost a race, 
except by breaking down. We never lost a race 
where we finished. 

Q. Were any of those races in what you would 
call heavy weather? A. Only one. It was one of 
the trial races. On one race from Huntington to 



270 



New London. It was blowing hard that day ; also 
on one of the trial races. The rest of the weather 
was very light ; very moderate. 

Q. In comparison with the Vigilant how did the 
Defender act, as between heavy weather and light? 
That is to say, in which did she behave the best, 
as compared with the Vigilant? A. She behaved 
the best in heavy weather, in strong breezes. She 
was a better boat in heavy weather. 

The Chairman: Have you anything further? 
Mr. Choate : I have three or four questions, 
suggested by the cross-examination. 

By Mr. Choate : 

Q. To a question, not followed up, you answered 
that Lord Dunraven's publication had, to your mind, 
a very different aspect from the matter as stated 
in the Committee's report; an entirely different 
aspect. What did you mean by that? A. His first 
communication to the Cup Committee was merely 
a verbal one, and the boats having been re- 
measured, and Lord Dunraven having sailed the 
second race, I considered that he accepted that 
measurement and had no further reason for com- 
plaint. 

Q. Was this substitution of six thousand for 
seven thousand pounds taken out made after a full 
conference with Mr. Herreshoff ? A. Yes. 

Q. And on his advice or his concurrence? A. 
Yes ; we both agreed to that together. 

Q. You said that the object of your habit of ex- 
amination before a race was not to satisfy suspicion. 
What was your object? A. My object was to see 
whether there was any water in the bilge. 

Q. You say that you would not have treated 
Lord Dunraven's statement about the extra immer- 
sion of four inches as a little matter if it had come 
to your knowledge when it was made. How would 
you have treated it? A. Well, I would have treated 
it as a gross insult to me at the time. 



271 



Q. You would have regarded it as a charge of 
fraud? A. I would have. 

Mr. Choate : We will call, for one moment, 
Mr. Louis F. Merrian. 

Louis F. Merrian, being called as a witness 
on behalf of Mr. Iselin, testified as follows : 

By Mr. Choate : 

Q. You are secretary of the concern of Mayor, 
Lane & Co., dealers in plumbers' supplies, and so 
on? A. I am. 

Q. And were in last year, last Summer? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. Did you make the sale to Mr. Thorne of the 

two lots of lead of which the bills have been put in 

by Mr. Iselin? A. It was made through the house. 

Q. And these are correct statements of the 

weight, and prices and amounts? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And no other lead was furnished by your 
house for the Defender? A. No other. 

Q. What was the siie of these pigs of lead? I 
I see they weighed just about 101 pounds. What 
were their dimensions? A. Two feet five inches 
was their length ; and four and three-quarters wide, 
and two and three -eighths thick. 

Q. It is a standard measurement ? A. Yes. 
Q. You have the receipts for the delivery of 
these two lots on board, have you? A. (Producing 
papers.) Yes, sir. 

Mr. Choate : I want to see the dates. Sep- 
tember 4, received the forty-two pigs, and Sep- 
tember 5, received the twenty-one pigs. That 
is all. 

Mr. Askwith : I have no questions to sug- 
gest. 

Mr. Choate : We will call Capt. Haff, if he 
is here. 



272 



Hestky C. Haff, being called as a witness on 
behalf of Mr. Iselin, testified as followed : 

By Mr. Choate : 

Q. How long have you followed the seas? A. 
Well I have followed the water, off and on, for 
about thirty-live years. 

Q. How long have you been specially in the 
yachting business? A. Well, for the last — since 
1866, mostly. I have been some three or four 
years out of it. 

Q. Will you name a few of the yachts that you 
have commanded? A. The Onward ; Fannie ; May- 
flower ; Titania ; Volunteer ; the Colonia ; Vigilant ; 
Defender. 

Q. The Vigilant was not the American Vigilant, 
but the English Vigilant, was it not? A. Yes ; she 
was the American Vigilant. She was on the other 
side when I was sailing master of her. 

Q. You brought her over? A. No, sir; I sailed 
her over there. 

Q. When were you employed by Mr. Iselin, in 
regard to the Defender? A. In February last, I 
think somewhere about February. 

Q. Did you command her all the time, on all the 
trips she made on all the races? A. I was what is 
called the sailing master of her, yes, sir. 

Q. Did you employ her other officers and crew? 
A. Yes, sir; I did. 

Q. Will you state what the officers were and 
what was the complement of men? A. We had a 
mate, second mate, two quarter-masters on the 
start and thirty men. 

The Chairman : Please suspend a moment. 
It is represented by Mr. Herreshoff that it is 
very important for him to go away; that a ves- 
sel is building in which he is concerned. Do 
you not think you could manage to enquire of 
him this afternoon? Under ordinary circum- 
stances we would desire him to be kept, but it 



273 



seems to be quite important, in view of other 
people, that he should go away. 

Mr. Choate : He has been detained here now 
one or two days longer than he expected to be 
when he left his work. 

Mr. AsJcwitJi : Is he coming back in the 
course of next week? 

Mr. Whitney : He lives a good ways from 
here — five or six hours, by rail. 

The Chairman : I hope we shall not be here 
very long into next week. 

Mr. Choate: I hope to finish all we shall 
have to offer on Monday, and certainly before 
the end of the day. 

The Chairman : I am afraid it will be hardly 
reasonable for us to detain Mr. Herreshoff after 
to-day. 

Mr. Aslcwith : Well, of course we are here in 
the position of simply, by any questions that 
we may ask, endeavoring to assist the Commis- 
sion. I can ask a certain number of questions. 
There may be a lot more that I should desire 
to ask. If they could be put down upon 
paper, I dare say they could be sent to Mr. 
Herreshoff to answer. 

The Chairman ; The general rule in judicial 
proceedings is that the witness must be cross- 
examined immediately after his direct exam- 
ination. The variation to that is an exception, 
founded upon circumstances. We will be very 
glad to accommodate you in this case. 

Mr. Aslcwith : I am prepared to ask a few 
questions, and I will reserve the right, if I 
may, to ask any further questions about 
weights, and so on, upon paper. 

Mr. Choate : And send it to him in writing? 
That is right. 

The Chairman: There is no objection to 
that at all. Proceed, unless you are going to 
take the day with Captain Haff. 



274 



Mr. Choate : I think we had better take Mr. 
Herreshoff now. Captain Han 2 will please to 
step aside. I know Mr. Herreshoff wants to 
take a boat or train this afternoon. 

Mr. Whitney : He is a very busy man, I 
know. 

Nathaniel G. Herreshoff, recalled as a wit- 
ness on behalf of Mr. Iselin, testified as follows : 

By Mr. Choate : 

Q. It seems that you gave Mr. Iselin some 
weights of the tanks. Were they estimates, or 
actually ascertained in the construction? A. The 
weights given to him were the actual weights. 
They were estimated, and weighed besides. 
N&'Q. How were those water tanks fastened, if at 
all, into the vessel? A. The water tank was fast- 
ened — it fits in a Y-shaped place permanently, 
and comes close up under the cabin floor, so that it 
can rise but very little. Besides that there are cleats 
from the cabin floor to the frame to hold it into 
place. 

Mr. Rives : Will you try to speak a little 

louder. It is sometimes difficult to hear you 

over here. 

By Mr. Asfcwith : 

Q. These plans are not taken from the original 
plans of the Defender? A. No, not at all. 

Q. You know nothing about their construction — 
about their being made? A. No; they were not 
made under my direction. They were made under 
the direction of Mr. Iselin. 

Q. Are the working drawings of the Defender in 
•existence? A. Certainly. 

Q. Are they in your possession? A. Not here. 

Q. Are they in your possession? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Can you tell from your knowledge of the 
Defender what would be the necessary weight to 



275 



lengthen her water line one foot? A. I haven't 
any figures. For one foot length of water line? 

Mr. AsJcwith : Yes. 
A. (Continued.) I could make a rough estimation. 

Q. What is your rough estimate? A. I have 
made an estimation for an inch in depth, and two 
inches in depth, and one foot, and one foot would 
be about one inch and a half immersion. 

Q. One foot would be about one inch and a half 
immersion? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What weight would be required for that? 
A. I think I have a memorandum that would assist 
me. It would be a little over four tons and a half. 

Q. As much as that? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How much would four inches deeper increase 
her load water line? A. It would increase her load 
water line about 32 inches. 

Q. As much as that? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How much would three inches increase her 
load water line? A. About twenty-four. 

Q. And two inches? A. Sixteen. 

Q. And one inch? A. Eight. 

Q. Supposing the trim alone was altered and the 
vessel put two inches by the head, how much would 
that lengthen the load water line? A. Very little. 

Q. How much, if she was put three or four 
inches by the stern? A. Yery little either way. 

Q. What do you mean by very little? A. Per- 
haps a fraction of an inch. 

By Mr. Whitney : 

Q. Your meaning is, her line would increase as 
much at one end as it would lose at the other? A. 
Precisely ; yes, sir. It is about the same angle at 
each end, and of course the water line is a little 
fuller at the stern, so that the immersion of the 
stern would carry the bow out a little more. 

By Mr. Ghoate : 

Q. If she went down at one end, she would go 
up at the other to a certain degree? A. Yes, sir. 



276 



By Mr. Askwilh : 

Q. How much weight would be required for this 
— suppose it was placed in the best position for 
lengthening the load water line — to sink the ves- 
sel an inch or an inch and a half so as to cover this 
pipe and at the same time set her, say, three or 
four inches at the stern? A. I hardly understand 
that question. It is a little complicated. 

Q. How much weight would be required if placed 
in the best position for lengthening the load water 
line, to sink the vessel an inch or an inch and a 
half, so as to cover the alleged pipe, and at the 
same time set her three or four inches at the stern? 
A. I am unable to answer that. 

Q. You are unable to answer the question? A. 
Yes. 

Q. It seems to me it is rather complicated? Were 
those tanks upon the Defender similar to the tanks 
upon the Vigilant? 

Mr. Herreshoff : Which tanks do you refer 
to? 

Mr. Askwith : The tanks that were taken 
out at New Kochelle. 

Mr. Herreshoff ; Which? There were three 
tanks taken out. 

Q. Were any of them similar to the tanks on 
the Vigilant? A. The ice tank was similar, I 
think. 

Q. Had the Vigilant similar tanks? A. She 
had tanks. 

Q. Were they permanent tanks? A. No. 

Q. Were they around her centre-board? A. In 
the vicinity of it. That is, the water tanks were. 

Q. The tanks upon the Defender were not ar- 
ranged in the same way? A. No. 

Q. What were those tanks on the Vigilant used 
for? A. I do not know what tanks you have ref- 
erence to. 

Q. You said there were some tanks upon the 
Vigilant, around the centre-board? A. Yes, sir; 



277 



some water tanks. One each side of the centre- 
board, on the Vigilant. They were intended to 
hold water. 

Q. Can you tell me, supposing that lead was 
stowed aft, and the ship trimmed by the stern, 
whether much lead would be required to consider- 
ably alter the appearance of the boat? 

Mr. Herreshoff : Alter the appearance? 
Mr. AsTcwith : Yes ; to alter her appearance 
on the water. Is it not a fact that a compara- 
tively small quantity would do that? 

Mr. Herreshoff : Would alter her appearance 

very much — a small quantity? 

Q. Is it a fact that it would or would not? A. 

Of course it would alter her trim ; a small amount. 

In proportion to the load that was put in. A larger 

amount would alter her appearance. 

Q. I am asking you would a small amount alter 
her appearance much? A. I should say not. 

Q. Were these tanks that were taken out of the 
Defender included in the 7,000 pounds weight of 
furniture? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. When she had raced with them before was 
there any specified quantity of water in them? A. 
No ; I think not. I think they generally had only 
a very little. 

Q. Did you calculate that they should be full or 
empty? Did you design them to be full or empty? 
Mr. Herreshoff : During the racing? 
Mr. AsJcwith : Yes. 
A. They were to be nearly empty. I made an 
allowance for a small amount of water in the tank. 
Q. What was their size? A. I don't remember 
the exact size. 

By Mr. Rives : 

Q. You stated yesterday, I think, their capacity 
in gallons, approximately, did you not? A. 
Roughly. I have the exact size at home, but I 
haven't it with me. 



278 

Mr. Choate : I suppose he may send that. 

Mr. Herreshoff : What I stated was only 
approximate. 

Mr. Rives : You can send them in a note to 
Mr. Choate, if you can get the exact figures. 

Mr. Herreshoff : Yes, sir. 

By Mr. AsJcwith: 

Q. Did you definitely convey the first two tons 
of lead on board at New Rochelle, and then the 
other ton that we have had evidence of that was 
bought by Mr. Iselin, on board the Defender, by 
weight ? 

Mr. Herreshoff : Did I convey it on board? 

Mr. AsJcwith: Did you have it conveyed? 

Were you present when it was conveyed on 

board the Defender? 

A. I think not ; I do not remember now that I 

was present. I may have been. 

Q. Did you order first two tons to be put on board 
of her? A. I did not order any. 

Q. Was it at your suggestion that two tons were 
put on board of her? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. It was? A. After a consultation with Mr. 
Iselin. 

Q. Was it at your suggestion that one ton further 
was put on board of her? A. Yes, sir; after Mr. 
Iselin 's consultation. We decided together. 

Q. Were you present when the ton was put on 
board? A. No, I think not. 

Q. Do you know whether there was the whole of 
it put on board? A. I do not. 

Q. Or a part? A. No, sir. 

Q. You do not? A. I could not swear. 

Q. Do you know whether there was any more 
lead on the Hattie Palmer besides that? A. I do 
not know whether there was any lead on the Hattie 
Palmer. 

Q. Were you asked, when that last ton was put 
on board, whether you wanted any more? A. We 



279 



decided to put that ton on board, which was sent 
to the Erie Basin. 

Q. Were you present when that ton was put on 
board? A. Yes, sir; I was on the boat. 

Q. Did they call out to you from the Hattie 
Palmer, asking you whether you wanted anymore? 
A. I do not remember that it was taken from the 
Hattie Palmer. 

Q. Where was it taken from? A. I think it was 
taken from the dock. 

Q. Did anybody call out to you from the dock? 
A. In fact, I do not know. I am not sure. I was 
busy at other things at the time. 

Mr. Choate : Mr. Iselin testifies that it was 
waiting in a truck on the dock. 

Mr. AsJcwith : Then I suppose it was 
loaded from the dock ; but I want to know 
whether Mr. Herreshoff was present when that 
was loaded. 

Mr. HerresTioff : I was simply with Mr. 
Watson and Mr. Hyslop. I do not recall now 
the exact incident. 

By Mr. As7cwith : 

Q. While the lead was being put on, were you 
not asked whether you wanted anymore? A. No, 
I think not. I do not remember being asked. 

Q. Do you know the time during the Summer 
when the sail area of the Defender was increased? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Had you seen any plans of the Valkyrie at 
that time? A. No. 

Q. Have you ever seen any plans of the Val- 
kyrie? A. No. 

Q. What led you to increase the sail area? 
What was the object? A. To put more sail onto 
her. 

Q. What was the object of putting more sail on? 
A. To give her more power. 

Q. When the sail area was altered, which as you 



280 



say was to give her more power, was her ballast at 
all altered by your direction? A. ISTo. 

Mr. AsJcwith : Those are all the questions 
I wish to ask now. 

By Mr. Whitney : 

Q. I seem to recall that the general judgment of 
experts upon the two boats before the races, was 
that the Valkyrie would be at her best in light 
weather, and the Defender at her best in heavy 
weather. Was that so? A. I think that was the 
general opinion, from what information we had 
from abroad at the time. 

Q. Was that your opinion? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Did you think you had a surplus of stability 
on the Defender as compared with that of the 
Yalkyrie? A. Yes, sir; that is, judging from 
other yachts, the Vigilant and Defender. 

Q. The Defender has turned out to have very 
great stability ; greater power to carry sail, as I 
recollect it? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. I saw her in a squall. What day was that? 
The first or second? A. That was the last of the 
trial races. 

Q. What object would anybody have had to 
have increased the immersion of the Defender? A. 
Of course, to make a longer vessel of her; a longer 
and larger vessel. 

Q. I mean, in fitting her to compete against the 
Valkyrie, would you have preferred at that time 
to have increased or decreased her ballast? 

Mr. Herreslioff : You mean, taking the ves- 
sel just as she was? 

Mr. Whitney : Yes, just as you had been 
racing with her. 
A. We felt very well satisfied with the trim. 

Q. But your danger, if at all, as I understand 
it, was in light weather? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Did you want more ballast then? A. In 
light weather, of course, we would want less. 



281 



Mr. Clioate : That is all. I would like to 
call another witness before I recall Captain 
Haff. 

The Chairman : Is it understood that any 
questions are to be sent to Mr. Herreshoff? Do 
you desire to send any? 

Mr. AsJcwith : I really have not studied Mr. 
Herreshoff's evidence at all. I could not hear 
half of it, and I did not listen to it with that 
view. 

The Chairman : I have no doubt Mr. Herres- 
hoff will answer them, if you choose to send 
him any at his address. 

Mr. Choate : I would like to call the Cap- 
tain of the Flint, who towed the Defender 
down at certain times. 



Captain E. Walter Brandow, being called as 
a witness on behalf of Mr. Iselin, testified as fol- 
lows: 

Direct examination by Mr. Choate : 

Q. You were in the tug-boat Flint, were you not? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. She took the Defender and her tender, Hattie 
Palmer, on the 6th day of September, from New 
Rochelle to the Erie Basin? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And from there to the Lower Bay, to the 
Horseshoe? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Can you tell what time you left New 
Rochelle, and what time you got to the Lower 
Bay? Is not this your log? A. Yes, sir (after 
looking at the log). Left New Rochelle at 9.20 
a.m. ; arrived at the Lower Bay at 9.00 p.m. 

Q. I see there is no entry there as to what time 
you reached the Erie Basin, and what time you left 
it? A. There is no entry there; no, sir. We 
arrived at the Erie Basin about half -past eleven, as 
near as I can remember. 



282 



By the Chairman : 

Q. At night? A. No, sir; in the morning. 

By Mr. Choate : 

Q. And you would leave there at four or five T 
before dark? A. I think we left the Erie Basin 
about four o'clock in the afternoon and anchored 
off Bay Eidge. 

Q. Towing from the Erie Basin? A. We took the 
Defender out of the Erie Basin about four o'clock 
in the afternoon, and anchored off Bay Ridge. 

Q. Taking the Hattie Palmer? A. No; the 
Hattie Palmer went for coal at South Brooklyn. 

Q. What was the tender there referred to in 
your log? A. The tender generally went with us, 
so we would take her alongside, because we could 
go so much faster than she could, and all go to- 
gether. 

Q. You did not have any lead or ballast on your 
boat, to transfer, did you? A. No, sir. 

Mr. Choate : Now we will call Captain 
Haff. 

Captain Heney C. Haff, being re-called, further 
testified : 

Captain Haff: You asked me in relation to 
the crew. I want to quality the answer I 
made by saying — you asked me if I engaged 
the crew. I say, with the advice and consent 
of Mr. Iselin I did. 

By Mr. Choate: 

Q. To what extent were the officers and crew 
that were on her during the trial races the same as 
were on her during the Cup races? A. The same. 

Q. Were you at New Rochelle on the 4th and 
5th of September, when the Defender was being 
stripped? A. I was. 

Q. Did you sleep on board up there? A. Yes, 
sir. 



283 

Q. And you know what was done there in the 
way of taking out the trimmings and the tanks? 
A. I do. 

Q. And the putting in of two tons of lead, as 
Mr. Herreshoff and Mr. Iselin have testified? A. I 
do, yes, sir. 

Q. And you agree with the statements they 
have made? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Did you sail her, or go in her, from New 
Rochelle down to Erie Basin? A. I did. 

Q. On the morning of the 6th? A. I did. 

Q. And you were on board of her until the time 
of her measurement in the Erie Basin? A. Yes, 
sir. 

Q. Had anything been taken out of her except 
what Mr. Iselin and Mr. Herreshoff have testified 
to, at New Rochelle or on the way down, or any- 
thing put into her, except what they have stated? 
A. Not anything. 

Q. Before the measurement was she lightened at 
all for any purpose or by any means? A. We 
had taken out the bedding. That is all, the cots — 
which we always had. 

Q. That is the rule always? A. Always. 

Q. Will you state what there was in that shape 
to take out? A. There was some beds, for about 
forty men. Forty cots, with the bedding and 
blankets ; the mattresses and blankets. 

Q. Were there forty men besides the officers? 
A. Forty all told, with the officers. I believe that 
is the complement, within one. That is about the 
number. 

Q. Those were taken out openly, in the usual 
way, before she was measured? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Where were they put? A. On board the 
Palmer. 

Q. Did you observe anything about the Defender 
being on an even keel when she was measured, or 
did you not look? A. I know there was some 
talk of her having a little list. 



284 



Q. When was that? A. That was while we 
were getting ready to measure. 

Q. Prior to the measurement? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You heard that? A. Yes, sir; I remember 
distinctly a talk about it, and something was done 
about it, but what was done I do not remember. 
We shifted the boom a little, Mr. Leeds said she 
had a little list. He was astern of her, I believe, 
in a small boat. 

Q. When the measurement was completed, how 
long did you remain there until you started for 
Sandy Hook? A. We started for. Bay Ridge — I 
could not. tell within half an hour. Probably about 
three o'clock. 

Q. In tow of the Flint? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How long did you stay at Bay Ridge? A. 
We laid at Bay Ridge until very near sun-down. 
Something in that neighborhood. 

Q. Where was the Hattie Palmer in the mean- 
time? A. The Hattie Palmer had left us after we 
were measured. The Hattie Palmer had to go for 
coal and water. She hadn't enough to go to the 
Hook with. She went down to 26th Street, Brook- 
lyn, and she was fitted out for Bay Ridge. 

Q. You waited for her with the Defender at Bay 
Ridge? A. We did. 

Q. And she having come up, she was taken in tow 
also by the Flint? A. Yes, sir. We waited for 
her there. We got tired of waiting. I put all the 
men on the Flint as it was getting near supper 
time, and I sent them to meet the Palmer, and they 
met the Palmer. They came off and it was very 
near sun-down. The Palmer went ashore and put 
our mainsail ashore. We had an extra mainsail on 
board, that was in the sail-room, and it filled it up 
so that it didn't leave enough room to put the beds 
under cover on a stormy day. It was a small main- 
sail that we had on her previous to enlarging the 
sail. 

Q. Had you orders up to this time to cut the 



285 



twenty-one pigs of lead that were received on board 
at the Erie Basin? A. Yes, sir; we had. 

Q. Why did you not cut it while you were wait- 
ing at Bay Ridge? A. We had no good solid 
block to cut it on, and there is not a suitable place 
on a boat's deck to cut it, and again the chisel that 
we cut with and the maul, and so on, were on board 
the Hattie Palmer. 

Q. You did not leave the Defender at all? A. 
No, sir. I was on the Palmer long enough to get 
my meals ; that is all. 

Q. That was always when the Palmer was along- 
side of you? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And the two made fast? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You went on to Sandy Hook or the Horse- 
shoe and made fast there about nine o'clock? A. 
My recollection is, about half -past eight. Notwith- 
standing the log, half -past eight is my recollection. 

Q. Did you anchor there the Defender, by her- 
self? A. Yes, sir; we anchored. 

Q. What did the Hattie Palmer do? A. The 
Hattie Palmer came alongside. 

Q. As soon as the tow was loose? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And made fast in some way? A. Made fast. 
Took a line out. 

Q. How long did the Hattie Palmer remain along- 
side of the Defender? A. About an hour, until 
about half -past nine. 

Q. It would make it about half -past nine to ten? 
A. About half-past nine. It might have been per- 
haps fifteen minutes from that. It was somewhere 
between nine and ten, at any rate, when she left. 

Q. Left for the night? A. Yes, sir. 

Mr. AsTcwith : Which night was that? 
Mr. Choate : The night of the 6th. 

Q. From the time of the measurement until the 
Hattie Palmer left, was any lead or ballast or water 
taken on board the Defender? A. Not a pound of 
anything. 

Q. What happened during the hour or more 



286 



that the Hattie Palmer lay alongside of the De- 
fender in the Horseshoe from half -past eight or nine 
on? A. This lead that we had on the cabin floor, 
was taken ont to the Palmer, on her sampson post, 
a good solid block, and we cut it. It was there 
cut in two and put back again on the Defender 
and passed below. 

Q. Had there been any opportunity until then 
to take it on to the Hattie Palmer to be cut? 
A. No, sir; there had not. There had been no 
time when it was possible for us to do it. 

Q. Did you take part in the cutting? A. I did. 
I held the chisel to cut every pig that was cut. 

Q. Was it with a chisel or axe and hammer? A. 
A chisel. Any wood-cutter will know what an old- 
fashioned wedge is to split logs. I held it while 
the man mauled it. 

Q. Your crew, or some of them, were engaged in 
bringing the pigs from the Defender to the Hattie 
Palmer, and assisting you, and taking them back 
in pieces, in halves, and packing them away? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. Was all that done under your direction? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. Was any lead introduced into the Defender 
from the Hattie Palmer, except what had been 
brought from the Defender to be cut and carried 
back? A. Not a pound. 

Q. Or any thing else of any weight? A. Nothing. 

Q. There was something, in the way of cots, that 
had been taken out? A. They were put back in 
the Basin. 

Q. They were restored at Bay Ridge? A. At 
Erie Basin. 

Q. Was there anything else carried backward 
and forward while the Hattie Palmer lay alongside 
of the Defender, except these twenty-one pigs of 
lead? A. Nothing. 

Q. You saw to their being stowed away under 
the floor, where you say that the two tons were? 



287 



A. Mr. Berry, the mate, was in charge of it while 
we were cutting the lead. 

Q. Is he here? A. Yes, sir. There was about 
twelve or fifteen pieces that were perhaps not 
already stowed. I went down in the hold and saw 
where it was stowed, and saw the condition of the 
lead where it was stowed, and to see that it was in 
the place where we intended to place it. 

Q. You say of your own knowledge that from 
the time of the measuring until the Hattie Palmer 
left, there was nothing brought into the Defender 
except the twenty-one pigs that were taken out, 
cut in two and brought back? A. I do say so. 

Q. Where did the crew take their meals that 
evening, if they had a supper, while the Hattie 
Palmer was alongside? A. That was one reason 
why I placed them all aboard the Flint, to hurry 
up the Palmer and to get their supper while there. 

Q. To get their supper on the Hattie Palmer 
while being towed back? A. No, sir, while they 
were going ashore to take the mainsail ashore. I 
got mine when she came back. She lay alongside 
long enough for the quarter- master and myself 
to get our meals, and then started on. 

Q. At Bay Ridge? A. At Bay Ridge. 

Q. Did you turn in that night until after the 
Hattie Palmer had left? A. No, sir. 

Q. Do you know where she went and stayed that 
night? A. My impression is that she went into 
the Highland Dock. I won't be positive about it. 

Q. Did you turn in that night? A. I did. 

Q. At what time, about? A. I could not say. 
It was somewheres in the neighborhood of eleven 
o'clock, I should say. 

Q. What time were you out in the morning? A. 
Between six and seven. 

Q. Do you know of no craft having visited the 
Defender in the meantime? A. No, sir. 

Q. Who did you leave in charge of the Defender, 
or the deck, whatever you call it, when you turned 



288 



in, from that time until you came out in the morn- 
ing? A. The quarter-masters had charge of the 
deck then, on watch. 

Q. Are they both here? A. They are here, yes, 
sir. Three of them are here now. They will all 
be here Monday morning. 

Q. You were on hand, on deck, two hours about 
before Mr. Iselin came with the gentlemen who 
accompanied him? A. Yes; on deck and below 
and around — aboard the boat, at any rate. 

Q. During that time was anything whatever 
brought into the vessel? A. Not anything. 

Q. Did any craft of any kind visit the vessel be- 
fore Mr. Iselin came? A. Not to my knowledge. 
Nothing came alongside. No craft. 

Q. Do you remember taking part with Mr. 
HerreshofT and Mr. Iselin in the examination to see 
whether the lead had been properly stowed? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. About what time was that? A. Somewhere 
a little after eight, I should think. 

Q. How was it got at? How was it examined? 
A. The floor was taken up. The floor was down 
in sections, so that you could rip it up. 

Q. You had assisted in putting in the last fifteen 
half pieces of the extra ton, had you not? A. I 
don't know as I took hold of the lead. 

Q. You saw it done? A. I stood there and saw 
it done, yes, sir. 

Q. You saw in what condition that left the hold, 
with the lead in it? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. When you made the examination the next 
morning with Mr. Herreshoff and Mr. Iselin, did you 
find it in the same condition? A. The same con- 
dition it was in the night before. 

Q. And nothing had been added ? A. No, sir. 

Q. And then you sailed upon your race. A. We 
did. 

Q. And came back. It is testified that you got 
up to Bay Ridge after dark? A. Yes, sir. Some- 



289 

where in the neighborhood of somewhere from 

eight to eight thirty, I think; probably eight 
thirty. 

Q. During that return trip, or going down, at 
anytime, from the time you made your exami- 
nation with Mr. Herreshoff and Mr. Iselin to the 
time you got back to Bay Ridge, was anything 
thrown out of the vessel or taken out of her in any 
way? A. No, sir; not anything. 

Q. Did you remain upon the Defender until she 
was re-measured the next day? A. Except to get 
my meals on the Palmer, alongside, as I say. 

Q. You went no farther from her than that? A. 
No. 

Q. When did she get alongside the Palmer on 
her home trip ? 

Capt. Haff ; The night after the race? 
Mr. Choate : Yes ; the night after the race. 
A. Soon after we anchored. I think she was lay- 
ing off there, waiting for us, somewhere around 
half -past eight, or eight forty, perhaps. 

Q. Did you sail up to there, or were you taken 
in tow below? A. Towed up. 

Q. By what boat? A. The Flint, 

Q. Was anything taken from the Flint on the 
way up, or transferred on to the Flint? A. Noth- 
ing but the end of a line to tow us with, that is all. 

Q. How long did the Hattie Palmer lay alongside 
that night? A. She might have laid there until 
about half-past nine, I should think, probably. 
Long enough for the men to get their meals, and 
for them to transfer the boats. 

Q. Was there anything transferred from the 
Defender to the Palmer at that time? A. Nothing 
from the Defender to the Palmer, no. She stayed 
there long enough for us to transfer the bedding 
again, and our boats that we wanted to use. The 
sail covers, perhaps, and so on ; everything that 
we usually put out when we sail on a race we took 
back. 



290 



Q. That included everything besides the cots 
and you say some boats? A. The boats we have 
ready to use. The gig; I don't remember whether 
we took the gig off that night, though, or not. 

Q. Some ropes or cables or anything of that kind? 
A. Whatever we put out for a race generally we 
took back. The sail covers. I don't think there 
was anything more than the sail covers, I think, 
that we put out. 

Q. What were the movements of the Defender 
from the time the Hattie Palmer left her at nine or 
ten o'clock, the night of the 7th^ until she was 
re-measured the next day. A. She lay there an- 
chored at Bay Ridge. 

Q. How did she get back into the Basin before 
Sunday afternoon? 

Oapt. Haff : Erie Basin? 
Mr. Ohoate : Yes. 
A. The Palmer towed her up. 

Q. When did the Palmer make fast to her to tow 
her up? A. I think about in the neighborhood of 
ten o'clock the next morning. lam not positive 
as to the hour ; I could not say. 

Q. So that she lay at anchor from about half -past 
nine or ten in the evening until ten in the morning? 
A. Yes, sir. 

By Mr. Rives : 

Q. Half -past eight? A. Half -past eight; I don't 
say within a minute. 

By Mr. Choate : 

Q. Was anything put out of her during that 
time? A. Nothing. Not a pound of anything. 

Q. When the Hattie Palmer rejoined her, it was 
to take her in tow, was it not? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And nothing was put from her on to the 
Hattie Palmer then? A. Nothing. 

Q. When did you get your orders to go to the 
Erie Basin? A. I think on Sunday morning. 

Q. From whom? A. From Mr. Iselin. I am 



291 



not positive now whether he sent a verbal order or 
sent me a note aboard. I could not say. 

Q. When the Hattie Palmer had towed you into 
the Erie Basin, did she leave you there at the place 
where you were subsequently measured, or did she 
remain fast by you? A. She lay off from us. She 
didn't lay alongside. 

Q. How far? A. I couldn't say. She laid 
along by the dock after we had stripped ready for 
measurement. 

Q. During that time, up to the time of the 
re-measurement, was anything removed out of the 
Defender? A. Not anything more than to strip 
for measurement. 

Q. No ballast, no lead, no water? A. Not any- 
thing. 

Q. You have covered the whole period of time 
from Friday, before the first measurement, to Sun- 
day, after the re-measurement? A. I think so. 

Q. Where did you sleep on the two nights? 
In what part of the Defender? A. I slept in the 
sail room ; on a cot in the sail room. 

Q. If any ballast had been brought out or carried 
in on either of those nights, could it have been 
done without your hearing it, where you were? 
A. Not unless somebody gave me a little chloro- 
form, or something of that kind. The end of my 
cot was, I suppose, within two feet of the hatch 
where this would have been taken up. 

Q. How is it about sounds on the Defender? 
Are they easily heard from one part of the vessel, 
or from where you were in the sail room, to the 
centre of the vessel? A. They are. On that boat 
it is heard with great distinctness. You can hear 
any step on the deck, in any position. It sounds 
all over the boat, from any part of the deck. 

Q. What do you say to the suggestion that be- 
fore the measurement on Friday she was lightened 
to make her set more out of the water ; that after 
the measurement nine or ten tons of some heavy 



292 



substance was carried on board of her to immerse 
her deeper in the water, and as much taken out of 
her before the re-measurement to restore her to her 
original condition? A. I say there is not a word 
of truth in it. There was no such thing done. 

Q. You have personal knowledge of the whole 
time covered? A. I do. I was there, sure. 

Q. It has been said here by some witness that he 
believed the Hattie Palmer anchored for the night 
within a hundred yards of the Defender? A. It 
is my belief that she did not. 

Mr. Choate : It was in the affidavits brought 
from England. 

Capt. Haff : I heard it ; yes. 

Q. Is that correct? A. No, sir; it is not. 
Mr. AsTcwith: Which affidavit is that in? 
Mr. Choate: The night before the race, at 
Sandy Hook. 

Q. How far was the place where you supposed 
she was from where the Defender lay that night? 
A. If she went to the Highlands, as I thought she 
did, she would be two miles away. 

Q. Was there any communication between the 
Hattie Palmer and the Defender from the time she 
passed off from you, at about ten o'clock, until she 
rejoined you the next morning? A. Not any. 

Q. Was there any work being done on the De- 
fender after the Hattie Palmer left and while she 
was there independent of this moving and cutting 
of the lead? A. There was. 

Q. What was that? A. The riggers were at work 
attaching new wire straps to the main sheet blocks. 

Q. What was the matter with that? A. It 
needed new ones, because the others had got 
stretched too long. 

Q. When did they begin the work? A. They 
began on the work some time during the day, I 
believe, on the Palmer, and came aboard at Bay 
Ridge that night, and continued the work until 
they got through with it. 



293 

Q. How late in the night were they working? 
A. Somewhere up to two o'clock, I. think — up to 
two or three o'clock. 

Q. Were they working when you turned in? 
A. They were. 

Q. Did they make more or less noise? A. Quite 
a little pounding; yes, sir. 

Q. What was it? Pounding on metal? A. 
Pounding to pound the splices down, yes. To splice 
heavy wire. 

Q. Can you determine, from coming up port 
side to a yacht or vessel, or a vessel like the De- 
fender, whether she has a list on of one or two 
degrees? A. I would not like to say that I could. 

Q. Do you think that anybody could? A. It 
would be doubtful. 

Q. What would you do to ascertain whether she 
had a list on of a small degree ? A. Either go fore or 
aft of her and sight her, on deck or away from her. 

Q. And you had a tell tale on the Defender that 
would tell? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Had you noticed the discharge from the pipe 
on the port side while the Defender was under 
way, sailing? A. When she was in racing trim? 
While she was sailing? I don't remember. 

Q. At any time? A. I have noticed it when we 
have been pumping the boat out sometimes in the 
morning. I noticed water coming from it, from 
the deck. 

Q. Did you notice it at that time at all? A. I 
don't remember that morning particularly. I 
know when we generally pumped the boat out I 
would look over the side to see whether the water 
was coming out or not. 

Q. You have seen that? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How did it come out? A. It was just under 
water. 

Q. Were you present when an observation was 
made to see if she had any water in her, the morn- 
ing before the race? A. Yes, sir; I was. 



294 



Q. That was done by the carpenter, under the 
oversight of Mr. Iselin, and yon were present? 
A. I think the carpenter took tip the floor, but I 
am not positive whether he or — I am not certain 
whether one of the men, Sellers, did not do it. 

Q. What was the result? Was any water found 
in her? A. No water there. 

By Mr. Aslcwith : 

Q. Where did you leave your boats? A. I left 
one on the Hattie Palmer, the gig. Both of them ; 
we had two boats on her. 

Q. You did not use the boats going backward 
and forward on that night, or perhaps generally 
during the races, did you, between the Hattie Palmer 
and the Defender? A. One boat we could use if 
we wanted to. No, we never used the boats to go 
backward and forward to the Hattie Palmer, be- 
cause she was always alongside of us when we 
boarded her. 

Q. How big was the pump for this hole? A. I 
could not say what was the size of the pump. I 
know the discharge pipe was about an inch and a 
quarter, perhaps. 

Q. Can you give me the height of the pump? A. 
I could not say exactly. We had to set a brake on 
board the deck to pump. The brake was screwed 
on flush with the deck. 

Q. Were there any other pumps in the boat? 
A. No pumps. What do you mean? 

Q. On the Defender? A. After the water tank 
was taken out, there was none. We used to have 
a pump to pump the water tank out. Water- 
closet pump. 

Q. We have heard they were used on the star- 
board side forward? A. There might have been a 
water-closet pump there. 

Q. Had there ever been a tank there? A. No 
tank there. 

Q. There was no pump in connection with it? 



295 



A. Water-closet pump ; there is always a pump 
connected with a water-closet. 

Q. Was there a water-closet forward on the star- 
board side? A. One at the bow; yes, sir. I won't 
say whether that pipe is on the starboard or port. 
But there was a water-closet there and a pump at- 
tached to it. 

Q. Was there not a pipe about amidships, and 
was there not another pipe hole in the starboard 
side forward? Was there or was there not? A. I 
think there was. If there was any there it was a 
water-closet pipe. I would not say whether it was 
starboard or port. I think it was starboard. 

Q. Had there been a water-closet forward on the 
starboard side? A. Yes, sir; it was on the star- 
board side. 

Q. Was that water-closet taken out or not? A. 
No. 

Q. How many water-closets were left in? A. 
Four. 

Q. Where were they situated? A. One forward 
in the bow ; the next one was forward of amidships 
on the port side ; just about amidships on the star- 
board side, and one further aft on the starboard side. 

Q. You got three on the starboard side, did you 
not? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Was there a pipe to each of those? A. There 
must have been. 

Q. An outlet through her skin? A. Of course. 

Q. Was not the wind blowing rather strongly on 
the evening of September 6th? A. No; a nice 
breeze ; not very strong. 

Q. Was it not rising? A. I didn't think so. 

Q. Did not the wind on the morning of the 7th 
rather suddenly drop away? A. It died down 
some, I think. It died down some, I don't know 
that it dropped away very sudden, I don't know 
about that. 

Q. Was there not considerable sea left running? 
A. I think there was. 



296 



Q. Was not that the kind of weather, with con- 
siderable sea, in which it would be an advantage 
for the boat to be rather stiffer — of the type of the 
Defender? A. No, sir; I do not think so. 

Q. Would she sail better if she were light, in 
a considerable sea? A. I think so; a boat that 
had as much weight as she did ; as much stationary 
ballast as she had. 

Q. As much stationary ballast in the form of 
lead? A. As much in her keel. That is what I 
mean by stationary ballast — her keel was lead. 

Q. Had she had seas of the kind. in any of the 
previous races, during the previous summer? A. 
Not very much, I think. One or two races we had. 

Q. Do you call to mind the sea that there was upon 
September 6th? Was that the kind of weather that 
you had had in several races during the Summer? 
A. I don't know that we had exactly the same kind 
of sea. We had had a sea that was nearly as bad, 
perhaps. We had had one or two races. 

Q. Can you give me any of the races during the 
Summer which you would compare in roughness of 
sea? A. The nearest to it was the first race we had 
with the Vigilant, outside the Hook. I don't re- 
member the day, some time in July I think. July 
20, or about there. Another time, I think, was the 
first trial race. 

Q. The first trial race and the race about the 20th 
of July? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Had she then the same amount of furniture 
and stuff in her as was put ashore at New Rochelle? 
A. The same things. 

Q. Then the trim in which she sailed those races 
would be a trim that satisfied you? A. Well, yes ; 
nearly so. 

Q. Assuming that she was lightened before 
measurement, would it not be an advantage to get 
her back into the trim? A. It would have been an 
advantage to have had her lighter than she was, 
anyhow. 



297 



Q. Lighter than she was when she was sailing in 
July? A. When she sailed. 

Q. Sailing in July and the first trial race? A. 
In the last race, I mean. 

By Mr. Choate : 

Q. The Cup races? A. The Cup races. 

By Mr. Askwith : 

Q. I am upon another point. Would it not be 
an advantage for her, assuming that she was light- 
ened, compared with what she had been before the 
ballast was taken out at New Rochelle, to return 
to the same trim that she was in before the ballast 
was taken out? A. We didn't know then whether 
she was in the right trim or not. 

Q. You had been sailing all Summer. You told 
me that you were satisfied with the trim that she 
sailed in on this race in July, and the first Cup 
race, did you not? A. We were satisfied the boat 
had stability enough. In fact, more than she 
needed. 

Q. She was too stiff? A. Yes, sir; plenty stiff 
enough. 

Q. Had you taken the whole Summer to come to 
that conclusion? A. No; I don't know as I had, 
altogether. 

Q. Have you ever altered a boat just before an 
important race, by taking all her furniture out of 
her and putting in a new kind of ballast? A. I 
don't remember any particular instance. I think 
we have some, yes. 

Q. Do you think it a wise sort of thing to lighten 
a vessel just before a race? A. I do, yes. I 
thought her 

Q. Altering the ballast and taking a ballast 
which you did not know what it came to? A. A 
ballast that common sense would teach a man what 
to do better with. 

Q. Did you do it by rule of thumb? A. I guess 
at it — what little experience I have had. Yes, that 



298 



is it. I don't pretend to know so much about the 
theoretical part of it as some. I am not an expert 
about this business at all. 

Q. You like to have ballast in that suits best 
according to your practical views of sailing? Is 
that it? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. When did they begin to cut these pigs up ? 
A. Immediately we got the Palmer alongside, after 
dropping her anchor. 

Q. What time of the day was that? A. Some- 
where near — we commenced to cut the pigs, I 
think it was about 8:35, if I remember right or 
8 :40, or somewheres there. 

Q. Who told the men to cut the pigs up? A. I 
did. 

Q. How many were occupied upon it? A. Oh, 
I couldn't say; a good part of the men were 
around. Some were passing the pigs out about as 
fast as we cut them, and stood ready to pass them 
back. 

Q. With the chisel and hammer? A. Yes, sir; 
chisel and hammer — or chisel and maul. 

Q. An odd way to cut up lead ; an old-fashioned 
way? A. I never saw any better way to cut them, 
unless you had a steam saw-mill to saw them. 
That is the only way to cut it. They cut it very 
nicely and very quickly, in about three-quarters of 
an hour. 

Q. Was there any more lead on the Hattie 
Palmer? A. Not to my knowledge; no, sir. If 
there had been I would have known it. 

Q. You cannot tell me the weight of the cots 
that were taken out ? A. I could not tell. I would 
not like to say positively. I should judge that 
there was some 

Q. What kind of cots were they? Iron? A. 
They were these iron-framed cots, a part of them. 
Twenty-two — yes, there were thirty of those, I 
think or nearly thirty. I should judge that they 
would weight about in the neighborhood of forty 



299 



pounds apiece, with the mattresses and blankets 
and all attached. Then there was some dozen or 
more cots that would be pretty nearly about the 
same amount. Twelve or fifteen hundred weight, 
probably. 

Mr. CTioate : Is that all? 

Mr. AsTcwith : Yes, that is all. 

The Chairman : Is there any other witness 
that you particularly desire to discharge to- 
night? 

Mr. Choate : Mr. Hyslop would take about 
five minutes. We will examine him. I would 
like to ask Capt. Haff what the condition of 
the water about the Defender was on the 
morning of the 7th, when Mr. Iselin came on 
board, and from there until you left your posi- 
tion. 

Capt. Haff : Some little swell, coming in 
from the Hook. Naturally would be with the 
sea that was outside. 

Mr. Choate : The boat did not lie entirely 
still? 

Capt. Haff : ~No, sir. I want to say, gentle- 
men, that that boat sailed those races with 
just every pound of weight aboard of her that 
she was measured with, and not a pound more. 

Mr. Choate : If your opinion had been asked 
after she had been stripped, would you have 
put in the two tons or the three tons of lead — 
if you had had your way? 

Capt. Haff : If I had had my way, I would 
have taken out every pound of lead she had in 
her, to sail those races with, whether it blowed 
high or blowed low. 

John Hyslop, being called as a witness on be- 
half of Mr. Iselin, testifies as follows : 

Direct examination by Mr. Choate : 

Q. I understand that you were the official meas- 



300 



urer who made the two measurements of the De- 
fender, one on Friday and the other on Sunday? 
A. That is correct. 

Q. The 6th and 8th? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Were those two measurements correctly 
made? A. They were. 

Q. On Sunday, after the re-measurement, she 
was marked upon the stem, and with a red disc on 
either side, at the water line? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You saw that done? A. Yes, sir, 

Q. You know that was correct, according to the 
measurement then taken? A. Yes, sir. Let me 
say that all those measurements were made with 
the joint observation and concurrence of Mr. Wat- 
son and Mr. Herreshoff and myself ; each and all 
of them. 

Q. Have you seen the Defender since those 
marks were put on? A. I have. 

Q. When last? A. Last Saturday. 

Q. At New Rochelle? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And is the mark upon the stem, and the two 
discs, exactly as they were placed there after the 
measurement was made? A. They are there, to all 
appearances, identically as left. 

By Mr. Rives : 

Q. I would like to ask you a question about the 
marking of the boat on the first occasion, on Fri- 
day. Did you put any marks on her deck? A. 
The customary marking. 

Q. What is the customary marking? A. Simply 
a round-headed copper tack, perpendicular to the 
intersection of the water with the stem or stern, as 
the case may be. 

Q. That was driven in on the deck of the De- 
fender, and also on the deck of the Valkyrie III. ? 
A. It was. 

Q. You speak of that as a customary thing. 
How long has that been the custom? A. It has 
been the custom ever since I have measured for the 
New York Yacht Club. 



301 



Q. How long was that? A. I should say some- 
where about ten years. 

Q. Was it the custom in 1893? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Did you measure Valkyrie II. ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Did you mark with a tack on deck? A. Yes, 
sir. 

Q. There were no external marks put on the Val- 
kyrie or Vigilant, were there? A. No, sir. 

By Mr. Choate : 

Q. Did you preserve the batten that was used 
in measuring on Friday? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How came you to do that? A. I did that as 
a result of a conference held between Mr. Canfield, 
Mr. Watson — I think Mr. Rogers took a part in it, 
I know as to the others — and myself. 

Q. What was the conference, and when did it 
take place? A. That conference took place on 
Friday afternoon, the 6th of September. 

Q. Before the measurement? A. After the 
measurement, and had reference to putting marks 
on the two boats that had been measured. There 
was not at that time an agreement as to which 
would be the best way of marking. It was seen 
that it would be exceedingly difficult to change 
any mark under the stern of either boat ; and, if 
painted — I think it was allowed by every one 
engaged in the discussion — that if painted it would 
not be easy to observe any marked place at the 
intersection of the water at the stern. It was more 
easy to place such a mark at the stem and to dis- 
cern it, and it was agreed that such mark would be 
satisfactory. Mr. Watson suggested that a mark 
placed on each side about the rudder, resembling, 
as he said, a Plimsoll mark, a mark customary, I 
believe, on the other side, and put on trading ves- 
sels, beyond which depth they are not permitted 
to be loaded. It is an arrangement of the Com- 
mercial Marine. Mr. Watson's suggestion was 
that would be a satisfactory mark, and I was 



302 



asked, if I came on Sunday morning, if the 
boats were there on Sunday morning, I could 
arrange to be there to mark them. At that time 
the Valkyrie, as I recollect, had gone away. I 
stated that I would be there on Sunday morning 
if the boats were there, and the best recollection I 
have is that an hour was named on Sunday morn- 
ing that I should be there, and the two vessels 
should be there. 

Q. What hour was that? A. My recollection is 
ten o'clock. 

Q. Did you hear anything about a re-measure- 
ment to be made on Sunday, that evening, Friday? 
A. No, sir. Nothing was known by me. Nothing 
was mentioned or suggested about a re-measure- 
ment, but to re-mark, to put those marks — to mark 
the spot to which the measurement was made on 
Friday — put those marks there on Sunday, it was 
necessary that the batten should be retained ; and 

that I first ascertained from some one connected 

with the yard, I do not remember who it was ; but 
the first person I came across who could tell me as 
to the customs of the yard. I first ascertained 
whether it would be practicable to get into the 
yard, to secure entrance on Sunday. I was told it 
would be ; that there was a man always there, who 
could enter the carpenter shop and procure the bat- 
ten if it was deposited there. The batten was left 
in the charge of Captain Half, to send up immedi- 
ately to the carpenter shop for preservation, and it 
was found there on that Sunday following. 

Q. Will you look at this letter that I now show 
you and say if you received it from Mr. Canfield 
Saturday evening, the 7th? A. Yes, sir, I recog- 
nize the letter. 

Mr. Choate : I will read that, and it may be 
written into the minutes. 



303 
" Septembee 7th, 1895. 



a 



John Hyslop, Esq., 

Measurer, 1ST. Y. Y. C. 

Deae Sie: The America's Cup Committee re- 
quest that when you mark the yachts Valkyrie and 
Defender to-morrow at 10 a.m. you measure the 
L.W.L. length of each vessel again, in order to 
verify the measurement of L.W.L. taken on Friday. 
As this is only a check for the satisfaction of the 
Committee, you will kindly send the measurements 
to the America's Cup Committee at theJS". Y. Y. C. 
Please acknowledge the receipt of this by the 
bearer. Yours truly, 

A. Cass Canfield, 
Secretary America's Cup Committee. 

(Over.) 

P.S. The Committee wish very much you could 
arrange to go with us on the tug Luckenback, which 
carries the Regatta Committee. She leaves foot of 
26th Street, East River, at 8 a.m." 

Q. Did you on the same night, or at an early 
hour on Saturday morning receive this other letter 
from Mr. Canlield? A. I received that letter about 
an hour after the other. An hour or an hour and 
a half. 

Mr. Choate : I will read this : 

" Septembee 7, 10:15 p.m. 

My Deae Me. Hyslop : 

You have misunderstood my letter. I asked you 
to measure the two yachts to-morrow at 10 a.m. at 
Erie Basin, it having been arranged that you were 
to be there to mark them at either end of L. W. L. 
with Mr. George L. Watson. I also asked you to 
go on the Regatta Committee Boat during the. 
racing days, not to-morrow, but next Tuesday, 
leaving at 8 a.m. foot of 26th Street, East River. 

Yours truly, 

A. Cass Canfield." 



304 



Mr. Hyslop : Yes, I remember that. 

Q. One more question. What do you say as to 
the practicability of measuring yachts iu the dark, 
at night? A. Yes, sir; I have attempted that. 

Q. You have attempted it? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. With what result? A. The attempt was 
made with the Valkyrie. 

By Mr. Rives : 

Q. Which Yalkyrie? A. The Yalkyrie, the last 
boat here — Yalkyrie III. The attempt was made 
on the night of September 11, to measure the Yal- 
kyrie in that way. A ton or a larger quantity — it 
may have been a ton and a half — of ballast was, as 
I was informed, taken from the Yalkyrie. She was 
in her dock. This was removed and it was desired 
that she should be re-measured, so that in the race 
that was intended to take place on Thursday, the 
day following, she could have the advantage of the 
lessened measurement on the load line. I went 
there. My information was that she would be afloat 
about four or five o'clock, I think. But I went 
over there at that time and found that it was mis- 
information. The boat was not afloat until after 
nine o'clock that evening ; probably nearer ten. Mr. 
Watson and myself had been discussing the possi- 
bility of measuring her when she should be afloat 
and I think he conceded the point that it would be 
pretty well impracticable. But, desiring that no 
injustice should be done to the boat, and no occa- 
sion for complaint should be given, I remained 
there, that there might be no doubt whatever about 
it, and prepared to make the attempt. Lanterns 
were secured, a certain number of electric lights 
were arranged about the yards, and Mr. Watson 
and myself made the best efforts to secure even an 
approximate measurement of the boats, but it was 
utterly futile, and so conceded by Mr. Watson, and, 
of course, acknowledged by me. 

Q. You do not consider it possible? A. It is not. 



305 



It is utterly impossible with, a modern vessel such 
as the Valkyrie and Defender. 

Q. Did you understand this was to prepare the 
Valkyrie on the third race on which she went over 
the line? A. Certainly, yes. 

Q. Who gave you the information? 

Mr. Hyslojp : Who asked me that I should 
measure it? 

Mr. Hives : Yes ; who told you what the 
plan was, for taking out a ton and a half or 
putting in a ton and a half? 
A. I do not know that I had the information, 
I may have had, until I went to the dock ; but I 
didn't know that it was desired that a new measure- 
ment should be obtained. As to who informed me 
I cannot now state. 

Q. Was it to be made after the removal or the 
addition of a ton and a half? A. A ton, or what- 
ever it might be ; I can't say as to the quantity. I 
presume that quantity of ballast was taken out on 
Sunday, the 11th, and the measurement was wanted 
to ascertain the extent to which her water line was 
shortened. 

Q, Was Lord Dunraven aboard then? A. He 
was not ; not in my sight. 

By Mr. AsJcwitli : 

Q. All this new alteration of the Valkyrie that 
you are alluding to is, under the terms of the 
agreement and under the rules of the New York 
Yacht Club, that if a vessel desires either to in- 
crease her load water line length, or her spar 
measurements, she must obtain a new measurement 
by special appointment, before the next race, un- 
der that rule? A. Precisely. 

Q. Are you the person who is responsible for the 
term ' ' physically impossible ' ' in the America's Cup 
Committee report? A. I do not remember the use 
of such a term. 

Q. The term ' ' physically impossible ' ' to re- 



306 



measure her that night? A. I had nothing to do 
with writing that report. I am not a member of 
the Cup Committee. 

Q. You have not seen that? A. I do not recog- 
nize the term. It is, nevertheless, true. 

Q. When did you arrange with Mr. George L. 
Watson, as alluded to in this letter of September 
7th? Was that the arrangement made the evening 
of September 7th? That is the supplementary letter 
to the first one Mr. Choate read. 

Mr. Hyslop : When did I arrange with Mr. 
George Watson to make the measurements 
here referred to? Is that the question? 
Mr. Askwith: Yes. 
A. On Friday. 

Q. Was Lord Dunraven present? A. I believe 
he was nearby. That is my recollection. I have 
a further impression, I will not say it is a matter 
of distinct recollection, that there was some con- 
ference between Mr. Watson and his Lordship in 
reference to the matter. 

Q. There had been a conversation about marking 
upon the Friday with some members of the Cup 
Committee and yourself, had there not? A. That 
is precisely what I have been referring to ; yes. 

Q. Was that after the Valkyrie had been meas- 
ured? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Was she out? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And Mr. Watson stayed behind for the 
measuring of the Defender? A. He was — yes, he 
stayed behind, and that may have been a part of 
his object. I do not know. 

Q. Was not Lord Dunraven absent? A. I re- 
member that Mr. Watson was behind and the Val- 
kyrie was away. 

Q. The re- measurement came as a new thing to 
you on Saturday evening? A. It did. 

Q. Are you aware that as long ago as January, 
1894, attempts were made to suggest that there 
should be an alteration in the rules as to marking, 



307 



after the races between the Vigilaat and Valkyrie 
II. in 1893? A. I have no knowledge or recollection 
of that. It may have been within my knowledge 
at the time, but it is not a matter with which I 
should have officially to deal with. 

Q. Do you know that Mr. Tarns, of this Club, was 
requested to take the subject up officially, as it 
would be embodied in any rules that would be 
made to govern a contest between an English and 
an American yacht in the future? A. Yes, sir. It 
would not be a matter that it would be necessary 
to bring under my cognizance in any way. 

By Mr. Whitney : 

Q. In the statement of Lord Dunraven there is a 
reference made to you: "I may mention that 
according to Mr. Hyslop, the official measurer, the 
Defender was some six inches shorter when meas- 
ured for the Cup races than when measured for the 
Gf-oelet Cup race." What do you say with refer- 
ence to that? A. I have not the slightest recollec- 
tion of anything of the kind. As a matter of actual 
fact there was a remarkable coincidence between 
the measurement of the Defender — the first meas- 
urement, made about the 16th of August — and 
the Yalkyrie measurement; they precisely coin- 
cided. I had no recollection of having mentioned 
anything — such as "previous measurement of the 
Defender" — to Lord Dunraven, but the matter 
was sufficiently remarkable, and it would not have 
been at all wonderful when I came to measure the 
Valkyrie to mention that coincidence ; but I have 
not the slightest recollecti on of doing so or making 
any comparison between the first measurement of 
the Defender and any subsequent one. I have no 
knowledge of it whatever. 

By Mr. AsTcwith : 

Q. Was the Defender measured for the Goelet 
Cup? A. No, sir; there was only one measure- 



308 



ment of the Defender previous to that of September 
6th. That measurement was made on August 
16th. 

Q. Was that the first of the trial races? A. 
Well, the measurement taken then, I suppose, 
would determine all preceding events, as between 
the Vigilant and the Defender. That was, how- 
ever, the date of the first measurement. 

Q. Was that the first and only occasion on which 
you had made a measurement? A. That was the 
first occasion on which I measured the Defender — 
the 16th of August. 

By Mr. Whitney : 

Q. Have you the statistics showing the third 
measurement? You measured the Defender three 
times? A. Yes, I measured her three times, August 
16th, September 6th and Sunday the 8th, three 
measurements. 

By Mr. Choate : 

Q. It has not been stated on authority yet how 
much difference you actually found in each vessel, 
between the Friday and the Sunday. Will you 
state? A. The Defender was one-sixteenth of an 
inch less. The Valkyrie was one- eighth of an inch 
more. 

Q. And that was as near as you could expect 
they would come to it, with the same trim, con- 
dition and ballast as before? A. Well, sir, it 
was commonly spoken of as a thing impossible 
to do. 

Q. To make them twice exactly the same? A. It 
was done to my satisfaction ; it was done, as far 
as there was any expression of it, equally to the 
satisfaction of the representatives of the contesting 
yachts, Mr. Watson, on the one hand, and Mr. 
Herreshoff on the other ; of course, to my satisfac- 
tion. 

By Mr. Rives : 

Q. I would like to call your attention to a state- 



309 



ment on pages 4 and 5 of Lord Dunraven's pam- 
phlet, in which, he says that he was under the im- 
pression that the rule of the New York Yacht 
Club meant that a vessel should be marked on the 
stem and stern in such a way as to make the marks 
externally visible ; that he learned this at a meeting 
of the Cup Committee on August 30 ; that accord- 
ing to the practice of the New York Yacht Club, 
the L. W. L. length is marked by a couple of tacks 
on the deck. I understood you to say that same 
practice existed in the Summer of 1893, when 
Valkyrie II. was here? A. It did, and for many 
years previous to that. 

Q. And at that time you did mark Valkyrie II. 
in that way? A. In that way. 

Q. And in only that way? A. In only that 
way. 

Q. So that Lord Dunraven must be mistaken in 
saying that he learned this on August 30, 1895? A. 
Precisely. Most certainly the Valkyrie II. was 
marked in the same way. 

By Mr. Whitney : 

Q. Have you got the figures showing what your 
three measurements were of the Defender? A. I 
can procure them very readily. I have got my 
note book in my overcoat pocket. I will get it. 
It is right here. 

Q. Do you mean the water line measurement? 
Mr. Whitney : The water line measurement. 
A. (Continuing, after looking at note book.) 
August 16, 88 T 8 o 5 o ^ eet - September 6, 88 T \ 5 -g- Sep- 
tember 11, 88 T VoV 

By Mr. Morgan : 

Q. September 8, that was, was it not? A. The 
last one was September 11. I measured her on 
Wednesday the 11th also. I measured her on the 
8th and also on September 11th. 

Q. The Defender? 



310 



Mr. Hyslop : Wait a minute, let me see ! 

The Chairman : You have given the meas- 
urement on the 8th. 

Mr. Hyslop : There is an explanation there. 
I shall mislead you. I did measure her. I 
measured the rig on September 11, but the 
water-line measurement was taken on Sunday. 

The Chairman : On the 8th? 

Mr. Hyslop : The water-line measurement 
was taken on the 8th, but there was a spar 
carried away and it was necessary to remeas- 
ure the rig on September 11. 88.445 is the 
measurement of the water line as taken on Sun- 
day the 8th. 

Mr. Whitney : Then the three measurements 
of the Defender's water line were, first 88.85, 
second 88.45, and the next 88.445. 

Mr. Hyslop : Precisely. 

Mr. Aslcwith : In respect to this rule that 
you are alluding to, Lord Dunraven only says : 
" I was under the impression." The rule itself 
is absolutely distinct. In reference to the 
interpretation that appears to have been, by 
custom, changed. 

The Chairman : We will take a recess until 
ten o'clock, Monday morning. 

At six o'clock p.m. the Committee adjourned. 



311 



New Yokk, Monday, December 30, 1895. 

10 o'clock A.M. 

Mr. Choate : I would like to ask the Com- 
mittee to mark in Lord Dunraven's pamphlet, 
on page 48, the letter from Mr. Canfield to 
him, of September 11th, 1895, in which it is 
said that it was impossible to get a measure- 
ment of Valkyrie's L.W.L., as she was not 
afloat until after dark; showing that before 
any publication by him he understood very 
well the idea, at least, that prevailed in the 
Yacht Club, that a measurement after dark 
was out of the question. 

There are one or two gentlemen who would 
like to leave early, and I will call them first. I 
will first call Mr. Duncan. 

William Butler Duncan, Je., being called as 
a witness on behalf of Mr. Iselin, testified as fol- 
lows: 

By Mr. Choate : 

Q. You were on board the Defender on the day 
of the races? A. On all of the races, excepting the 
first race sailed down the bay. 

Q. You mean all the races during the Summer? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Mr. AsTcwith : What position does he oc- 
cupy? 

Mr. Choate : He was merely one of the gen- 
tlemen who went, as a friend, on the races. 
He was not on the Committee. 
Q. Have you had considerable experience in 
yachting? A. Yes, sir ; I have. 



312 



Q. Did you have any naval experience or educa- 
tion? A. I was in the navy. I graduated at the 
Naval Academy, and resigned after six years. 

Q. You were entirely familiar with the Defender? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You knew the fact, I suppose, that she sailed 
without any ballast during the trial races? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. And you knew how she had been stripped 
down, and of the substitution of the three tons of 
lead? A. I was not present when it was done. I 
heard it had been done. I saw it when I arrived 
on board the morning of the 7th. 

Q. You went on her on that day, September 7th? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. On Saturday? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Would your experience enable you to per- 
ceive if, on that day, she had ten to fourteen tons 
more ballast in her? A. Yes, I think so. 

Q. You saw what she had inside of her, did you 
not, above the cabin floor? A. Yes, sir; I took 
particular notice of it, as it was the first time I had 
been on board of her since she was stripped. I 
went all over her. 

Q. Was there anything, to your knowledge, in 
her, except the three tons of lead? A. I did not 
see anything. 

Q. Did you see anything that would hold any 
weight? A. Nothing at all. 

Q. And did you see her when measured, either 
the day before or the day after that race? A. I 
saw her the day after the re-measurement. 

Q. You saw how she set in the water in the Erie 
Basin? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You went on board of her with Mr. Iselin and 
his personal party on the morning of the 7th? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. Can you compare her, in your recollection, as 
she set in the water that day and the next day, in 
the Erie Basin? A. She set just about the same. 



313 

Q. If she had set three or four inches higher in 
the water the next day, would you have been able 
to observe it? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. I want one other point from your knowledge 
as an expert. As to the possibility of judging, as 
you approach a yacht like that, on the side, whether 
she has a list on? A. It is impossible, absolutely; 
unless the list was very, very marked. 

Q. I mean a list of one or two degrees? A. It 
is simply impossible. 

Q. Why do you say that? A. Because you 
wouldn't have anything to judge by at all. The 
only thing you could judge by would be the incli- 
nation of the deck, and that would be so small 
you couldn't possibly see it. 

Q. And as to the possibility of measuring by the 
eye the exact immersion and the exact load-water 
line; what do you say as to that? A. You could 
only do it by taking a mark on her end, or on one 
end and both sides. You could not do it any other 
way. 

Q. That is, if she were marked outside? A. If 
she were marked outside ; or there was some mark 
you could go by. 

Q. When did you first hear of the charge that 
the load water line had been changed? A. In the 
paper the day after the meetin g — I have forgotten 
the exact date ; I think it was October 25. 

By Mr. Rives : 

Q. Did you say that you were at the first meas- 
urement? A. No; at the re-measurement. 

Q. Do you remember what the state of the 
weather was on the morning of the first race, Sat- 
urday? A. Well, there was a light breeze, about 
east northeast ; somewhere around there ; and 
there was a little ripple on the water when we went 
on board ; not very much ; and there was a little 
motion of the boat from the swell outside ; not 
very much. 



314 



Q. Was the sky overcast? A. The sky was 
overcast. 

Q. How was it on Sunday, the day of the re- 
measurement? A. A fine day, I think. 

Mr. CTioate : When she was in the Basin. 
Mr. Hives : Yes. 
Q. How about the sky? Was the sun shining, 
do you think you could remember? A. I do not 
think it was ; I am not positive. 

By Mr. Choate : 

Q. You say there was some movement of the 
water, as she lay at anchor there when you boarded 
her? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And when Lord Dunraven put Mr. Hender- 
son on board? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Was she both rolling and pitching a little? 
A. I should think she was rolling a very little. 
There was a slight motion. There was not very 
much, but there was a motion to her. 

Q. I will ask you one other question as an ex- 
pert. As wind and water were that morning, would 
you have deemed it desirable to have had more or 
less ballast in her? A. I would have lightened 
her all I could with less ballast. 

Q. And as to carrying any, if you could have 
got rid of it under the rules? A. I should like to 
have seen it all out of her. 

Q. Why? A. It was light weather ; light breeze. 
She was a very powerful boat and did not need it 
in light weather. 

Q. Would do better without it? A. Would do 
better without it. 

By Mr. Ask with : 

Q. Just one or two questions. Would you agree 
with this description of the weather on the night 
before : ' ' That the wind was fresh east and had the 
appearance of being a strong breeze the next day. 
We expected a stormy day?" A. It depends on 
what time in the night. It lightened up before we 



315 



went to bed. It was certainly that way in the after- 
noon, yes. 

Mr. AsTcwith : That is Mr. Herreshoff's state- 
ment of the weather. 

Mr. Duncan : It was blowing hard all the 
afternoon. 

Q. Would you agree with this : That a man of 
experience, with his eye trained to it, as it were, 
would detect a very small alteration in the trim or 
immersion — an alteration would be quite apparent 
to him that would be so small that it would not be 
apparent to anybody who was not an expert or 
accustomed to it? A. Yes, sir, in smooth water, 
where you could get a chance to look at the boats. 
I do not say, if it was small. I do not say that he 
could tell a very small difference, no. I do not 
think anybody could tell a very small difference. 

Q. A very small difference? A. No. 

Q. But an expert, say, would be able to detect 
what would be a small difference? A. An expert 
sailor who was accustomed to the boat, and had 
seen her all the time, in and out, and had been 
looking at her for a long time, would know possi- 
bly a reasonable difference ; but not very slight. 

Q. Even though it might be difficult to see a list, 
approaching a boat from either the port or the star- 
board side, if a person, examining the boat, should 
go around by the bows and the stern, a list could 
fairly and easily have been detected? A. If he 
went well ahead of her and well astern of her. 

Q. You were not present at the measurement? 
A. Not the first day, no. 

Q. You are unable to say then, of course, through 
having examined any marks upon the boat at the 
time of measurement, whether those marks ap- 
peared or did not appear at the time when she 
sailed? A. I was not present at the first measure- 
ment, no. 

Mr. AsTcwith : I think those are all the ques- 
tions I wish to ask. 



316 



Mr. Choate : We will next call Mr. Busk, 
one of the Cup Committee. 

Joseph ~R. Busk, being called as a witness on 
behalf of Mr. Iselin, testified as follows : 

By Mr. Choate : 

Q. You were one of the Cup Committee? A. I 
was. 

Q. Were you present at a meeting held on Friday 
morning at Mr. Smith's office, in consequence of a 
letter received from Lord Dunraven, asking that 
the two yachts should be marked? A. No, I was 
not. 

Q. You were present on the Committee's boat on 
the day of the race, the 7th? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Do you remember Mr. Fish coming on board? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Did he communicate to the Committee at all 
any demand on the part of Lord Dunraven that the 
Committee should take charge of the two boats, or 
put a keeper or watch or representative on board 
both or either of the boats? A. No, he did not. 

Q. I believe you are an experienced yachtsman? 
A. I have done a good deal of yachting. 

Q. You know the Defender? A. Yes, sir; but 
not intimately at all. 

Mr. Choate : Then I will not ask you the 
question. I was going to ask your judgment, 
if you could form one, as to what was desirable 
for her, as the wind and weather were on that 
day of the 7th. 

Mr. BusJc : I could only judge that from 
having seen her in her trial races. 

Mr. Choate : I will not ask you that. 
Q. The pencil memorandum that has been pro- 
duced here was exhibited to the Committee? A. 
Yes, sir. You mean the one Mr. Fish made? 
Mr. Choate : Yes. 
Mr. Busk : Yes, he exhibited it at the time. 



317 



Q. What did he say, if anything, about the 
vessels being re-measured, or re-measured that 
night? A. If I remember, that Lord Dunraven 
wished them re-measured that night, if possible. 

Q. What was your judgment about it, as a prac- 
tical or possible thing that night? A. Quite im- 
possible. 

Q. Why? A. In the first place, the boats at 
that time were twenty-five miles away from New 
York. They had to tow up. They had to be 
docked, which was a difficult and dangerous thing 
at night. The boats drew a great deal of water. 
And after having got them in, there would be no 
proper light by which to measure them. You 
cannot do that. It is a very difficult, intricate 
measurement, without good daylight. 

Q. It requires great nicety ? A. Great nicety. 

Q. Have you ever known it to be done at night? 
A. No, not with this class of boats. 

By Mr . AsTcwith : 

Q. You considered this to be somewhat a serious 
matter when Mr. Fish reported it to you, I sup- 
pose? A. I did. 

Q. Did you consider that re-measurement the 
next day, eighteen hours afterward, was sufficient 
to show what the state of the boat was at the time 
that he reported to you ? 

Mr. Buslc ; Sufficient to what? 
Mr. AsTcwith : Sufficient to show what the 
state of the boat was at the time he reported it 
to you? 
A. No. 

Q. You said that the boats were five and twenty 
miles away. They were not five and twenty miles 
away at the time that he reported it to you, were 
they? A. It might have been four and twenty. 

Q. Was not Mr. Fish put on board the Commit- 
tee boat from the Valkyrie almost immediately 
after the race? A. Immediately after. . 



318 



Q. And did tie not report the matter at once to 
the representative of the Cup Committee? A. At 
once. 

Q. The Yalkyrie was not then twenty-five miles 
away? A. That is my estimate of the distance. 
Q. Twenty-five miles away? 

Mr. Hives : You are at cross purposes. The 
Yalkyrie was twenty-five miles away from the 
Basin. 

Mr. Busk : She was that far away from the 
place where she would be re-measured. 

Mr. Aslcwith : You left the impression on 
my mind that she was twenty -five miles away 
from the boat. 

Mr. Buslc : Oh, no ; she was close by when 
he was put on. 
Q. She was within a few boats' lengths? A. 
Within a few boats' lengths, yes, sir. 

Q. Even if an exact re-measurement in the man- 
ner in which it had been conducted upon Septem- 
ber 6th, and upon September 8th, were not pos- 
sible, would it not be possible for a measurer, 
having a batten to check by the marks — these cop- 
per tacks upon the deck — to see whether the boats 
were one and a half, two, or three inches deeper? 
A. That would involve a calculation of the water- 
line length. What you want to get at is, whether 
you could figure the water line length there. 

Mr. Astiwith : There were these tacks put 
upon deck? 
Mr. Busk: Yes. 
Q. If they are of any service at all, would not a 
measurer with a batten be able, after investigation 
of say ten minutes or a quarter of an hour, to tell 
whether the boats were two or three inches deeper 
than they had been when they had measured them 
before? A. He might, or he might not. I cannot 
say. I should think it would be a very difficult 
matter. 



319 

Q. You are not, of course, a measurer yourself? 
A. No, I am not a measurer. 

Q. You cannot say so upon skilled knowledge? 
A. No, I cannot do it. It would be a very difficult 
thing. You understand the shape of the boats? 
Mr. Askwith : Yes. I think that is all. 
Mr. Choate : We will ask Mr. Rogers, one 
of the Cup Committee. 

Archibald Rogers, being called as a witness on 
behalf of Mr. Iselin, testified as follows : 

By Mr. Choate : 

Q. You were one of the Cup Committee? A. I 
was. 

Q. And were on board when Mr. Fish was put 
on board by Lord Dunraven? A. I was. 

Q. Will you state what he reported to the Com- 
mittee? A. I understood him to say that he had a 
serious matter to place before us, and that he 
thought that a committee meeting should be called 
at once. The members of the Committee assem- 
bled in the stern of the boat, and he produced a 
paper, written in pencil, which he explained he 
had made on board the Valkyrie. That not wish- 
ing to trust entirely to his memory, he had thought 
it better to write down the points, and that he had 
read them over to Lord Dunraven, and asked him 
to make any suggestion as to their correctness or 
not. Do you wish me to go farther? 

Q. Will you state whatever he said as to any re- 
quest of Lord Dunraven accompanying that? 
A. It was rather dark, and I think that he read 
the paper over. At all events it was read to the 
Committee. He then said that Lord Dunraven 
would like a re-measurement that night, if possi- 
ble. He also said that he had read this document 
to Dunraven ; and I am under the impression that 
Mr. Fish said that Lord Dunraven had made one 
or two corrections or interlineations or something 



320 



of that sort on this memorandum. That is all I re- 
member of Mr. Fish's statement. 

Q. Did he say anything about a request for the 
Committee to take charge of one or either of the 
boats? A. Not a syllable. 

Q. Or put a representative on board? A. Not a 
word. 

Q. What do you say as to the reason why the 
request to re-measure that night was not complied 
with? A. We were too far away from still water. 

Q. If it had been morning or noon? A. If it 
had been in the middle of the day it might have 
been possible. It would have been possible, of 
course. 

By tlie Chairman : 

Q. What time did the races terminate? A. I 
think Mr. Fish came aboard about six o'clock. I 
cannot be positive, but I know it was dark very 
shortly after, while we were discussing this com- 
munication. 

Mr. Hives : The Valkyrie passed the line 
just before half -past five. 

By Mr. Choate : 

Q. To get up into the Basin, and get the meas- 
urer there, and have the measurement done before 
dark was impossible? A. Absolutely impossible. 

Q. Did you or the Cup Committee make any 
communication to Mr. Iselin about this? A. I 
cannot speak for the rest of the Cup Committee. 
I did not. 

Q. What experience have you had in yachting? 
A. I have owned several racing boats, English cut- 
ters and so on. 

Q. Were you on the Defender either the day 
before or after the 7th, in the Erie Basin? A. I 
was on the Defender the day before the race ; on 
the 6th. 

Q. When she was measured? A. When she 
was measured. Just after. 



321 



Q. Did you see how she set in the water that day 
in the Erie Basin? A. Just casually. I was not 
paying any particular attention to her notation. 

Q. Would you or could you have noticed, as you 
approached her on the side, as you did when you 
boarded her on the morning of the 7th, whether 
she sat deeper in the water or not? A. I beg par- 
don. I did not board her on the 7th. 

Q. You did not? A. No, I was not on board of 
her on the 7th. It was the 6th when she was in 
the Erie Basin. 

Q. You were one of the sub -committee appointed 
on Friday morning, as it has been testified here, 
with Mr. Canfield, in consequence of the receipt of 
a letter from Lord Dunraven, asking for a marking 
of the vessel? A. Yes, sir, I was. 

Q. Were you at Mr. Smith's office at the meet- 
ing of the Committee? A. I was. 

Q. Did you undertake to act with Mr. Canfield 
on that sub-committee? A. I was so appointed. 

Q. What did you do in consequence? A. I pro- 
ceeded with Mr. Canfield over to the Erie Basin. 

Q. What happened there, especially any com- 
munication with either Mr. Watson or Lord Dun- 
raven? A. It took us some time to get aboard on 
account of the crowd. The Defender was then 
being measured, and as soon as an opportunity oc- 
curred we hailed one of the officers on the deck 
and they sent a small boat and we were put on 
board. The Valkyrie not being in the Basin, we 
then went below and told Mr. Iselin of our func- 
tion, and said that proper marks should be affixed 
in accordance with Lord Dunraven' s request. Mr. 
Iselin replied that he saw no objection. On the con- 
trary, he thought it was an extremely good thing, 
and he was very glad it was going to be done. 
Mr. Kersey then took us out on the Pulver to the 
Bridgeport, where we were received by Lord Dun- 
raven, and then we communicated to Lord Dun- 
raven the fact that we had come there to tell him 



322 



that while we did not understand exactly how these 
marks were to be affixed, yet that the Committee 
had decided that the marks were to be affixed in 
any way that was agreeable to him, and that we 
were perfectly willing to have his representative, 
Mr. Watson, affix these marks on both the boats. 

By Mr. Rives : 

Q. You said that to Lord Dunraven personally? 
A. We did say that personally to Lord Dunraven. 
It was thoroughly discussed with him and with 
Mr. Watson. 

By Mr. CJioate : 

Q. Had the Valkyrie then left the Basin? A. 
The Valkyrie had then left the Erie Basin and Mr. 
Kersey, in going out on the tug, made the remark 
to me that it would be impossible for her to come 
back, for she had grounded ; she touched on going 
out, when she was towed out. 

Q. Does your experience enable you to form a 
judgment as to whether, as the wind and weather 
were on the morning of the 7th, it would have been 
desirable to have the Defender lighter or more 
heavily weighted? A. My experience would tell 
me that it would have been desirable to have had 
her lighter. 

Q. Why? A. Because she is a boat of immense 
power, and any of the loose ballast she had for 
trimming inside, if taken out, would enable her to 
go faster. 

Q. You arranged, as you understood, to have 
them come back Sunday? A. Well, the instruc- 
tions to us were to have these marks affixed on 
Sunday. 

By Mr. Aslcwith : 

Q. What time in the morning of Friday was it 
that you had this meeting with Mr. Canlield? Was 
it the sub-committee meeting you speak of? A. No, 
sir ; it was a regular meeting of the committee at Mr. 



323 



Smith's office, somewhere between ten and 
twelve. 

Q. Do you know what time Mr. Canfield re- 
ceived the letter asking for the alteration in the 
marking? A. I do not. 

Q. Do you remember this phrase of it: "Mr. 
Young, the pilot I have engaged, informed me 
yesterday late that if Valkyrie was not measured 
before noon there would not be water enough to 
take her out before the next tide "? A. I do not 
call that to mind now. 

Q. You did not gather that you would be too 
late for the Valkyrie's measurement, when you 
went down to the Basin? A. No; because we 
hurried all we could. We could not get aboard 
for a long time. The Valkyrie had gone when we 
got there ; we certainly supposed when we left we 
would be there in time to catch the Valkyrie. 

Q. Are you aware that on the Saturday night the 
Valkyrie left at the Horseshoe their properties, 

their tender and clothes, dinner 

Mr. Rogers: Saturday night? 
Mr. AsTcwith : Yes. 
A. No ; I am not. 

Q. Are you aware they quite unexpectedly went 

to Bay Ridge, because the weather was not suitable 

for getting into the Horseshoe? A. No ; I am not. 

Q. I have a letter here from Lord Dunraven, in 

which he states : "So little idea had we of going to 

Bay Ridge Saturday night that we left our house, 

home and dinner at Sandy Hook in the City of 

Bridgeport, and our boats and anchor and chain." 

Mr. Choate : That is a letter written lately? 

Mr. AsTcwith : I received it this morning. I 

state that on his behalf, as a fact. 

The Chairman : Do you oifer that as evi- 
dence? 

Mr. AsTcwith : It certainly cannot be said to 
be legal evidence, but I appear as his repre- 
sentative, and he states it to me. 



324 



Mr. Choate : I am willing it should be 
added to his testimony. 

The Chairman : Very well. 

Mr. Choate : It is in reference to this ques- 
tion about the arrangement on Friday, I sup- 
pose? 

Mr. Askwith : Yes. 

Mr. Rives : In what respect do you suggest 
that the weather was unsuitable for going into 
Sandy Hook Bay on Saturday night? 

Mr. Askwith ; That is, I admit, only my 
memory of a conversation with him. These are 
the exact words that he uses himself. 

Mr. Rives ; There can be no foundation, in 
fact, I think. Sandy Hook Bay is an excel- 
lent anchorage at any time, except with a 
strong northwesterly gale. 

Mr. AsJcwith: I admit that it is only my 
memory. I think I would like to withdraw it, 
because I was not there, and I only speak of it 
from memory of a vague conversation as to 
the weather. 

Mr. Whitney : Let us get at it. What is it 
that you put in ? 

Mr. Askwith : I will read it again : " So 
little idea had we of going to Bay Ridge Sat- 
urday night that we left our house, home and 
dinner at Sandy Hook, in the City of Bridge- 
port, and our boats and anchor and chain." 
He means to imply that if any arrangement had 
been known to him or to any one on board the 
Valkyrie, they would have made arrangements 
for the City of Bridgeport leaving Sandy Hook 
and going to Bay Ridge, and for going back 
there in the evening rather than to Sandy 
Hook. 

Mr. Rogers: May I ask a question? Do 
you mean that Lord Dunraven did not under- 
stand that he was to have these marks affixed 
on Sunday? Is that the idea? 



325 



Mr. Aslcwilh : Yes. I think Mr. Canfield 
also implied that he had no intention of saying 
that he absolutely conveyed this either to Lord 
Dunraven or to Mr. Watson, but that the 
question of re-marking was discussed. That is 
my memory of the effect of his evidence. 

Mr. Choate ; It was the marking, as I under- 
stood. Mr. Canfield is here, if you want to 
ask him any further questions about it. 

Mr. Whitney : I understood Mr. Canfield' s 
testimony to be the same as Mr. Rogers' with 
regard to the marking of the boats. Is that 
your understanding, Mr. Askwith? 

Mr. Askwith : I will read, if I may, Lord 
Dunraven's words upon the subject of the con- 
versation about re-marking, when he says Mr. 
Canfield was present, and I suppose Mr. 
Rogers was also present. 

By Mr. Askwith ; 

Q. I think you went off to the City of Bridge- 
port and had lunch there ? A. No, we had a drink 
there. We did not take any lunch. 

Mr. Askwith ; These are Lord Dunraven's 
words, if you will follow them kindly : ' ' It is 
possible Canfield may have said something 
about Iselin's readiness to agree to outside 
marking. I remember a conversation with 
some one, Hyslop, I think, of the time of first 
measurement, on the subject of marking, and 
his saying there was no objection, but it could 
not be done. If Canfield and Rogers spoke 
about it to me at all it must have been merely 
that Iselin would not object, but that it was not 
practicable. Anyhow it was not done." 
Q. Does that coincide with your memory? A. 
It does not. Of course, if I may state more con- 
versationally, perhaps, what occurred, I think, 
perhaps, I could throw a little better light on the 
matter. Mr. Kersey was very impatient to get us 



326 

off, and he shouted to us — I know him quite well- 
to hurry up and get aboard ; and when we got on 
the Pulver I told him that the Committee were 
going to have the boats marked. ' ' Well, ' ' he said, 
" that is a pity." At least, this is about as near 
as I can come. " Because you can't get Valkyrie 
back again now. She touched going out." Then, 
when we were put aboard, there was a little con- 
fusion. Lord Dunraven 's daughters were there 
and some other people ; Mr. Henderson was there, 
and Mr. Duryea was there ; and there was some 
confusion. I remember one or two introductions. 
Lord Dunraven, I think, introduced Mr. Can- 
field and myself to Mr. Duryea, I think, whom we 
already knew. 

Q. Mr. Duryea was a friend of Mr. Iselin, whom 
Lord Dunraven requested to be the representative 
of the Defender for the last race? A. I don't know 
anything about that. Then the gentlemen, finally, 
and young ladies, were put on the Pulver, and when 
they departed Lord Dunraven asked us to come 
into his cabin ; and we had another communication 
to give him, which we gave to him at the same 
time, and we then told him that the marks would 
be affixed as he suggested ; then we had some little 
pleasantry, I remember, on it, that he said in the 
previous communication that it was a very simple 
matter and we did not think it was, because we 
thought it impossible to affix them the way he said 
was so simple ; and Mr. Watson was very hungry, 
and he hustled around to get something to eat and he 
was eating and we were talking, and the matter 
was discussed at considerable length. There is 
absolutely no question about that in my mind. 

By Mr. CJioate : 

Q. Discussed between whom? A. Between Mr. 
Watson and Lord Dunraven and ourselves. Of 
course it was brief, but it was thorough. Then, sub- 
sequently to that, when we were taken back on the 



327 



Bridgeport into the Erie Basin, T remember Mr. 
Canfield calling Mr. Watson down from the upper 
deck. There was a large crowd on the end of the 
pier there, and I suppose he did not want to shout 
it out ; at all events, I remember his calling Mr. 
Watson down, and while I could not overhear ex- 
actly the words that he used, I know that he was 
giving Mr. Watson instructions about the marking 
to-morrow and the batten ; in other words, to get 
Mr. Watson and Mr. Hyslop together. 

By Mr. Askwitli : 

Q. Who said this? A. Mr. Canfield. 

Q. When? A. This was when we were brought 
back by the City of Bridgeport into the Erie Basin. 

Q. On the Friday? A. On Friday. It was fol- 
lowing out — it was in the line of our whole mission, 
which was to let Lord Dunraven know that these 
marks would be affixed. 

Q. Was it not to the effect that the marks would 
be affixed before the next race ? A. No, sir; they 
were to be affixed on Sunday. Those were our in- 
structions ; or, rather, those were the instructions 
which we gave to Mr. Watson. 

Q. Were there any orders that the boat was to 
go to Bay Ridge for that purpose? A. We told 
him to have his boat there. 

By Mr. Rives : 

Q. By there, you mean at the Erie Basin? A. 
At the Erie Basin, on Sunday ; and we were most 
particular, I remember, in instructing our measurer 
about the matter, and about preserving the batten, 
and putting it in a place where they could both get 
to it. 

By Mr. AsTcwith : 

Q. There was no order for re-measurement at 
that time? It was simply for re-marking? A. For 
affixing the marks. There was no re-measurement 
contemplated then. 



328 



Q. Wliom did you tell that the Defender was to 
be at the Erie Basin upon the Sunday morning? 
A. I think Mr. Iselin. 

Q. Whom did you tell on board the Valkyrie 
that the Valkyrie was to be at the Erie Basin on 
the Sunday morning? A. Mr. Watson. 
Q. Will you tell me exactly the time? 

Mr. Rogers : Exactly the time when? 
Mr. AsTcwitli : When you told him so. 
A. I think that we told him so twice, although I 
am not sure about that ; but I remember Mr. Can- 
field — as nearly as I can remember Mr. Canfield 
told him, when he was leaning over the stern of 
the little steam tug there, to be sure and have his 
boat in on Sunday morning. 

Q. Was that after you had left Lord Dunraven? 
A. That was just after leaving the Bridgeport. 

Q. Where was Mr. Watson? A. Mr. Watson 
was leaning over the bulwark, I think, on the main 
deck. 

Q. The main deck of the Valkyrie? A. I think 
he came down from the upper deck. I am not sure 
whether it was the upper deck or the main deck. 
No ; of the City of Bridgeport. 

Q. Was that after you were going away from 
the City of Bridgeport, having gone on board with 
Mr. Canfield, when you found that the Valkyrie 
had gone out of dock? A. This was the same oc- 
casion. 

Mr. Askwitli : It really comes to a question, 
I suppose, of the effect upon Lord Dunraven' s 
mind of what he understood. 

Mr. Rogers ; I think it is quite liable, in a 

conversation of that kind, that he might have 

got mixed up ; but I cannot conceive how it is 

possible that he could not have remembered 

our mission. 

Q. Do you think it is possible that he would 

have this impression : ' ' They are founding this on 

some vague conversation " ? I cannot conceive it 



329 



possible. We went there for a definite purpose, 
and with a definite mission, and we fulfilled it, and I 
cannot conceive it possible that he could have so 
understood us, but that it would be perfectly plain. 

Q. You went with the definite mission of giving 
him the information that his request for a re-mark- 
ing had been acceded to, that re -marking to take 
place before the next race? A. That re-marking to 
take place Sunday, as I understood, the day fol- 
lowing the race. He had to come in Sunday, any- 
how, you know, because the race was going to be 
Monday. They had to be measured Sunday, or 
else it would go over until Tuesday. 

Mr. Aslcwith : I beg pardon. The following 
race was Tuesday, and it had been expressly 
arranged with Mr. Iselin that there was to be a 
working day intervening. 

Mr. Rogers : Yes, sir : I remember now. 

Q. You were not the measurer, in any form? I 
mean to say, you never had measured yachts? A. 
No, sir. 

Q. In regard to this letter, or rather memoran- 
dum, of Mr. Fish, you said you understood at the 
time that a portion of it was in Lord Dunraven's 
handwriting? A. No. I said that I thought that 
Dunraven had made corrections or some sugges- 
tions to Mr. Fish, when he read it over. 

Q. You are aware that Mr. Fish says now that 
the whole of it is in his handwriting? A. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Rogers ; In whose handwriting? 
Mr. AsTcwith : In Mr. Fish's. 
A. No, I am not aware of it. 

Q. You were not present in the room? A. No. 

Q. Were you present at the measurement on 
Friday of the Defender? A. I can't say that I 
was, if Mr. Canfield denies — that he got on the end 
of the dock about the end of the measurement. 
We were not on board at any time while she was 
being measured. 

Q. You thought this report made by Mr. Fish 



330 



was rather an important matter, did you not? A. 
I thought it was rather an important matter. 

Q. Did you think it was an implication of fraud? 
A. I did. 

Q. Did you think that re -measurement the fol- 
lowing day would be sufficient to show whether 
fraud had been committed many hours before? A. 
No. 

By Mr. Rives : 

Q. What was the weather on the morning of 
Friday, when the Defender was measured, do you 
remember? A. At the time that I got over to the 
Erie Basin it was blowing hard. From the east- 
ward, I think. 

Q. Was it a clear day? A. Well, it was not a 
foul day. 

Q. Was the sun shining? A. I cannot remember 
whether the sun was out or not. 

By Mr. Choate : 

Q. As I understand you, you went over with the 
intent to communicate to Lord Dunraven that 
both boats should be marked and to have them 
marked that day? A. That was our intention. 

Q. Have you stated — I might not have been 
listening — why that was prevented from being done 
that day? A. Because the Valkyrie was found to 
be outside the dock. 

Q. Already out of the Basin? A. When we ar- 
rived there she was out in the Hudson River. 

By Capt. Mahan : 

Q. Have you experience with the business of 
measuring yachts — not as an expert, but have you 
been present at such measurements? A. I have. 

Q. If a measurement were to take place by night 
I presume, from what I have heard, it would be 
impossible to make a satisfactory measurement, be- 
cause they make it down to tenths of inches. But 
would it be possible, do you suppose, in measuring 



331 



by night to tell the difference of a foot? A. I 
should not like to trust it for my own yacht. 

By Mr. Whitney: 

Q. Is it very difficult to get a measurement? 
A. With these modern boats, extremely difficult to 
get a correct measurement. You have to have the 
very smoothest and stillest kind of water. 

Q. You have had experience with other boats 
besides English cutters? A. I have had the Co- 
lonia and similar types of boats, and I know that 
Mr. Herreshoff's measurements vary quite fre- 
quently. I think he made three measurements on 
the Colonia and they all varied a trifle. 

Q. Owing to the great angle of the stem and 
stern? A. It was owing to the disturbed state of 
the water at Bristol. We could not get it suffi- 
ciently still to have the batten, as it went under 
the counter 

Q. The difficulty is more with the counter than 
with the bow? A. Yes, sir. 

By Mr. Whitney : 

Q. The water varies several inches in the length 
of a boat, constantly — it goes up and down, I mean? 
A. Yes, sir ; it is very deceptive. I know. 

Mr. Whitney: I know you have to wait 

often many days unless you are 

Mr. Rogers : You have got to get absolutely 
still water to measure the boats. 

Capt. Mahan : My question supposed abso- 
lutely still water. 

Mr. Rogers : At night I do not see how it 
would be possible. I know I would not allow 
any such thing for one of my own racing boats. 
I would not allow it at night. I should have 
it measured again and in daylight. 

By Mr. Askwith : 
Q. You feel that the measurement would not be 



332 

absolutely exact? A. It would not. I could not 
trust it if done at night. 

Q. As an exact measurement? A. No; not as 
an exact measurement. 

Q. You think it could be told within afoot? A. 
I think you could get one line within a foot, in the 
Erie Basin, at night. 

Q. Were you present at a meeting of the 
America's Cup Committee on Friday, September 
13th? 

Mr. Rogers : I would have to find out what 
meeting it was. 

Mr. AsJcwith : I will show you a report in 
one of the papers. 

The Chairman : Are you referring to the 
meeting of December 13th? 

Mr. AsTcwith : No ; September 13th. That 
paper is dated Saturday, September 14th, and 
and it has reference to the meeting of Septem- 
ber 13th, the previous night. 

Mr. Rogers : This says that there was a long 
consultation at the house of the New York 
Yacht Club, etc. There were present the 
members of the Cup Committee and Regatta 
Committees, and several prominent members 
besides. C. Oliver Iselin was present during 
the entire session. Do you mean the entire 
session of the Cup Committee's meeting? 

Mr. Askwith : I do not know. That is only 
the newspaper report. 
Mr. Rogers : I will ask the Secretary. 
Mr. Askwith : I asked you if you were 
present at that meeting. 

Mr. Rogers : I will ask the Secretary if he 
can help my memory, because I cannot remem- 
ber the date. 

Mr. Choate : Who is supposed to have said 
or written that? 

Mr. Rogers : I do not know. It is simply 
the "New York Herald." 



333 



Mr. AsTcwith : It is merely a statement of 
fact in the newspaper. Whether correct or 
not I cannot say. I was asking. 

Mr. Choate : I think we have seen enough 
the last two or three days to know that those 
are not absolutely right. 
Mr. AsTcwith : Indeed. 
Mr. Canfleld : I will have to ask what meet- 
ing he means. Was it when the question of 
certain propositions submitted by Mr. Iselin to 
members of the Yacht Club — that is, the Cup 
Committee, the Regatta Committee — were 
submitted about resailing some races? 

Mr. Rogers : I think it was. Yes ; I rather 
say yes. 
Q. Do you know whether this matter of this 
suggestion of the first race was discussed there? 

Mr. Rogers : In reference to this load water 
line? 

Mr. AsTcwith: Yes. 
A. I know it was not. At least not while I was present. 
Q. You say you do not remember this matter 
coming up there? A. I know that at an informal 
meeting, where I was present, the flag officers and 
all were there, and that matter was not discussed. 
Q. Was an official report of the meeting on Oc- 
tober 24 sent to the paj>ers? A. Now I will have 
to be refreshed again. That does not convey the 
slightest intimation to me. 

Mr. AsTcwith : The meeting of October 24 
was the meeting at which the Cup Committee 
report was made. 

Mr. Rogers : I was not there. 

By Mr. Choate : 

Q. Do you know of any orders given to the Val- 
kyrie to be there Sunday morning? A. My im- 
pression is that Mr. Canfield and I verbally told 
Lord Dimraven to be there Sunday morning. 

Q. Who did you verbally tell? A. It was either 



334 



Lord Dunraven or Mr. Watson. I could not 
swear which, but I think probably it was both. 
It was in this general conversation we had on the 
subject. 

Q. Some letters were introduced here, tending 
to show that an hour was fixed — ten o'clock? A. 
That is my impression, that the hour was ten 
o'clock Sunday morning. 

Q. That you designated either to Mr. Watson or 
to Lord Dunraven? A. I think to both. 

The Chairman: Mr. Canfield, the report 
that is furnished us in print has no date ex- 
cept 1895. Can you give the date that is ap- 
propriate? 

Mr. Canfield: Well, I suppose that is an 
omission. I should have put a date in there. 
You mean the date of the report? I suppose 
the date of the report should be the day it was 
submitted to the Yacht Club, and I suppose it 
should have been October 24 — was not the 
meeting then ? 

Mr. Aslcwith : When was this printed? 
Mr. Canfield: This was printed — well, fin- 
ished, I think, about two weeks or ten days ago. 
Mr. Rives : About a week ago, I think, you 
sent me copies. 

Mr. Canfield: Yes. Well, about ten days 
ago. 

The Chairman : You will find it on the third 
page of this printed pamphlet, signed by the 
Committee, and by yourself as Secretary. 
That is the one I refer to. 
Mr. Canfield : Yes, sir. 
Mr. Aslcwith : Did you send the report of 
the meeting to the press? 

Mr. Canfield : No, I was not present. The 
report was presented by Mr. James D. Smith, 
the Chairman. 

Mr. Rives : Presented in manuscript? 
Mr. Canfield: Yes, sir. 



335 



Mr. Choate ; Is that all from Mr. Rogers? 
Mr. Aslcwith : Yes. 

By Mr. Whitney : 

Q. Did you see the Defender frequently in the 
races prior to the Cup races? A. I saw her in the 
trial races for the Goelet Cup and one or two races 
at Newport. 

Q. You saw her a good many times yourself? A. 
Not quite as frequently, possibly, as some of the 
other members of the Committee, but I saw her 
quite frequently ; yes, sir. 

Q. What should you say about her stability? 
A. She struck me as a boat of enormous stability. 

Q. That was generally recognized and commented 
upon by all experts as being her most notable 
characteristic? A. I think so. 

Q. What would you think of the judgment of a 
person who, not being able to know what the 
weather was going to be on the Cup races, should 
ballast her beyond what she required? A. I should 
say he was an idiot. 

By Mr. Aslcwith : 

Q. But would yon agree that a person might 
ballast her with advantage on a day such as the 
Saturday was going to be, or was expected to be, 
in the same manner or nearly the same manner as 
she had raced in the first trial race? A. I do not 
know how she raced in the first trial race. 

Q. Do you remember the weather on the first 
trial race? 

Mr. Whitney : Did you say, u Ballast her in 
the same manner that she was ballasted in the 
first trial race?" 
Mr. Aslcwith : Yes. 
A. I cannot recall the exact weather ; no. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. Suppose you had anticipated any weather on 
the day of the race, would you have preferred to 



336 



have increased the ballast of the Defender over 
what it had been before if you could have had your 
own choice? 

Mr. Rogers : If I were in charge of the De- 
fender? 

The Chairman : Yes. 
A. No, sir. 

Q. Why not? A. It was so perfectly apparent 
that she was a boat of enormous stability and 
power that it practically made no difference whether 
it blew a gale of wind or a moderate breeze ; she 
did not require any additional ballast; it was 
quite evident, I think, to all who witnessed her 
performances on occasions that she was a boat of 
such tremendous stability that practically you 
could not injure her, except to carry away her 
spars, and any increase of ballast would only make 
her slower. 

By Mr. AsJcwith : 

Q. Would it, in your view, have been advan- 
tageous for her to have had no ballast whatever in 
her? A. I do not know how much inside ballast 
she carried, but I should say it would have been 
advantageous to her to have had out all her loose 
ballast. Say she had three or four tons of loose 
pigs, I should say she would have sailed faster on 
that race with it out. 

Q. You would not agree with Mr. Iselin and Mr. 
Herreshoff that it was proper to put in three tons 
of lead? 

Mr. Rogers : For that race? 
Mr. Askwith : Yes ; for that race. 
A. I was not aware that they put in three tons of 
lead for that race. 

Mr. AsJcwith : Not for the first of the Amer- 
ica's Cup races? 

Mr. Rogers : Do you mean they put in, in 
addition to her regular ballast, three tons of 
lead? 
Mr. Askwith: No; that they put in three 



337 



tons of lead instead of the furniture and other 
things. 

Mr. Rogers : That is a different thing. That 
is simply putting in weights down below for 
the same weights that were distributed up 
aloft. 

Mr. AsTcwith : I understood you to say just 
now that she was such a marvelously built 
boat, that it did not matter how much you 
lightened her up. 

Mr. Rogers : No ; I did not say that ; be- 
cause you might have taken out all her inside 
ballast and lightened her up to that extent. 
When I say that she was a marvelously power- 
ful boat, it was as she was constructed, with a 
lead keel and ballast placed clean and proper. 
I say, you take out all your loose impedimenta, 
and all your floating ballast, it would probably 
have made no difference in her sailing, and she 
would not have improved her speed. 
Q. You would have preferred to lighten her up 
as much as possible? A. I would; yes, sir. 

By Mr. CJioate : 

Q. If you had been her owner or builder, and 
had been satisfied with the way she behaved in the 
trial races, would you have wished to have had her 
more heavily baHasted on the Cup races? A. Cer- 
tainly not. 

Q. Why not? A. I think it would have made 
her sluggish. 

Mr. CJioate : That is all. Is there any other 
member of the Cup Committee? I will ask 
Mr. Kortright to take the stand a moment. 

Gouverneur Kortright, being called as a wit- 
ness on behalf of Mr. Iselin, testified as follows : 

By Mr. Ohoate : 

Q. You were a member of the Cup Committee of 
the New York Yacht Club? A. I was. 



338 

Q. Do you remember Mr. Fish being put on 
board the Cup Committee's boat by Lord Dun- 
raven, about six o'clock on Saturday evening? A. 
I am unable to say. I was not there. 

Q. Were you at the meeting at Mr. Smith's 
office, on Friday morning, when the sub-committee 
was appointed? A. I was not. 

Mr. Choate : That is all. I supposed you 
were present. 
Mr. Aslcwith : I have no questions to ask. 
Mr. Kortright : Unfortunately I was out of 
town. 

George W. Blizzard, being called as a witness 
on behalf of Mr. Iselin, testified as follows : 

By Mr. Choate : 

Q. What is your business? A. My business is 
carpenter by trade. 

Q. Where do you live? A. I live at New 
Rochelle. 

Q. You have been employed a good deal by Mr. 
Iselin, have you not? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Were you employed in and about the De- 
fender last Summer? A. Yes, sir; the whole 
season. 

Q. From the time she was built until she was 
laid up? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Did you have to do with the stripping of her 
at New Rochelle, two or three days before the Cup 
races? A. I did, yes sir. I cleaned her out. 

Q. You cleaned her out, and did you weigh 
what was taken out? A. Yes, sir; with the ex- 
ceptions of a few articles which were not weighed ; 
but" in the bulk, taking it right straight through, 
I weighed everything. 

Q. What kind of things were they that you 
could not weigh? Do you mean the water tank? 
A. There was some stuff down below. That is, 
scrap articles, that laid in her bilge, and water, 



339 



and such things as that, when she was cleaned out, 
that was not weighed. Everything else was 
weighed. 

Q. Will you state what you did to her and what 
you took out of her? A. I took out some of the 
bunks ; wire mattresses ; and some mattresses and 
carpets ; bedding and cooking utensils ; range, 
water-tanks, waste-tanks ; ice-box, and a number 
of articles. I could not exactly go over them all, 
but everything that was movable, with the excep- 
tion of her four water-closets. They were not 
touched. 

Q. Did you have to do with putting any lead in 
the place of what you took out? A. Yes, sir, I 
helped to put it in. 

Q. Did you keep a tally of the weights? A. I 
did; yes, sir. 

Q. Have you got them? A. I have; yes, sir. 

Q. Will you give us the tally of what you 
weighed, as it was taken out? A. I don't know 
whether you can make it out or not. 

Mr. CTtoate ? You can read it off. 

Mr. Blizzard : I will tell you exactly what I 
took out — the number of pounds. 6, 587 pounds. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. You mean by that, what you weighed? A. 
What I weighed ; yes, sir. There was other stuff 
taken out that was not weighed. The stuff that 
came out of her bilge was not weighed. 

Q. How much, in your judgment? 

Mr. Blizzard: That came out of her bilge? 
The Chairman ■• Yes. 
A. I suppose in the neighborhood of forty pails or 
buckets. 

By Mr. Choate .- 

Q. Of water and stuff and dirt? A. Yes, sir, 
dirt and stuff that was in the bilge at the time she 
was built in Bristol ; that was not taken out ; that 
laid in her all Summer long. 



340 

Q. You called it scrap iron. What did you 
mean? A. Heads of bolts, cuttings and such 
things, saw-dust. 

Q. You made her absolutely clean? A. Yes, 
sir, I did. Clean as a whistle. 

Q. Does this 6,587 include the tanks? A. Yes, 
sir. 

Q. Did you actually weigh them, or take the 
weights from Mr. Herreshoff? A. I had to take 
the weights of the ice-box and the water-tank 
from Mr. Herreshoff. 

Q. But all the rest you weighed yourself? A. 
All the rest I weighed myself. 

Q. What were the two weights given you by Mr. 
Herreshoff for the water-tank and the ice-box? 
A. I think he gave me a weight about 500 pounds, 
as near as I can judge. 

Q. And you included it in your 6,587 pounds? 
A. Yes, sir, I did. 

Q. Did you have any conference with them about 
the figure of 7,000 pounds? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Do you know what you describe of water, 
dirt, dust and scrap iron — can you form an idea 
what it weighed ? A. I can't exactly, but I should 
judge the pails were very heavy. They would 
weigh at least 25 or 30 pounds ; maybe more. I 
wouldn't swear to the exact weight. 

Q. That would be from 500 pounds upwards? 
A. Yes, sir. It would easily reach that. 

Q. Now about the lead that was put in up there? 
A. The lead was put in there on the 5th. I helped 
to cut it. There were 42 pigs cut on Hudson Park 
Dock, carried across two schooners that were lay- 
ing there loaded with lumber, and put on board the 
Hattie Palmer and taken out to the Defender. 

Q. When she lay where, at New Rochelle? A. 
At Hudson Park Dock, New Rochelle. 

Q. Were you on the Defender all that time? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. You did not sleep there? A. I slept on 



341 

her after she left there; after she left New 
Rochelle : until after the International Races were 
over. 

Q. Where was Defender lying there? 
Mr. Blizzard : At New Rochelle? 
Mr. Choate: Yes. 
A. She laid alongside of two schooners, at the dock, 
and the lead was carried across the two schooners 
loaded with lumber and put on to the Hattie 
Palmer. 

Q. Was anything else put on her after you had 
cleaned her out, except the two tons of lead, the 
42 pigs, at New Rochelle? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What? A. There was one ton of lead that 
was put on to her the day that she left there. I 
didn't see it put on. 

Q. I mean at New Rochelle, was anything else 
put on? A. No, sir. 

Q. Do you know what was done for drinking 
water after the water- tanks were taken out and 
the ice-box? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What? A. We had a couple of milk cans 
and they were filled up and put on board, and we 
had hardly enough to last us during the day. 

Q. Did you go on the Defender from New 
Rochelle, or did you come down by train, or on the 
Hattie Palmer? A. Came down by train. I 
boarded the Defender in the Erie Basin. 

Q. Before or after she was measured? A. Just 
in time to be measured. Before she was measured. 

Q. You took no part in that? A. I took no 
part into that, no. 

Q. From that time on to the end of Saturday's 
race where were you? A. I was on board the 
Defender; and stayed there. 

Q, Going on the Hattie Palmer to get a meal? 
A. Groing on the Hattie Palmer to get a meal, yes, 
sir, and returned aboard the Defender. 

Q. Did you see the 21 pigs put on at the Erie 
Basin? A. No, sir, I did not. 



342 



Q. Did you see them on the cabin floor? A. I 
did, yes. sir ; when I came aboard. 

Q. You were down there when the Hattie Palmer 
was alongside the Defender? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Both at Bay Ridge? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And at the Horseshoe? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Was anything carried from the Hattie Palmer 
into the Defender except the 21 pigs of lead 
that were removed on to the Hattie Palmer to be 
sawed, and the cots of the men? A. Nothing else, 
no, sir. 

Q. Were you on hand all the. time that the 
Hattie Palmer lay alongside of the Defender, at 
both places? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Could anything have been introduced without 
your seeing it? A. No, sir, it would have been 
impossible. 

Q. What took place down at the Horseshoe 
from the time when the Hattie Palmer drew up 
alongside until she left, and what were those times, 
as you recollect, in the evening of Friday? A. 
Well, we left Bay Ridge between six and seven 
o'clock; I suppose between half-past six and se^en 
o'clock. We arrived at Sandy Hook about half- 
past eight. 

Q. What took place there that night? A. The 
Hattie Palmer came alongside of us and we took 
those 21 pigs of lead one at a time and put them on 
the sampson post, Captain Haff holding the wedge, 
and one of the men here did the striking ; and we 
cut those 21 pigs and put them down in the bilge 
of the Defender. 

Q. Did you help do it or see it done? A. Yes, 
sir ; I helped to carry them. 

Q. Was anything else put in there that night? 
A. Nothing else, no, sir. 

Q. Did you lay the floor after it was done? A. 
No, sir ; I did not. 

Q. You do not know who did? A. I don't 
know who put the floor down. It was loose. It 



343 



would drop down in half a second. It would take 
no time to do that. Who did it I couldn't say. 

Q. What time did you turn in that night. Be- 
fore or after the Hattie Palmer left the Defender? 
A. After the Hattie Palmer had left, yes, sir. 

Q. How long after? A. I couldn't say exactly 
the time, whether it was half an hour or an hour, 
but I know I turned in before 11 o'clock that night. 

Q. What time did you come out in the morning, 
the next morning? A. I came out in the morning 
about half -past five. 

Q. Where did you sleep, with relation to the 
place where this lead had been put in ? How near ? 
A. I slept on the starboard side, right close to it ; 
with my cot and head right against the companion- 
way. 

Q. You know the Defender pretty well? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. Could there have been any bringing in of 
anything to an amount of nine or ten tons, or any 
amount, without your being disturbed? A. No, 
sir. It would be impossible. 

Q. Is noise easily conveyed and heard from one 
side of that boat to another? A. Yes, sir. She 
was all open. You could stand right in the stern 
and look straight through. 

Q. Do you remember Mr. Iselin and his friends 
coming on board the next morning? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And Lord Dunraven bringing Mr. Henderson 
and putting him aboard? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Where were you then? A. I was on the 
deck, right just aft of the wheel. 

Q. Did you go to the side to see them come up, 
both parties? A. I had a little bit of curiosity. I 
wanted to see him and take a look just the same as 
the rest of the folks. 

Q. Did others? Who were the rest of the folks 
you speak of? A. The whole crew. 

Q. Was there a general movement towards that 
side where Lord Dunraven came up with Mr. Hen- 



344 



derson ? A . There was on the port side, yes, sir ; all 
the crew was on the port side. I was on the star- 
board side at that time. 

Q. Did yon, nnder the direction of Mr. Iselin, 
that morning, and, if so, at what time — how long 
before the race began — sonnd for water, or examine 
for water, in the hold of the Defender? A. I did ; 
yes, sir. 

Q. What did yon do? A. I went down under 
the floor, and I had a little rod there, I suppose in 
the neighborhood of 8 feet long, and if it is not 
taken out it is in there yet ; and I had it marked, 
and I went down into her and marked it every 
morning ; measured it. 

Q. Was there any water in her? A. There was 
no water in her that morning. It had been pumped 
out. 

Q. Do you know of any sponging out done that 
morning? A. I didn't see any sponging done on 
the bilge part of her, but I did on the lazarette. 
On the lazarette one of the men sponged her. 

Q. Did you take part with Mr. Herreshoff, Mr. 
Iselin and the Captain in the examination of the 
lead before sailing that day? A. I didn't take any 
part in examining it ; no, sir. 

Q. Or in taking up the floor or in putting it 
back? A. No, sir; I only took up the one little 
patch that I had anything to do with. 

Q. How long was the Hattie Palmer alongside 
that morning? A. I should judge she was along- 
side in the neighborhood of about three hours. 

Q. And you and others went on her to get your 
breakfast? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Was anything carried to or fro that morning? 
A. Nothing ; only the cots were carried aboard ; 
taken off the Defender and put aboard. That was 
all. 

Q. And you sailed and came back with the De- 
fender? A. I did; yes, sir. 

Q. Were you on her until she was measured the 



345 



next day, or where were you? A. No, sir; I left 
the Defender that night about half -past eight, on 
board the Flint. 

Q. At Bay Ridge? A. At Bay Ridge; yes, 
sir. 

Q. Where did you go? A. I went home. Mr. 
Iselin let me go home ; I went to New Rochelle, 
and returned the next night; the next afternoon. 

Q. You were not present then on the following 
day, Sunday? A. No, sir. 

Q. You do not know what might have happened 
between the time you left her and the next day at 
noon? A. No, sir. 

Q. Did you know of any place in that vessel 
where water ballast or any other ballast could have 
been stowed without your knowing it? A. No, sir. 
It would have been impossible to put it there. 
There was no place to put it. 

Q. Nothing to hold water? A. There was noth- 
ing to hold water except the hull of the boat. The 
water would have to enter into the bilge, if any 
water was carried aboard. 

Q. You had been on her all Summer? A. Yes, 
sir. 

Q. What do you know about the leak that Mr. 
Herreshoff has spoken of? What did that amount 
to? A. In a heavy breeze she would leak consid- 
erably, somewhere along the forward part of the 
mast. In light weather she didn't leak, hardly any. 
In any weather that we had, she wouldn't leak 
five pails full all day long, hardly. 

Q. From your knowledge of her, from the time 
she was at New Rochelle until you left her at half- 
past eight on Saturday night, was there to your 
knowledge anything taken into her or out of her 
except the two tons of lead carried in, the one ton 
of lead taken in and removed on to the deck of the 
Hattie Palmer, sawed and returned, and the cots 
of the men removed and carried in again? A. 
No, sir; there was not. 



346 



By Mr. Aslcwith ; 

Q. Did you go out on the sail at New Rochelle 
on Thursday that Mr. Leeds spoke of, in the De- 
fender? A. I couldn't say positively, but I think 
I did. 

Q. When Lord Dunraven was approaching the 
Defender on the morning of Saturday, with Mr. 
Henderson in his boat, on which side did he land 
Mr. Henderson? A. He landed him on the star- 
board side. 

Q. How many men were aboard the Defender at 
that time? A. I didn't count them. I couldn't 
exactly say. I know the whole crew was there. 

Q. Do you think that the whole crew went to 
the starboard ? A. I can't say. I don't know. 

Q. Do you think that many of them crossed 
over from the starboard side to the port side, after 
he had landed Mr. Henderson? A. I don't know. 

Q. Do you know whether they went from the 
port side to the bows? A. I couldn't tell you 
that. 

Q. Or that they went from the bows aft? A. I 
couldn't say. I don't think they did. 

Q. Were you present at the measurement of the 
Defender? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. On board? A. On board, yes, sir. The 
first measurement. 

Q. She was perfectly level on the water then? 
A. Yes ; sir. 

Q. Did you look over the side? A. No, sir. 

Q. Could you tell me whether any marks were 
above water at that time in the shape of pipes 
that have been spoken of, from personal observa- 
tion? A. I don't think there was. 

Q. Did you see? A. No, I didn't look for pipes. 

Q. Was this bilge- water loose in Defender all 
Summer, in all her Summer races? A. Of course 
she was pumped out every day. She was cleaned 
out. Of course a little bilge water laid into her. 
This stuff and dirt was into her, that was in her all 



347 



Summer long. She was never properly cleaned out 
from the time she left the ways at the shop until 
she was cleaned out at New Rochelle. 

By Mr. Choate: 

Q. I forgot to ask you if you remembered how 
the water was that morning at the time when Mr. 
Iselin came aboard and when Lord Dunraven put 
Mr. Henderson aboard? How was the water where 
the Defender lay, and the wind, if you remember? 
A. The wind was about southeast, as near as I can 
get at it. 

Q. Blowing something? A. Blowing — it had 
been blowing, but it had dropped down. Bio wed 
quite a fresh breeze that morning. The wind had 
greatly dropped out. There was quite a sea out- 
side. 

Q. And inside? A. Of course we were laying 
inside. There was a little motion, but not much. 

Q. A ripple, as Lord Dunraven called it? A. 
Yes, sir. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. That lead at New Rochelle came from New 
York, did it not? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How did it come to New Rochelle? A. It 
came up on the freight boat, the Mary E. Gordan. 

Q. How long before you used it? A. I don't 
know. I guess it hadn't been there long before we 
used it. I couldn't say. It may have been there 
the day before. I don't know, I couldn't say. 

Q. How much was there of it? A. There were 
42 pigs. 

Q. Was it all used? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. None left? A. None left; no, sir. 

Q. And all that was put on to the Hattie Palmer 
was transferred to the Defender? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What did you do with the water tanks that 
were taken out there? A. I took them out and left 
them on a little island there that belonged to Mr. 
Iselin, and they remained there during the races. 



348 



Q. They remained there? A. Yes, sir. 

By Mr. Askwith : 

Q. Have you been at work on the Defender in 
putting her into her Winter quarters? A. No, 
sir. 

Mr. Choate : That is all. If Mr. Thorne is 
here I will ask him some questions before I 
call Captain Terry. 

Newbuky D. Thoene, being called as a witness 
on behalf of Mr. Iselin, testified as follows : 

By Mr. Choate : 

Q. You are the gentleman who purchased the 
lead for the Defender, are you not? A. I gave the 
order for it ; yes, sir. 

Q. At the request of Mr. Iselin? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What request did you receive from him and 
what orders did you give in consequence, and 
when? A. I received a request from him, I think, 
on the 4th day of September. I went to Mayor, 
Lane & Company and ordered two tons from them 
to be sent to New Rochelle. 

Q. And then the next day did you receive a fur- 
ther request? A. The next day I received a tele- 
gram from Mr. Iselin requesting one more ton to 
be sent over to Erie Basin. 

Q. And you gave the order? A. Yes, sir; I 
gave the order to Mayor, Lane & Company. 

Q. Did you give any other orders? A. No, sir. 

Q. Or order any other lead for the Defender? 
A. No, sir. 

Q. Did you go on the Defender the day of the 
race? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How was the water, where she lay, when you 
boarded her with Mr. Iselin in the morning? A. 
Well, there was a little swell coming in around 
her, and the water was what you might call sort of 
lumpy, I should say. 



349 



Q. Steamers passing? A. Yes, sir. The Sandy 
Hook boats. 

Q. How near did they come to where you were? 
A. Well, I could not really say. 

Q. Had you been on her the day before when she 
was measured? A. No, sir. 

Q. You had nothing to do with that? A. No,sir. 

Q. What experience have you had in yachting? 
A. I have been at it about 20 years. 

Q. Did you go on the Defender all the time last 
Summer? A. Every race, except one, I think. That 
is all the trial races and the International Races. 

Q. On the morning of the race of Saturday, the 
7th, you understood she had three tons of lead on 
board? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. From your knowledge of her and your ex- 
perience in yachting, would it have been desirable 
to have any more or less? A. Oh, no, she didn't 
want any more. 

Q. Why not? A. Her stability and all was such, 
and it had been tested during the whole season, 
that she didn't want any more weight than she 
had. I think she would have done just as well if 
she had a little less on her. 

Q. When did you first hear of this complaint of 
Lord Dunraven's? A. The first I heard of it was, 
I think, the report given by the Cup Committee to 
the Club ; somewhere around October 25. 

By Mr. Askwitli : 

Q. Can you tell me the date when the lead was 
delivered at New Rochelle? A. I cannot. The 
orders were to have it sent directly up there. It 
was ordered on the 4th. I am almost certain it 
went that same day, or the next anyhow. It went 
directly. I gave the order to have it sent directly. 
Mr. Choate: The receipts are in, with the 
dates. 

Q. It was ordered on September 4th? A. On 
September 4th. 



350 



Q. New Rochelle is quite close? 

Mr. Thome : To New York? 

Mr. AsTcwitJi : Yes. 
A. It is about 20 miles, I think — 22 or 23 ; that is 
from the Battery. 



Captain Noeman W. Teeey, called as a witness 
on behalf of Mr. Iselin, testified as follows : 

By Mr. Choate: 

Q. What is your business? A. I follow the 
water. 

Q. How long have you followed the water? A. 
Off and on for forty years. 

Q. Have you any experience in sailing yachts? 
A. Some, yes. 

Q. How much? A. About sixteen years, I think, 
since I first entered yachting. 

Q. On about how many yachts in that time? A. 
Not over four. 

Q. Can you name them? A. — That is, under my 
charge, as sailing master, I should say. 

Q. What yachts have you been sailing master of 
prior to the Defender? A. I was on a little sloop, 
Enterprise. And before that — I can't think of the 
name of the boat, now. It was a small boat that 
belonged to the Atlantic Yacht Club. The name 
has gone from me now. 

Q. No matter. Sixteen years would cover it. 
You were sailing master of the Defender last sum- 
mer, from the time she was built unti] she was laid 
up? A. No, sir; I was not. 

Q. Assistant sailing master? A. Well, I don't 
know what my position was there, really. I as- 
sisted in anything that came along. 

Q. How long were you on her? A. I think it 
was near the last of July when I went on her. I 
don't remember the date. 

Q. How long did you remain on her? A. I 



351 



remained on her most of the time, until the next 
morning after the International Races were finished. 

Q. That is, the 13th, or along there? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Who employed yon ? A. No one employed me. 

Q. Who asked you to go aboard of her? A. 
Mr. Iselin. 

Q. What did he say he wanted of you? A. He 
wanted to know if I would go there and help them 
out in the races. 

Q. He was familiar with your previous record, 
I suppose? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. From July you sailed on her in all the races 
that she sailed? A. In every race, I think, I was 
on her ; yes, sir. 

Q. You got to be pretty familiar with her? A. 
Well, yes, sir. 

Q. You know that she carried no ballast during 
the trial races ? A. Not to my knowledge ; no, sir. 

Q. Do you know how she was stripped down the 
4th and 5th of September, up at New Rochelle? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. You were up there? A. Yes, sir, I was on 
her on those days. 

Q. Did you continue on her from New Rochelle 
until after the Saturday race? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Until after she was re-measured on Sunday? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How much in all of that time did you leave 
her, and where? A. It is impossible — I was off 
of her an hour at a time ; possibly three or four 
hours in that time. 

Q. Where? In the Erie Basin and on the Hat- 
tie Palmer? Any where else ? A. Yes, sir; I was 
on the docks in the Erie Basin. 

Mr. Choate : I mean at the Erie Basin? 
Capt. Terry : Yes, sir. 

Q. Any other absences during all that time ? A. 
I was not on her at New Rochelle when that lead 
was brought aboard. I was on shore on an errand 
to see Mr. Iselin. 



352 



Q. When you came back you found two tons of 
lead there? A. I found some lead there. I couldn't 
say how much it was. 

Q. You saw that put in her? A. I didn't see it 
put down below. I saw the lead. A part of it 
was lying on deck, and a part of it was below. 1 
didn't pay any attention. 

Q. It was taken below before you left New 
Rochelle? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Did she bring anything else but that from 
New Rochelle, to take the place of what had been 
taken out of her? A. Not to my knowledge; no, 
sir. 

Q. Could there have been anything else on board 
without your knowing it? A. I don't think there 
could; no, sir. 

Q. You came down to the Erie Basin and were 
there when she was first measured on Friday? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. You know nothing especial about that, 1 sup- 
pose? A. I was on her deck, sitting in my posi- 
tion, where I was placed, while she was being 
measured. 

Q. Were you on her from that time until she 
anchored in the Horseshoe with the Hattie Palmer 
alongside of her? A. Yes, sir; with the exception 
of going on the Hattie Palmer for meals. 

Q. And all that night you were on her? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. Will you state what took place down there? 
Capt. Terry : At the Hook, you mean? 
Mr. Choate : Yes ; about the lead. 
A. I don't remember exactly the time we arrived 
there, but I think not far from half-past eight or a 
quarter of nine ; we arrived at the Horseshoe, and 
Capt. Haff and I had a little talk about seeing Mr. 
Iselin about stowing this lead, and he told me — he 
said: % ' I think you had better take the naphtha 
launch and go and see Mr. Iselin about it." 

Q. You mean the extra ton, the additional ton? 



353 



A. Yes, sir. It was lying then on the floor and 
had not been cut up. 

Q. Did you take the naphtha launch? A. I took 
the naphtha launch and went off to look for Mr. 
Iselin, and when I came back the lead was all put 
down out of sight. I didn't see the cutting or 
handling or anything of it at all. 

Q. You could not find Mr. Iselin? A. No, sir ; 
I didn't find him. 

Q. Had the Palmer already left the Defender 
when you got back to the Defender? A. Yes, 
sir. 

Q. What time was that? A. I cruised around 
in this launch for quite awhile, and then went over 
to the Atlantic Highlands Dock, and thought, per- 
haps, Mr. Iselin might have been over there, and 
as we were coming back on a straight line for the 
Defender, we passed the Hattie Palmer, or met her 
going into the Highlands Dock, about half way in ; 
possibly a mile from the Defender at that time. 

Q. What time was that? A. I should judge it 
was not far from ten o'clock. It might have been 
a few minutes before. Not later than ten, I think; 
and I asked the Captain — I hailed him and asked 
him where he was going, and he said he was going 
into the dock. 

Q. What time did you turn in that night? A. 
I should say about half -past ten. 

Q. Whereabouts in the boat did you sleep? I 
slept in the sailroom on the port side, about amid- 
ships. 

Q. How near was that to where the lead was 
stowed? A. Well, the place it was stowed down 
was as near to me as that gentleman there, prob- 
ably. I was on one side, and this lead was put 
down amidships. 

By Mr. Rives : 

Q. About ten feet off? A. Well, it might have 
been ten or twelve feet. 



354 

By Mr. Choate : 

Q. Is the Defender a resounding boat? A. Very 
much so ; yes, sir. 

Q. Sounds are easily communicated? A. Yes, 
sir ; noise is conveyed very easily. 

Q. What time did you come out the next morn- 
ing? A. I think about 6 o'clock. 

Q. Do you think it is possible that anything 
could have been brought into the boat that night, 
from the time you turned in until you came out in 
the morning, without you seeing it? A. No, sir; 
I don't think it could have been done. 

Q. Or that a vessel came up alongside and made 
fast? A. No, sir; I don't think so. 

Q. Were you there when Mr. Glennie rowed up 
to the boat, or did you not know of that in the 
morning, at 6 o'clock? A. Yes, sir; I saw those 
gentlemen as they rowed alongside of the boat. 

Q. At that time had the men's cots and kits been 
taken out, at 6 o'clock? A. I can't tell that; I 
don't know. 

Q. W^as the Hattie Palmer there? A. Yes, sir; 
she was there. 

Q. What time did she come? A. I should judge — 
the Hattie Palmer was not alongside, but I think she 
was lying off waiting to come alongside. I should 
judge it was in the neighborhood of 6 o'clock or 
a little after. 

Q. Had she been alongside yet that morning? 
A. I don't think so. 

Q. Then these things could not have been taken 
off? A. No, sir. 

Q. Where were those generally put before they 
were taken off? 

Captain Terry /On the Defender? 
Mr. Choate : Where were they placed on 
the Defender? 
A. Well, the main part of them were in the fore- 
castle, for the men. 



355 



Q. Each of those forty men had a sack, had he 
not? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What was in the sack beside his cot, or what 
was it? A. A mattress, and I should judge a 
blanket or two, and a pillow for each man. I 
never inspected them, but I suppose that was it. 

Q. And each had an iron cot? A. Yes, sir; 
most of the men, or a part of them, had a valise or 
bundle of clothes, that went backward and for- 
ward. 

Q. All of which went off on to the Hattie Palmer? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Would the weight of all those forward make 
any impression, for instance, on the position of the 
bobstay bolt, in relation to the water? A. I should 
say they would, yes, sir. 

Q. Can you tell how much ? A. No, sir; I could 
not. 

Q. That morning was anything brought on 
board ? 

Captain Terry : On the Defender? 
Mr. Choate : Yes. 
A. Not to my knowledge ; no, sir. 

Q. You were there all the time, were you not? 
A. I was on her all the time ; yes, sir. 

Q. You would have known it if anything had 
been brought on board? A. I think so. 

Q. How was the water where the Defender lay at 
the time Mr. Iselin came on board and at the time 
Lord Dunraven put Mr. Henderson on board? 
Was it absolutely smooth or was there a move- 
ment of the waters? I want to get some idea of 
how the vessel lay? A. There was a slight roll 
heaving in from the swell outside, and occasionally 
a steamer passed up and down. The wind and 
sea — the ripple on the water didn't amount to very 
much, as the wind was right off from shore ; but 
the boat was in motion most all the time — the De- 
fender. 

Q. Can you tell how? Rolling or pitching, fore 



356 



and aft? A. A little of both. She lay a part of 
the time that morning a little quartering to the sea. 
That of course made her roll and pitch a little. A 
part of the time broadside to it, as the tide 
swung her. 

By Mr. Rives : 

Q. She was swinging to the tide and not to the 
wind? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. There is quite a strong tide from the Shrews- 
bury River, is there not? A. Yes, sir. 

By Mr. Choate : 

Q. You have had a good deal of experience. 
You believe she had three tons of loose ballast on 
board that morning? A. I believe so from hear- 
say. I didn't know anything about it. 

Q. I do not want you to know anything more 
than you do. But I want your judgment. You 
had been on her in the trial races since July? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. Would you have deemed it desirable to have 
had her more heavily ballasted for that day's race? 
A. I don't think so; no, sir. 

Q. Why not? A. The boat showed great sta- 
bility, and in my judgment she did not require any 
more weight. 

Q. In your experience, as you come up alongside 
a boat like the Defender, can you tell whether she 
has a slight list on or not? A. No, sir. 

Q. Do you think anybody can? A. I don't 
think so ; no, sir. 

Q. You have not covered the night after the race. 
You were on her during the time up to and until 
after Sunday. Up to the time of going up to Bay 
Ridge, there had been nothing in contact with 
the Defender since she started for the race, had 
there? A. No, sir. 

Q. Then the Hattie Palmer came alongside again ? 
A. Yes, sir. 



357 



Q. And you had supper? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And the men's cots were brought aboard? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Was there anything unloaded from the De- 
fender at all on to the Hattie Palmer, or any- 
thing taken out of that vessel in any way, from the 
time she started on the race until she got up into the 
Erie Basin? A. No, sir. 

Q. Could there have been, without your knowing 
it? A. I don't think it could have been done; no, 
sir. 

Q. You slept on board that night? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What time did the Hattie Palmer leave that 
night? A. I should say it was about 10 o'clock. 

Q. Did she come alongside the next morning, so 
that you could get your breakfast? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Nothing was transferred back to her? A. 
No, sir. 

Q. Nothing turned out of the vessel, or poured 
out, or left out of the Defender? A. No, sir. 

Q. Was your familiarity with her such that you 
could have told from her movements on the 7th 
whether she had extra ballast on board beyond the 
three tons that you thought were there? A. I don't 
think it would have been possible for me to tell if 
she had five tons on, but beyond that I think 
I could. 

Q. Suppose that she had ten in addition to the 
three? A. Yes, sir, I think I could have detected 
it right away. 

Q. You do not know that you can explain how 
you could tell that? A. Well, I may not to your 
satisfaction. 

Mr. Choate: These gentlemen will under- 
stand it. 

Captain Terry : There is a stiffness and 
rigidity about the boat; and the sails flap 
heavier, and the boat is not lively in several 
ways. A man who is acquainted with a boat 
can understand that something is in there that 



358 



should not be there. The boat is too heavily 
loaded. 
Q. Especially if you do not want it to be? A. 
Yes, sir. 

By Mr. Hives : 

Q. Were you at the wheel that day at all? A. 
Not during the race. Possibly, while we were 
towing. 

Q. You could tell very quickly if you had been 
at the wheel, could you not? A. Well, I might 
have told — it might have been more apparent to me ; 
but I think I could have judged very nearly. 

By Mr. Choate : 

Q. Who was at the wheel during the race? A. 
Captain Haff. 

Q. There was one question I might have asked 
you. Where were you when Lord Dunraven came 
alongside with Mr. Henderson? A. I was standing 
pretty well aft on the port side. 

Q. Which side was he put on? A. On the port 
side. 

Q. Had you ever seen Lord Dunraven before? A. 
Yes, sir. I saw him a number of times in 1893. 

Q. Was there any movement on board, if you 
remember, towards the side that he was coming up 
to? A. There was a general movement of perhaps 
two-thirds of the crew as well as Mr. Iselin and 
his friends, towards the port side. 

Q. Towards the side where Lord Dunraven was 
coming up? A. Yes, sir. 

By Mr. AsTcwith : 

Q. Did they go toward the starboard side to see 
him arrive, to see him approach? A. I don't think 
so; no, sir. 

Q. I understood you to say that Mr. Iselin was 
absent and you went for him when the lead was 
being put below? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And your memory I also understood did not 



359 



serve you as to the exact time on Saturday when 
the Hattie Palmer came alongside and when the 
men's cots were taken off? A. No, sir. I can't 
give you the exact time that morning when they 
were coming alongside. 

Q. You are a gentleman of very great experience 
in sailing matters. A. Well, not much, no, sir. 
Q. You have had forty years of it? A. Not as 

sailing master. Most of my 

Q. You know something about sailing? 

Mr. Choate : Sailing matters he said. 
Q. Sailing matters? A. Yes, sir, I think I can 
sail a boat some. 

Q. You know something about sailing a boat? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Can you tell the immersion of a boat, an 
alteration in immersion, easily? A. Not a slight 
immersion. 

Q. How slight? A. Well, probably I could tell 
four or five inches by sight. 

Q. But could you not tell if the load water line 
of a vessel was altered two feet? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. One foot? A. I think so. 

Mr. Hives : What do you mean by the load 
water line altered ? In length or depression ? 
Mr. Askwith : Length. Looking at a boat. 
Captain Terry : Do you mean horizontally? 
Mr. AsTcwith : The length. 
Captain Terry: No; I could not tell. I 
thought you meant horizontally. 
Q. How many feet would you be able to tell? 
A. I don't think within five feet. 

Q. Not in length? A. I wouldn't say. 

Mr. Choate : Is he speaking from inside or 
outside? 

Mr. AsTcwith : Outside. 
Q. Supposing you were approaching at either 
end — either at the bow or astern — could you tell 
an alteration in depth horizontally of three inches? 



360 



A. I don't think so, unless I was very familiar 
with the boat. 

Q. Can you tell it at four inches? A. I don't 
think so ; no, sir. 

Q. Then you are not able, having seen a boat 
sail light one day and seeing it immersed three 
inches deeper the next day, to tell that fact? A. 
It would depend a good deal on the 

Q. In smooth water? A. — On the height of the 
boat from the water. If she were a very low-sided 
boat I could tell if she was immersed three or four 
inches, and I was familiar with the boat ; but if 
she were a high-sided boat I couldn't do it. 

Q. You agree that a man of experience would 
detect a very small alteration in trim or immersion 
which an ordinary person would not? A. I can't 
tell what other people could detect. 

Q. Could you? A. No, sir. 

Q. You cannot detect a small alteration in trim? 
A. No, sir. 

Q. Or immersion? A. No, sir. 

Q. Or a large one? A. Yes, sir; I can a large 
one. 

Q. How large? A. I can't tell you how large. 

By Mr. Choate : 

Q. Do you call the Defender a high -sided or low- 
sided boat? A. She is medium; she is neither 
very high-sided nor very low. 

Q. How long an experience do you think a 
yachtsman should have to enable him to tell by 
eyesight an immersion of two or three inches, or 
the lengthening of the water line one or two feet? 
A. I don't know. 

Q. Do you think any extent of time would enable 
anybody to do it? A. I could not give you any 
answer to that. I don't know. 

By Mr. AsJcwith : 

Q. When did you leave the Defender? A. I left 



361 



lier on the next morning after the International 
Races were over. 

Q. Have you seen her since? A. No, sir; I 
have not. 

By tlie Chairman : 

Q. Where did the Hattie Palmer pass Friday 
night, do you understand? A. To the best of my 
knowledge at the Atlantic Highlands dock. 

Q. If I understand you she was headed for that 
dock when you passed her. About what hour? 
A. I should judge not far from 10 o'clock. 

Q. What was the first you saw of her the next 
morning? A. The first that I remember seeing of 
her was lying off on our port quarter away from 
us ; nearby. That is the place where I remember see- 
ing her in the morning before she came alongside. 

Q. What time was that ? A. I can't remember 
the time. I won't say about that, because I don't 
remember the time. But it was not far, I should 
judge, from 6 o'clock. It might have been a little 
before or a little after. 

Q. You do not personally know where she was 
between those hours? A. No, sir; I do not. 

Q. Could she have come alongside without your 
knowing it in the night, do you think? A. No, 
sir; I don't think so. 

Q. From anything you heard or know, had you 
any reason to suppose that she did? A. No, sir. 
Mr. Clioate : I will next call Captain Berry. 

Capt. James H. Berry, being called as a wit- 
ness on behalf of Mr. Iselin, testified as follows : 

By Mr. Clioate : 

Q. You are a seafaring man? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How long have you followed the sea? A. 
Since I was about 16, off and on. 

Q. Several years ago? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Have you done much sailing in yachts? A. 
A little ; yes, sir. 



362 



Q. How long? A. About 12 or 14 years; 10 or 
12 years, or somewhere along there. 

Q. Several yachts? A. Yes, sir; I have been 
master of several yachts. 

Q. Will you name some of them? A. The 
schooner Comanche for one ; the sloop Wasp ; the 
Katrina ; the Regina ; the Wizard ; the Mischief. 
I do not know of any others of importance. 

Q. Were you in the International Races prior to 
1895, in any way? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. In a yacht, or commanding a yacht, or sail- 
ing, or what? A. I was only an extra hand on the 
Valkyrie. 

Q. Were you in the Defender in 1895? A. I 
was; yes, sir. 

Q. Who employed you? A. Mr. Iselin. 

Q. To do what? A. To go as mate of the De- 
fender. 

Q. You were first mate, were you? A. Yes, 
sir. 

Q. Did she have more than one mate? A. Yes, 
sir. 

Q. Who was the other mate? A. George 
Conant. 

Q. When were you engaged? A. I don't ex- 
actly remember about that. Somewhere along 
March, I think. 

Q. Before she began sailing? A. I was sent on 
her as soon as she was launched. 

Q. You were on her from then until she was 
finally laid up for the Winter? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You were on her at New Rochelle when she 
was stripped? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. The 4th or 5th of September? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And from that time on until Sunday night 
following, how much, if at all, did you leave her? 
A. Possibly half an hour. 

Q. Does that include the times that you went on 
to the Hattie Palmer for your meals ? A. No, sir. 

Q. That half hour was when and where? A. On 



363 



Friday night, when we went to put the mainsail 
ashore at Bay Ridge. 

Q. Mr. Hyslop? A. No, sir; we landed the 
mainsail at Bay Ridge. 

Mr. CJioate : I thought you said the meas- 
urer. 

Captain Berry ; No, sir. 

Q. Why was that put on last? A. I suppose to 
give more room on the Hattie Palmer, to stow her 
cots aboard in case it rained the next day. It was an 
extra sail. 

Q. Did you have to do with the stowing of the 
two tons of lead at New Rochelle? A. I did not. 

Q. Do you know that it was done? A. I know 
it was put in ; yes, sir. 

Q. You came down in her from New Rochelle? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Was anything else put in her at New Rochelle 
after she was stripped, or on the way down, at any 
stopping place? A. No, sir. 

Q. Did she stop anywhere on her way down from 
New Rochelle to the Erie Basin? A. No, sir. 

Q. What time did she get to the Erie Basin Fri- 
day? A. In the neighborhood of between 11 and 
12, as near as I can remember. I don't remember 
exactly. 

Q. Did you see the 21 pigs taken on there? A. 
I did. 

Q. Was anything more taken on while she was 
in the Erie Basin? A. No, sir. 

Q. They were placed down on the cabin floor? 
A. They were. 

Q. What part of the vessel? A. About amid- 
ships. 

Q. Over where it was to be finally stowed? A. 
Directly over where it was going to be stowed ; yes, 
sir. 

Q. Will you go on and tell where you went from 
the Erie Basin, as well as you can remember, and 
what time you left, and where you stopped, and 



364 



what happened? A. We went from there to Bay 
Ridge. We left the Erie Basin probably at 4 
o'clock, and I suppose arrived at Bay Ridge prob- 
ably an hour later. 

Q. In tow of the Flint? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Then the Hattie Palmer came alongside of 
you, did she not? A. Not directly; no, sir. 

Q. While you were there at Bay Ridge? A. 
While we were there at Bay Ridge the Hattie Pal- 
mer was up at 26th Street getting coal and water. 

Q. But she soon rejoined you? She came and 
rejoined you? A. Later, yes, sir. 

Q. And the men got their supper there, some of 
them? A. The Captain got his supper while the 
Palmer was alongside ; yes, sir. 

Q. Where did you get your supper? A. Aboard 
the Hattie Palmer. 

Q. While she lay alongside ? A. On the way to 
Bay Ridge, where we landed the mainsail. 

Q. Did the Hattie Palmer take anything on board 
when she landed the mainsail? A.' No, sir. 

Q. Then you came back and by and by you got 
down to the Horseshoe? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And you were on board all night? A. All 
night. 

Q. Either at Bay Ridge or on the way down to 
the Horseshoe or at the Horseshoe, was anything 
taken into that vessel, the Defender? A. No, sir. 

Q. Do you remember taking the 21 pigs on to the 
Hattie Palmer, and their being cut and brought 
back? A. I do. 

Q. Did you have anything to do with that? A. 
I superintended the stowing of them in the hold ; 
yes, sir. 

Q. You know just what was there? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You stowed it on top of what was already 
there? A. No, sir. 

Q. Where did you stow it? Further aft or for- 
ward? A. Forward. 

Q. Further forward? A. Yes, sir. 



365 



Q. On either side of her middle line, or keel, or 
what? How did you stow it? A. Right in the 
centre of her keel. It was only 20 inches wide. 
Something like that. 

Q. At any time was any lead or other thing of 
weight brought into her? A. No, sir. 

Q. Except that extra ton ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Would you have known it if there had been? 
A. I think I should. 

Q. What was your arrangement of watchers from 
Friday in the Erie Basin until you got back to the 
Erie Basin on Sunday? A. We had four quarter- 
masters to stand watch day and night. 

Q. How long a watch? A. Two hours apiece. 

Q. Of those four quarter-masters three are here, 
are they not? A. I think there arer fou here. 

Q. What time did you turn in Friday night? A. 
Probably 11 o'clock. Between 10 and 11. Not 
later than 11. 

Q. How long were you in your bunk or cabin, 
or whatever it was? A. Until about five o'clock 
in the morning. 

Q. Before you turned in had the Hattie Palmer 
left? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Had she come alongside when you got up in 
the morning? A. No, sir. Not when I first got 
up. 

Q. Was anything brought on to the Defender 
from the Hattie Palmer that morning? A. No, sir. 
Well, not in the shape of ballast. 

Q. I mean anything of weight? A. No, sir. 

Q. What was brought on? Do you remember 
anything? A. Possibly a can of water to drink 
during the day. A can full of water, and lunch 
for the guests there, &c. 

Q. In the night where were you ? Where did 
you sleep? A. I slept in the sail room; in our 
main room. 

Q. Would you have been disturbed and known it 
if the Hattie Palmer had come alongside, or any 



366 



other vessel had come alongside, or anything had 
been brought into the boat? A. I think I should ; 
yes, sir. 

Q. Going back to the next morning after the 
race; you came up to Bay Ridge and nothing 
came in contact with the Defender from the time 
she started on the race Saturday morning until she 
got back to Bay Ridge? A. No, sir. 

Q. There she was joined by the Hattie Palmer 
again? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. From that time on until her re-measurement 
on Sunday was anything put into the Defender? 
A. No, sir ; nothing to my knowledge ; no, sir. 

Q. Would you have known it that night if any- 
thing had been taken out of her? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Nothing was taken out? A. No, sir. 

Q. From the time you began your return trip 
until the r-emeasurement on Sunday? A. No, sir. 

Q. You have had this long experience in sailing. 
You always observe, I suppose, the wind and 
weather. How was the water where the Defender 
lay on the morning of Saturday, when Mr. Iselin 
came aboard and when LordDunraven brought Mr. 
Henderson aboard? A. I should say there was a 
trifling movement there. Not much though. 

Q. Not perfectly still? A. No, sir. 

Q. As the water then was, in your judgment 
could anybody coming up alongside tell by eye- 
sight whether she was immersed three or four 
inches, more or less, than she had been the day 
before in the Erie Basin? A. No, sir; not unless 
they had some special mark. 

By Mr. Rives : 

Q. Was that morning cloudy ? A. Rather; yes, 
sir. 

By Mr. Choate : 

Q. Where did the Hattie Palmer lay that night 
while you were down at the Horseshoe, if you 
know? A. I do not know. 



367 



Q. Did she lay within 100 yards? A. No, sir. 

Q. Or anywhere near you? A. No, sir; she did 
not. 

Q. She sailed away? A. She steamed away. 

Q. Did she lay alongside in the Erie Basin the 
next night — or at Bay Ridge, the next night? A. 
No, sir. 

Q. What time did the Defender go from Bay 
Ridge into the Basin? Saturday night or Sunday 
morning? A. Sunday morning. 

Q. You had become by this time pretty familiar 
with the Defender, had you not? A. With the 
upper part of her; yes, sir. From the deck, I 
mean. 

Q. Inside? A. And interior. 

Q. I ask you from your knowledge of her 
whether there was anything in her on this race ex- 
cept the three tons of lead and the people that 
were on board of her, that you know of? A. There 
was not. 

Q. And do you think you would have known it 
if there had been? A. I think I should. 

Q. Does your experience and your knowledge of 
the Defender enable you to say whether she had 
ten tons more than you thought she had? A. I 
think I could have noticed that. 

Q. How could you tell that? A. By the un- 
steadiness of the boat, or too much wavering. 

Q. You had observed how she behaved during 
the trial races? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. If you had been her owner or builder, either 
on Friday night or Saturday morning, would you 
have deemed it desirable to have more ballast in 
her than you supposed she had, the three tons of 
loose ballast? A. I would not. 

Q. Will you tell why not? A. Because she had 
enough in her ; because I thought she had enough 
in her already. 

Q. That is, that more would have been to her 
detriment? A. Yes, sir. 



368 



Q. Would have injured her chance of winning 
the race? A. I think so. 

Q. Can you tell by going up to the side of a ves- 
sel whether she has a list of one or two degrees? 
A. No, sir. 

Q. Do you think anybody can? A. No, sir. 

Q. How do you discover a slight list, of one, two 
or three degrees? A. Possibly by getting on — by 
being either directly aft or forward, and judging by 
the mast, etc., with the eye, and the incline of the 
deck. 

Q. But from the side you could not do it? A. 
No, sir ; not such a small degree as that, unless 
you had a special mark on the side that you could 
see in smooth water. 

By Mr. AsTcwith : 

Q. Are you experienced enough to notice a list 
of a degree, supposing you go to the stern of a boat, 
outside, on the sea? A. It is rather doubtful. 

Q. Or two degrees? A. Well, I could not say 
exactly how much. 

Q. If you saw a boat one afternoon, and you saw 
it the next day, and the boat was some three inches 
deeper in the water, could you tell? A. Positively, 
not. 

Q. What? A. No, sir. 

Q. How long have you been sailing master? A. 
Ten or twelve years, off and on ; not steadily. 

Q. What time did you get up in the morning on 
Saturday? A. About five o'clock. 

Q. How late had you been up the night before, 
over this lead? 

Capt. Berry : Friday night ? 
Mr. Aslcwith: Yes. 
A. Not later than eleven o'clock. 

Q. Was all the lead packed by eleven o'clock? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. It had been taken on to the Hattie Palmer, 
after the Defender had been measured? A. Yes, sir. 



369 



Q. Some of it had been cut and some of it had 
been sawed? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How many pigs were there? 

Oapt. Berry ; In the whole ton ? 
Mr. AsJcwith : How many pigs were cut and 
sawed at that time? 
A. I could not tell you. I don't know. 

Q. You did not count them ? A. I didn't count 
them, and had nothing to do with cutting them. 

Q. Did you take any on board the Defender? A. 
No, sir, I didn't handle any of them. 

Q. Did you see the men doing it? A. I did. 

Q. Did they take them on board after they had 
been all cut, or as they were cut? A. They were 
passed on board as fast as they were cut, I pre- 
sume. 

Q. Handed from hand to hand, or by men taking 
them in their hands? A. That I don't know. 

By Mr. Hives : 

Q. You were down below in the hold, I under- 
stood? A. I was in the hold. 

Q. Superintending the stowing? A. Yes, sir. 

By Mr. Ask with : 

Q. Did the men hand them in from hand to 
hand, standing in a line, or did each man bring 
them direct from the Hattie Palmer? A. I could 
not see, if I was below, how they brought them 
from the Hattie Palmer. I know that the man at 
the hatchway handed them down. 

Q. Did different men bring you the same pieces 
of lead, or did the same man hand you the pieces 
of lead as they were passed to him? A. There were 
several men on deck passing the lead down to the 
man in the hold. 

Q. Who was down in the hold with you? A. I 
think a man by the name of Stephen Sellers stowed 
the lead in the lower hold. 

Q. He was with you in the hold? A. Yes, sir. 



370 



Q. Do you know whether the same man kept on 
passing the lead to him from above or different 
men? A I don't know about that. There were 
two or three men standing around. 

Q. Did you see them? A. I saw men passing 
there. 

Q. Were they different men? A. Yes, sir; they 
were. 

Q. What position were you in at the time of the 
measurement upon Friday, on the boat? A. I 
think I stood on her bow, if I remember right. 

Mr. Whitney : You mean the measurement 
on Friday morning? 

Mr. As7cwith : Friday morning. 
Capt. Berry ; Yes, I think I stood on her 
bows. 
Q. And from her bows you would not have been 
able to see the pipe amidships? A. No. 

Mr. Choate : That is all. We will call Mr. 
Conant. 

George W. Conant, being called as a witness 
on behalf of Mr. Iselin, testified as follows : 

By Mr. Choate : 

Q. How much have you followed the seas? A. 
Twenty-two years, off and on. 

Q. On yachts, at all? A. Not altogether. 

Q. Some? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How many years? A. Ten years. 

Q. Were you second mate of the Defender? 
A. I was ; yes, sir. 

Q. During what period? From the time she was 
launched until she was laid up? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You were on board of her at New Rochelle 
when she was stripped, and from that time until 
after the Sunday following? A. No, sir; I was 
not aboard of her when she was stripped. 

Q. Where were you then? A. I was at home; 
I left the day after the race on account of sickness 
at home. 



371 



Q. I mean when her water tanks and furniture 
were taken out of her at New Rochelle ; were you 
not on board of her? A. I was aboard of her 
then; yes, sir. 

Q. Were you on board of her from that time 
until after the Cup races? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You saw what was taken out of her at New 
Rochelle? A. I did; yes, sir. 

Q. Did you take any part in that? A. Some- 
what. 

Q. Cleaning her out? A. I was on deck helping 
pass the woodwork and furniture. I was not below. 

Q. What was brought on board of her after that 
at New Rochelle? A. I don't remember anything, 
only a couple of tons of lead. 

Q. If there had been anything else brought on 
you would have known it, would you not? A. 
Yes, sir ; I would have been apt to. 

Q. On her way down from New Rochelle to Erie 
Basin, on Friday morning, you were on board of 
her, were you not? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. On that trip was anything taken on board of 
her? A. No, sir. 

Q. While she lay in the Erie Basin, up the time 
she was measured, was there anything taken on 
board of her? 

Mr. Conant : At the Erie Basin? 
Mr. CJioate: At the Erie Basin? What do 
you remember taking on board of her there? 
A. That one ton of lead is all I know of. 

Q. Anything else? A. No, sir; there was not. 

Q. You were present at the measuring, I sup- 
pose? A. Yes, sir; I was there. 

Q. Do you remember how the weather was at 
that time; do you remember anything about it? 
A. Well, I don't remember exactly how the weather 
was ; I think it was fine weather. 

Q. Was anything else taken on board of her up 
to the time she left the Erie Basin except the one 
ton of lead? A. No, sir. 



372 

Q. When was the bedding taken ont of her in 
the Erie Basin, or was it not taken out of her 
in the Erie Basin before she was measured? A. 
Yes, sir; before she was measured. 

Q. And when was it put back? A. Put back at 
the Erie Basin, as far as I can remember. 

Q. Did you go on her to Bay Ridge from the Erie 
Basin? A. Yes, sir; I did. 

Q. Did you go on the Hattie Palmer to land the 
mainsail? A. I did; yes, sir. 

Q. How many men went on that trip ; pretty 
much the whole crew? A. I think pretty much 
the whole crew. 

Q. To get supper, as Captain Haff says? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. You got your supper there? A. Yes, sir; I 
did. 

Q. What time did you get back from landing the 
mainsail? A. Well, I don't remember exactly, but 
somewhere in the neighborhood of half -past six to 
seven, I should think. 

Q. When the Hattie Palmer landed the mainsail 
did she take anything on board from land? A. I 
couldn't say that she did ; no, sir. 

Q. How long were you together after you re- 
turned at Bay Ridge? A. I think only a very 
short time, as nearly as I can remember. 

Q. Was anything taken on board there? A. I 
didn't see anything. 

Q. From the Hattie Palmer or from anywhere 
else? A. I didn't see a thing. 

Q. Or on the way down? A. Nothing. 

Q. Now, you reached the Horseshoe together 
about what time that night? A. As nearly as I can 
remember it was between — I think we got down 
there in the neighborhood of eight o'clock. 

Q. And the tug passed off and the Hattie Palmer 
came up alongside? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How long did she lay alongside? 
Mr. Conant : The Hattie Palmer? 



373 



Mr. Choate : Yes. 
A. Well, she wasn't alongside a great while. 

Q. An hour or two? A. Not more than an hour, 
I should say. 

Q. In that time what did you see done with any 
lead that was already on the Defender? A. I saw 
it passed off the sail-room floor. 

Q. Did you take part in that? A. I took the 
pigs of lead from the boys and fetched them across 
on the Hattie Palmer's deck and put them on the 
pawl bit. 

Q. Was a line of men formed along from the 
place where it was taken to the place where it was 
cut? A. No, not exactly a line of men, as near as 
I can remember. 

Q. Were there a certain number of men ap- 
pointed to do that? A. There were six or eight 
of us. 

Q. You were one? A. I was one; yes, sir. 

Q. How long did that work take ; you have said 
not over an hour, I think? A. Well, as near as I 
can remember, it was done very quickly; I don't 
think an hour. 

Q. The point is, was anything brought into that 
vessel that night? A. Except that one ton of 
lead? 

Q. Except that ton of lead, to be cut and brought 
back? A. ISTo, sir; nothing. 

Q. What time did you turn in? A. Half -past 
eleven. 

Q. Long after the Hattie Palmer had left? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. Where was your berth? A. My berth was 
just above Capt. Berry's, alongside. 

Q. If the Hattie Palmer came alongside, or any- 
thing else came alongside, or anything was brought 
into the vessel that night, from your experience of 
the Defender, would you have heard it and noticed 
it? A. Yes, sir; I think I should; I am not a 
very sound sleeper myself. 



374 



Q. When you came out in the morning had the 
Hattie Palmer already come alongside? A. No. 

Q. You saw her come? A. I did. 

Q. And she remained until you had all got 
breakfast? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And the men's cots and bags were removed 
onto her? A. They were. 

Q. Was there anything brought on board from 
her, then, that morning? A. Not a thing; only 
perhaps a can of water and a few sandwiches for 
lunch. 

Q. Nothing heavy? A. No, sir. 

Q. Did you see Mr. Glennie come up that morn- 
ing? A. I did not. 

Q. Or two men come up and row around the De- 
fender in a boat? A. I saw two men when I first 
turned out, I think it was about a quarter of five, 
or five, rowing up around our bow, and I simply 
noticed them, and I heard some of our boys say, 
" There is a boat rowing around her." I couldn't 
say who they were. 

Q. Had the men's cots and bags been taken out 
of her at that time onto the Hattie Palmer? Had 
she come alongside? A. I don't think they were 
taken out at that time. 

Q. They were up in the forecastle, forward? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. How was the weather, or how was the water, 
rather, at the time when Mr. Iselin and his friends 
came on board, and a little later when Mr. Hender- 
son was put on board by Lord Dunraven? A. The 
water was far from being smooth. If I remember 
right there was quite an old swell heaving in. 

Q. The vessel did not lie perfectly still? A. 
No. 

Q. Could anybody have told, then, whether she 
had a list on her, coming up by the side of the 
vessel? A. I could not. 

Q. Could you have told, coming up to the side 
of her, whether she was immersed two or three or 



375 

four inches deeper than she was the day before 
when measured? A. I don't think I could. 

Q. Why not? A. Because I don't think she 
was any deeper. 

Q. State whether you could have told if she 
had been, by mere eyesight, as the weather then 
was? A. I think I could; yes, sir. 

Q. On the race that day, did you make any in- 
spection as to water in the vessel? 

Mr. Conant ■• The morning of the race? 
Mr. Choate ; During the race of Saturday, 
the 7th. 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How many times? A. Well, I was down for- 
ward there, two or three times ; I couldn't say which. 

Q. During the race? A. During the race. 

Q. For what purpose? A. I was down there. 
The boat had a little leak. Capt. Haff told me to 
watch it closely in the races. 

Q. And you went in pursuance of that order? 
A. I did; yes, sir. 

Q. What did you find? A. I found nothing but 
the lead that was put in there ; that extra ton. 

Q. Any water? A. No, sir. 

Q. You went down into the hold? A. I went 
into the forward hold, where the lead was put. 

Q. If there had been any more lead put in on top 
of the three tons, or alongside of it, you would 
have known it then, would you not? A. I think I 
should have ; yes, sir. 

Q. There was not anything there? A. No, sir. 

Q. Nor water in the vessel ? A. No water. 

Q. Was there anything in the vessel to hold any 
water except the can? A. No, sir; there was no 
tank there. 

Q. Was anything taken out of the vessel from 
the time of Saturday's race until the next morn- 
ing — until she was re-measured the next day? 
Was anything taken out or put in? A. No, sir, 
nothing. 



876 



Q. Could there have been nine or ten tons of stuff 
removed, even if it had been there, without your 
knowing it? A. I don't think so. I always used 
to have a hand in everything that was going on. 

Q. You knew of nothing taken out of her? A. 
No, sir. 

Q. Until she was re-measured the next day? A. 
Not a thing. 

Q. And every night and every morning the 
Hattie Palmer was alongside and the men's cots and 
bags and valises, or whatever they had, were taken 
off or on as occasion called for? A. . Yes, sir. 

Q. Covering the whole period, do you know of 
anything being taken out of the Defender to Jighten 
her before the first measurement? A. No, sir. 

Q. Or anything afterwards being put into her to 
make her heavier? A. I do not. 

Q. After the first measurement? A. I do not. 

Q. Before the race, I mean. Or anything being 
taken out to lighten her again, before the re- 
measurement on Sunday? A. No, sir, there was 
nothing. 

Q. Could there have been without your knowing 
it each time? A. I don't think there could. 

Q. How far away did the Valkyrie lay on the 
morning of Saturday's race? A. Not more than a 
quarter of a mile. 

Q. About that? A. About that, I should say, 
in my judgment. 

Q. And the City of Bridgeport? Did you see 
her? A. Yes, sir; she wasn't any further off than 
that. 

Q. And the next night, where was the City of 
Bridgeport? Where was she on Saturday night? 
A. I don't know. 

Q. I want to get from you the exact length of 
time on Saturday night that the Hattie Palmer lay 
alongside of you, after you had come up to Bay 
Ridge? A. I can't remember the exact time, but 
not for a short time. 



377 



Q. An hour or two? A. No, sir; I shouldn't 
say she did an hour or two. 

Q. Not all night or far into the night ? A. No, sir. 

Q. What time was she alongside the next morn- 
ing? A. A short time. 

Q. After she had left you and before you had 
turned in on Friday night there was some work going 
on, was there not, on the Defender? A. Riggers 
were at work at some straps on the main boom. 

Q. How late did they work? Until after you 
had turned in? A. Oh, yes, they worked, if I re- 
member right, until between two and three in the 
morning. 

Q. Can you tell about what time it was when 
they stopped cutting the lead, or at least when 
they stopped bringing it to you and handing it to 
you? A. I remember one thing particularly well. 

Q. What is that? A. That after the last pig was 
cut Capt. Haff sprang right around and stepped 
under the head-light of the Hattie Palmer and 
hauled his watch out and said, ' ' It is only quarter 
past nine now." 

By Mr. AsTcwith : 

Q. You did not measure the distance between 
the Yalkyrie and the Defender on the morning of 
Saturday? You say it was a quarter of a mile? A. 
I should say that. 

Q. That was just your judgment? A. That was 
just my judgment ; yes, sir. 

Q. You say you had a hand in everything that 
was going on? A. About everything. 

Q. That is your opinion about the value of your 
own services? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Do you agree with this : " The wind was very 
light " — This is the morning of Saturday — " There 
wasn't wind enough to list her any amount; 
possibly might a degree or something like that ' ' ? 
A. Well, there wasn't a heavy wind. 

Q. No considerable swell? A. There was quite 
an old swell, as I call it, heaving in. 



378 



Q. Do you agree with those words that I have 
read to you ? Shall I read them again ? "I did 
not observe any list and the wind was very light. 
There wasn't wind enough to list her any amount; 
possibly might a degree, or something like that." 
A. No, sir; I don't know that she was listed. 

Q. But do you agree with the statement that the 
wind was very light? " There wasn't wind enough 
to list her any amount? " A. Yes, sir. 

Mr. AsJcwith : This is Mr. Herreshoff's evi- 
dence, page 254.* 

The Chairman : Referring to what time? 
Mr. Askwith : This was on Saturday morn- 
ing? 

Mr. Choate : Does the witness understand 
this was Saturday morning? 

Mr. AsJcwith : I put it as Saturday morning 
to him. 
Q. Where was this leak? A. The leak was on 
the forward part of her. 

Q. Did you notice the pump by the bilge amid- 
ships? There is a pump there? A. Yes, sir; 
there is a pump there. 

Q. What size is it ? A. Well, I never took exact 
notice, but I should say it was an inch and a 
quarter discharge. 

Q. Is there a pump forward? A. No bilge pump 
forward ; no sir. 

Q. Is there a pump forward? A. This pump 
was about amidships. 

Q. I know, but was there another pump forward? 
A. No, sir. 

Q. Was there a pump on the starboard side 
forward? A. No, sir. 

Q. There was a pipe hole there, was there not, 
on the starboard side, forward? A. There is a 
pipe hole to the closet. 

Q. Was there a pump there? A. There was no 
bilge pump to pump the ship out with. 
* See page 176. 



379 



Q. Was there a pump? A. A water-closet 
pump. That is all. 

Q. Was that all the pump that was forward on 
the starboard side? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Where were you during the race? Below, 
the whole time ? 

Mr. Conant : During the race? 
Mr. AsJcwith : Yes. 
A. No, sir. 

Q. Where were you? A. I was on deck. 

Q. When were you told to look after this leak? 
A. I was told that day. 

Q. When did you look after the leak? A. I 
looked after — I was down there two or three times 
during the race. 

Q. How long? A. Probably five minutes at a time. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. What did you say you were looking after? 
I did not understand. A. A leak. 

By Mr. AsJcwith : 

Q. Were you out for this sail on the Thursday 
at New Rochelle? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How many tons of lead were in her then? 
Two or three? A. Two. 

Q. Did she sail lighter then, in your estimation, 
than she did at the first of the trial races? A. I 
didn't take particular notice. I think she did. 
A little lighter. 

Q. On the morning of Saturday the Hattie Palmer 
came alongside before five? A. Between five and 
half -past five. 

Q. How long was she there? A. She might 
have been there perhaps twenty minutes. 

Q. Did they move the bedding out during that 
time? A. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman : We will adjourn until two 
o'clock. 

At one o'clock p. m. a recess was taken until 
two o'clock this p. m. 



380 



New York, Monday, December 30, 1895. 

2 o'clock, p.m. 

C. Oliver Iselin, recalled and further inter- 
rogated by Mr. Choate : 

Q. Mr. Iselin, is there any objection to your 
stating how much lead the Defender had in her? 
A. No ; I think not. 

Mr. Whitney : Do you mean in her fin ; in 
her casting? 

Mr. Choate: In what they call the shoe. 

Q. Will you please state about how much? A. 
In the neighborhood of 85 tons. 

Q. And what was the weight of the boom and 
spars that have been talked about? A. We had 
four different booms and they were of different 
weights ; but the one used in the cup races was a 
steel boom that I had made at the last moment ; 
and it was about 1,000 pounds lighter than the 
wooden boom which she had used in the trial races. 
There was also a steel gaff which was a saving of 
some 200 pounds. 

Q. {By Mr. AsTcwith.) When was the steel boom 
put into her? A. It was put into her the day after 
the final trial race. 

Q. That would be about the beginning of August 
or end of August? A. About the end of August; 
yes. It was the same day on which we came in 
the Erie Basin. We found Valkyrie in there and 
she was changing her steel boom. I think it was 
August 31st. 

Q. What was the object of putting in the steel 
boom after the success of the Defender in the trial 
races? A. To lighten her top weights. 

Q. Were you seeking to lighten the vessel gen- 
erally? A. No, not generally. I was seeking to 



381 



lighten her top weights, taking off the uj>per 
weights and lowering her weight as ranch as 
possible. 

Q. Had yon fonnd it was an advantage then to 
have her weight more at the keel? A. No; not 
more weight at the keel. 

Q. Weight more at the keel by the fact of mak- 
ing the top weight lighter and keeping the keel the 
same? A. I kept the keel the same, bnt I lessened 
the displacement of the boat. 

Q. Wonld that have the effect of making her ap- 
pear to sail lighter npon the water? A. Cer- 
tainly, if I lightened her boom. 

Q. It wonld? Yes. 

Q. (By the Chairman.) When did yon say this 
was pnt in; what date? A. The steel boom? 

Q. Yes? A. We tried it the day after the last 
trial race, and if I am not mistaken ifc was the 31st 
of August. 

Q. (By Mr. AsJcwith.) Would it make her sail 
lighter upon the water; higher up? A. Certainly, 
to take one thousand pounds out of the boom 
would raise her up just as much as one thousand 
pounds of lead taken out of the bilge. 

Q. It would make her sail higher out of the 
water? A. Certainly; just the same effect as 
1,000 pounds out of the bilge. 

Q. Would it make her sail a greater height out 
of the water and therefore alter her load water line 
more than y 4 ^- of a foot? A. Would what alter 
her load water line? The 1,000 pounds? 

Q. Yes; this alteration of the upper or top 
weights? A. No. 

Q. Can you give me the figures ? A. lean give 
you the figures as they have been given to me. 

Q. (By Mr. Choate.) By Mr. Herreshoff? A. 
By Mr. Herreshoff, yes. I never have verified them. 

Q. (By Mr. AsTcwith.) They have been for- 
warded to you or you have them in your note book 
from Mr. Herreshoff? A. I have had them in my 



382 



note book, yes. Now what would you like to 
know? 

Mr. Whitney : That is, how much a certain 
weight changes the immersion; is that it? 
Difference in weight, how much it changes the 
amount of immersion. 

Mr. Iselin: For instance, three and a half 
tons would immerse the boat one inch. 

Q. {By Mr. Rims.) That is 7,000 pounds? A. 
Yes, and increase her water line 8 inches, so that 
half of that, 3,500, would immerse her half an inch 
and increase her load water line four inches. Half 
of that again, which is 1,750 pounds, would immerse 
her one-quarter of an inch, or increase her water 
line 2 inches, according to Mr. Herreshoff's figures. 

Q. {By Mr. Askwith.) Those are Mr. Herres- 
hoff's figures, not worked out yourself, but sup- 
plied by him to you? A. Supplied by him 
to me. 

Q. Was it upon Mr. Herreshoff's suggestion 
that this alteration from a wooden to a steel boom 
was made? A. No. 

Q. Who suggested it? A. I did. 

Q. And did he fall in with it as a valuable sug- 
gestion? A. No; he did not at first. 

Q. Previously was it of wood? A. Yes. 

Q. You suggested it to him? A. I did. 

Q. The boom was not purchased, or fixed in the 
boat without consultation with Mr. Herreshoff, I 
presume? A. No. 

Q. And did you subsequently convince him of 
the value of putting in a steel boom in preference 
to a wooden boom? A. Yes, I did. 

Q. Did you have any figures worked out to show 
the alteration in the load water line of the boat 
that this would cause? A. No; none. 

Q. You did it as an experiment? A. I did it as 
an experiment. 

Q. Did you sail any race with this experiment 
between the last race between the Vigilant and 



383 



Defender and the first race between the Valkyrie 
and Defender? A. None. 

Q. Did you give her many trials on the sea? A. 
Only one on the open sea. 

Q. Was that the sail at New Rochelle on Thurs- 
day afternoon before the race? A. No, that was 
not. The trial sail I gave her was the day after 
the last trial race, which was Saturday. 

Q. Can you give me the date? A. Yes, it was 
Saturday, the 31st of August. We came in the 
Erie Basin at once afterwards and hauled out in 
the dry dock that night, but I won't be sure 
whether it was the 31st of August; I think it was. 
It was Saturday night. 

Q. You were not present yourself during the sail 
that Mr. Leeds spoke of on the Thursday prior to 
the race, were you? A. I was. 

Q. You were? A. Yes. 

Mr. Rives: Mr. Askwith is not very familiar 
with the locality. New Rochelle is not on the 
open sea. It is on Long Island Sound. 

Mr. Askwith : I gathered from Mr. Leeds 
that he called it a sail from New Rochelle. 

Mr. Rives : Mr. Iselin says there was but 
one sail off Sandy Hook in the open sea. 

Q. {By Mr. Askwith.) That was not really a 
trial on Thursday preparatory to the race ; it was 
merely a sail? A. It was to try the sails. 

Q. It was to stretch the sails, wasn't it? A. No, 
not to stretch them ; it was to decide which main- 
sail we would carry. 

Q. And was it in similar kind of water to that 
she would have to go through in the race with the 
Valkyrie? A. That would be impossible for me 
to say. 

Q. lam asking in my ignorance of the locality? 
A. No ; it is apt to be smooth there. It is only 
about five miles from shore to shore. 

Q. In the sail on Thursday do you remember 
whether there were two tons or three tons of lead 



384 



that had been purchased by you in New York put 
aboard of her? A. Yes, I remember that distinctly. 

Q. Which, two or three tons? A. Two. 

Q. The other ton had not then been put in? A. No. 

Q. Did you find any fault with the way in which 
the boat sailed upon Thursday, that you decided to 
put this extra ton in? A. No; that had been de- 
cided before. 

Q. Did she appear to you to sail too light upon 
Thursday? A. I was not judging at that time 
whether she was light or heavy. I was simply 
trying the mainsail. It was a question between the 
ramie mainsail and the cotton mainsail. 

Q. And your attention was chiefly directed to 
the sail? A. Entirely to the mainsail. 

Q. It had been decided before that sail Thursday 
that the extra ton should be put in? A. Thursday 
was the day it was decided. 

Q. After the sail or before the sail? A. I 
couldn't say; we simply decided that after we 
found out how much weight we had taken out of 
her. 

Q. After the weighing of the furniture and the 
tanks? A. Yes, after the weighing of the furni- 
ture and tanks. 

Q. What time of day were those weighed, do 
you remember? A. I couldn't tell you; it took a 
good part of the day ; a whole day. 

Q. Before or after the sail? A. I really couldn't 
say, but I think it was going on at the time of the 
sail. 

Q. They were doing it during the time of the 
sail. Then you found when you came back what 
the weight was? A. I won't be positive about that. 
I wasn't paying any attention to the weight at that 
moment. 

Q. Who was paying attention to the weight? 
A. No one was paying much attention to the 
weight at that time. 

Q. {By Mr. Wliitney.) As I understand, Mr. 



385 



Iselin, your decision was to bring her back to the 
stability that you had had during the Summer, 
when you had sailed the trial races ? A. Yes. 

Q. On your direct evidence I think you have 
testified that you judged that 6,000 lbs. — 3 tons — 
put down lower in the hold, would give the boat 
the same amount of stability that the 7,000 lbs. 
would have given her that you had taken out? 
A. Yes. 

Q. Isn't it pretty difficult, Mr. Iselin, to get a 
boat to lie still on her load water line? A. That 
depends. 

Q. You need smooth water? A. You need very 
smooth water. I have often tried to get at it off 
my place ; so has Mr. Herreshoff, but we never 
could come very near it even in the evening after 
the wind had died out. We made rough guesses 
at the water-line length, but we couldn't tell 
positively. 

Q. With these long boats the water is very 
rarely still enough so that there is considerable 
motion fore and aft, isn't there? A. Yes; the least 
ripple will make a difference of 4, 5 or 6 inches. In 
fact it is very difficult to see both ends at once. 

Q. {By Mr. Asfcwith.) You don't wish to alter 
this piece of evidence of yours, " I know the boat 
was put on a perfectly even keel when she was 
measured "? A. No; as far as I could tell to the 
best of my ability, I had her put on about an even 
keel. 

Q. You examined the tell-tale the moment before 
she was measured, before going to your place on 
the deck? A. I couldn't say, exactly, but it was 
before going to my place on the deck. 

Q. The tell-tale then showed she was on an even 
keel? A. Yes, as I remember it the tell-tale did 
show she was on an even keel. 

Q. Then you went back to your proper position 
on deck? A. To my proper position on deck. 

Q. (By Mr. Whitney.) Where was the crew 



386 

stationed when this measurement took place? A. 
Amidships; they are put in position by the 
measurer. 

Q. They are put amidships? A. Yes; just as 
near as we can get so many men. Of course a crew 
of fifty men cannot all be exactly amidships, but 
as near as possible. 

Q. (By Mr. Choate.) Were their places fixed on 
port and starboard side? A. Yes; they were sup- 
posed to be equally divided. 

Irving GL Barber, called and interrogated. 

By Mr. Choate; 

Q. You live down at Deer Isle? A. I do. 

Q. Any other business than sea-faring? A. No, 
only what business I can pick up there. 

Q. What do you do down there? A. I am 
engaged teaching a public school now. 

Q. You were one of the quartermasters on the 
Defender? A. I was. 

Q. All Summer? A. All Summer. Well, from 
the time she came out. 

Q. How long have you followed the sea? A. 
Twelve years; twelve Summers. 

Q. And you were on the races, the trial races and 
Cup races as far as they were sailed? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. I mean on the Defender. Were you on the 
Defender except as you left for meals, from the 
time she left New Rochelle on the morning of the 
6th of September until after she was re-measured 
on Sunday? A. I was. 

Q. How much did you leave the Defender during 
that time, how many times and where, except for 
your meals on the Hattie Palmer? A. Not at all, 
if I remember right. 

Q. What was your watch? A. Do you mean as 
to starboard and port? 

Q. No ; I mean as to the time of day and night. 
On Friday night what was your watch? A. My 



387 



watch commenced Friday night at 10 o'clock and 
ended at 12. 

Q. And you were up ? A. I was on duty from 
10 to 12. 

Q. Who was on duty from 12 to 2? A. I called 
one of the other watch, John Staples. 

Q. And were you alone on duty, or some of the 
crew? A. I was alone on duty. 

Q. And it was Staples' s business to be on duty 
from 12 to 2? A. 12 to 2, yes, sir. 

Q. As a matter of fact did you turn in on that 
night as soon as your watch ended at 12 o'clock? 
A. I did not. 

Q. How long did you stay up? A. Possibly 
half an hour. 

Q. Where were you during that half hour? A. 
I was helping the riggers aft. 

Q. They were still at work? A. They were still 
at work, yes, sir. 

Q. On the next night what was your watch; 
Saturday? A. My watch, I was on deck on the 
day of the race until 8 o'clock. 

Q. Eight o'clock p.m.? A. Eight o'clock p.m. ; 
eight o'clock in the evening. 

Q. Then did you turn in? A. I did not. 

Q. How long were you on deck, or up? A. I 
was perhaps an hour. I think I turned in about 
9 o'clock. 

Q. And were in your berth from nine o'clock until 
when? A. Until, I think, two o'clock in the 
morning. 

Q. Then you came and took your watch? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. From two until four? A. From two to 
four. 

Q. And then did you turn in again, or did you 
stay up, Saturday night? A. This was Sunday 
morning you are talking about; well, I think I 
turned in at four o'clock Sunday morning. 

Mr. Choate : I will try and make this shorter, 



388 



without going into all the details, if that will 
satisfy the Committee. 
The Chairman : Yes. 

Q. You knew of the two tons of lead being taken 
in at New Rochelle? A. I knew of the lead ; yes, 
sir. 

Q. And the interior of the Defender being 
stripped out, as the carpenter has described it? A. 
I did. 

Q. Did you help weigh it? A. I did. 

Q. Did you give the weights to the carpenter as 
he took the tally? A. I gave them to the car- 
penter; yes, sir. 

Q. What sort of scales were they weighed on? 
A. Common, either Fairbanks or Howe scales; 
small platform, perhaps 2 by 3. 

Q. Now, at New Rochelle was anything taken 
on board in place of what had been taken out of 
her, except two tons of lead? A. I don't remem- 
ber anything ; no, sir. 

Q. From that time forward until she started in 
the race on Saturday morning what was taken into 
her? A. Well, nothing but the ton of lead that 
has been spoken of, there at the Erie Basin ; that 
is all I remember. 

Q. Well, if anything else had been taken into 
her at any time before she started on the race on 
Saturday do you think you would have known it? 
A. I think so ; yes, sir. 

Q. Where was your berth? A. Eight abreast 
the main hatchway, on the starboard side, within 
6 or 8 feet. 

Q. By that time you were familiar enough with 
the Defender to know if there had been any noise 
on board it would have roused you in your berth? 
A. I think it would. 

Q. Could any vessel have come up or anything 
been taken into the Defender without your know- 
ing something about it? A. I think not, unless it 
was taken in very carefully. 



389 



Q. Did you take part in the handling of the 
twenty- one pigs of lead which were taken from the 
cabin floor of the Defender down at the Horseshoe 
onto the deck of the Palmer, cut and carried back? 
A. I didn't take any part in it at all. 

Q. Where were you at that time? A. I was 
about deck. 

Q. Did you see what was done? A. I did; yes, 
sir. 

Q. What was done? A. Well, the man passed 
the lead from the hold to the deck, which was 
taken there by other men, and passed to the 
Hattie Palmer's deck, and there cut with wedges 
and passed back aboard. 

Q. How much was there of it? A. I don't know, 
sir. 

Q. It was what was taken in at Erie Basin? A. 
At Erie Basin. 

Q. Now, after the race, or from the time the 
race began up to Sunday morning when she was re- 
measured, was there anything taken out or thrown 
out or let out of the Defender? A. I don't know 
of anything ; no, sir. 

Q. You would have known it if anything had 
been? 

Mr. AslcwitJi : That is a curious form of 
question. 

Q. Could eight or nine tons have been taken out 
of her without your knowing it? A. I think not; 
no, sir. 

Q. When you were not in your berth you were 
where you could see all that was going on? A. I 
was on deck. 

Q. To your knowledge, was there anything in 
her when she sailed this race except the lead that 
had been taken on at New Rochelle and the addi- 
tional quantity that had been taken on in the Erie 
Basin? A. Not to my knowledge ; no, sir. 

Q. Did you see Mr. Gflennie and another man 
come up and row around the Defender on Saturday 



390 



morning? A. I saw a boat with three or four men, 
including the oarsmen, row around the starboard, 
up under the stern and off at the port. 

Q. What time was that? A. Somewhere be- 
tween five and six o'clock. 

Q. At that time had the Hattie Palmer made 
fast or come alongside the Defender? A. She had 
not. 

Q. How long did the Hattie Palmer lay along - 
side Friday night? A. From the time we arrived 
at Bay Ridge until just before ten o'clock; just 
before my watch on deck. 

Q. And you were on deck when she cast off and 
left you? A. I was on deck; yes, sir. 

Q. Do you remember Captain Terry, who had 
been off somewhere on an errand, coming back? 
A. I do. 

Q. In the last answer but two you meant the 
Horseshoe, did you not; you said Bay Ridge? A. 
I meant the Horseshoe, down at Sandy Hook. 

Q. Do you remember Captain Terry who had 
gone on an errand or in search of Mr. Iselin, com- 
ing back? A. I do. 

Q. When he reached the Defender, had the 
Hattie Palmer already gone? A. She had. 

Q. Did she come up again until next morning? 
A. Not during my watch ; not to my knowledge. 

Q. Do you know where the Hattie Palmer was 
that night? A. I do not. 

Q. Was she anywhere within hail or sight of the 
Defender? A. I didn't see her. 

Mr. AsJcwith: Which night? 
Mr. Clioate : Friday night. I think one of 
your witnesses, perhaps, Lord Dunraven, said 
she was within 100 yards. 
Mr. Askwith : Not after half -past eleven. 
Mr. Bickford : Two or three affidavits said 
she lay within 100 yards. 

Q. {By Mr. Asktoith.) Do you know Mr. 
Glennie by sight? A. I did; yes, sir. 



391 



Q. Did you see him in this boat? A. As I re- 
member it, yes, sir. 

Q. You are sure you saw him in the boat? A. 
Well, I can't say that I am sure. 

Q. Where were you when the Defender was 
measured on Friday? A. I was amidships. 

Q. Which side? A. Port side. 

Q. Could you see from there the pipe which has 
been alluded to? Did you look over the side? 
A. No, sir ; I was amidships near the centre of the 
boat. 

Q. I thought you said the port side? A. Well, 
as near the centre as we could get amidships of the 
boat. 

Q. Where do you live now? A. I live at Deer Isle. 

Q. Is the Defender there now? A. She wasn't 
when I left ; no, sir. 

Mr. Choate : The Defender is up at New 
Rochelle. 
Mr. Whitney : Deer Isle is in Maine. 
Mr. Choate : Several hundred miles away. 

Q. {By Mr. AsTcwith.) If there was anything 
extra on this boat, you didn't see it? A. I didn't 
see it. 

Q. {By Mr. Choate.) I ought to have asked 
you if you could remember how the water was 
which the Defender was lying in on Saturday 
morning when Mr. Iselin and his friends came 
aboard and when Mr. Henderson came aboard? A. 
Not very rough. 

Q. Was it perfectly smooth or not? A. It was 
not perfectly smooth ; hardly ever is down there. 

Q. What kind of a movement was on? A. Long 
swell from seaward. 

John E. Billings, called and interrogated. 

By Mr. Choate ; 

Q. You live at Deer Isle? A. I do. 

Q. What is your business down there? A. I 



392 



have been going to sea for the last eight years off 
and on. 

Q. What do you do there in the Winter? A. I 
have been going to school for the past three years, 

Q. Were you one of the quartermasters on the 
Defender during the America's Cup races in Sep- 
tember, 1895? A. I was. 

Q. Were you in her when she went to New 
Rochelle where her cabin fixtures and other interior 
stuff was taken out? A. I was. 

Q. Did you see that done? A. Yes. 

Q. What did you see put in its place? A. Lead. 

Q. Where was it put? A. Down in the lower 
hold. 

Q. Did you go in her when she was towed to the 
Erie Basin? A. I did. 

Q. Anything taken in upon her on that trip? A. 
There was about one ton of lead, I think. 

Q. Anything else? A. Nothing else that I know 
of. 

Q. That was put in her at the Erie Basin, wasn't 
it? A. It was. 

Q. First transferred to the Hattie Palmer from 
the dock and then to the Defender, or brought 
directly to the Defender from the dock? A. It was 
transferred to the Hattie Palmer. 

Q. But you remained on her on that day and all 
the following night and the next day and night? 
A. I did. 

Q. Except as you went on the Hattie Palmer for 
your meals? A. Yes. 

Q. Did you go with the first mate to put off the 
mainsail? A. The mainsail we carried to Bay 
Ridge, did you mean? 

Q. I don't know where it was carried to ; taken 
somewhere and landed? A. I did go with him. 

Q. And on that trip you got your supper on 
the Hattie Palmer with the rest of the men? A. 
I did. 

Q. Do you remember her lying alongside the 



393 



Defender at Bay Ridge that evening — the Hattie 
Palmer? A. A short time, yes, sir. 

Q. And then going down in common tow to the 
Horseshoe? A. Yes. 

Q. And how long did the Hattie Palmer remain 
alongside the Defender that night? A. At the 
Horseshoe? 

Q. Yes? A. Perhaps an hour. 

Q. You saw the lead carried that was on the 
cabin floor — the ton of lead that was taken in — 
carried on to the Hattie Palmer, cut in two and 
brought back? A. I saw them when they began it, 
but I did not see the end of it. I went below. 

Q. What was your watch that night? A. My 
watch was from two to four. 

Q. And then you turned in in the early part of 
the evening? A. I did. 

Q. After the last witness left at half -past 12, were 
you alone in charge upon the Defender until 4 
o'clock? A. My watch came on at two. 

Q. From 2 to 4? A. From 2 to 4. 

Q. He says he stayed with you for half an hour 
— no ; it was from 10 to 12. Yours was 2 to 4? A. 
2 to 4, sir. 

Q. Did you remain up after 4? A. I did not. 

Q. Turned in again? A. I did. 

Q. Now during your watch from 2 to 4 was 
anything brought on the vessel? A. There was 
not. 

Q. Did anything come alongside? A. Nothing 
that I saw. 

Q. Do you remember Mr. Iselin coming aboard at 
about half -past 8 or 9, with his friends, Saturday 
morning? A. I do not. 

Q. Do you remember Lord Dunraven coming up 
and putting Mr. Henderson on board? A. I heard 
the boys speaking of it. I didn't see him. 

Q. How long did you stay in after you had 
turned in at 4 o'clock? A. I was below until the 
Palmer came alongside ; that is, I was not on deck 



394 

all the time. I might have been on deck and have 
gone below again. 

Q. What time were you on deck that afternoon 
or in the early part of the evening? what time 
were yon on watch, from 8 to 10? 

Mr. Whitney ; The same evening do you 
mean ? 

Mr. Choale : The same evening. 

Q. When had been your last watch before 2 to 
4? A. Six to eight. 

Q. Now down from the time you left New 
Rochelle until the race began on Saturday morning, 
was anything to your knowledge taken on board 
the Defender except the one additional ton of lead 
at Erie Basin? A. Two tons of lead were taken 
aboard at New Rochelle. 

Q. I say from the time you left New Rochelle? 
A. Nothing to my knowledge ; no, sir. 

Q. Were you so situated that you think you 
would have known it if there had been? A. I 
think I should have known it ; yes, sir. 

Q. Where was your berth at night? A. In the 
after part of the yacht ; in the lazaretto. 

Q. Suppose a vessel had come up alongside and 
lead or other heavy matter had been brought in, do 
you think you would have been disturbed by it 
from your previous experience on the yacht? A. 
I think I should ; yes, sir. 

Q. What time was the work of cutting the lead 
and re-stowing it completed? A. I couldn't tell 
you ; I don't know as I was awake at the time. 

Q. You had nothing to observe about that? A. 
No. 

Q. Now coming up from the race, was there any- 
thing put out of that vessel, the Defender? A. 
Nothing to my knowledge ; no, sir. 

Q. Up to the time she was re-measured on Satur- 
day morning, did you know of anything being cast 
out, carried out or let out from the Defender? A. 
Nothing. 



395 

Q. So far as your knowledge goes she carried 
just the same quantity of ballast in her, or what- 
ever else, at the time she was measured on Friday 
as at the time she was re-measured on Sunday? 
A. She did ; yes, sir. 

Q. How was the water in which she lay on Satur- 
day morning, if you observed it at all? A. Well, 
it was a little hobbly; there was quite a swell 
heaving in. 

Q. She didn't lay perfectly still? A. No, sir. 

Q. Now, at any time from the beginning to the 
end, from Thursday at New Rochelle, until Sunday 
after she was re-measured, do you know of any- 
thing being taken out of her to make her lighter 
when she was measured on Friday ; or put or carried 
into her to make her heavier after she was meas- 
ured on Friday ; or taken out of her or let out of her 
in any way before she was re -measured on Sunday ? 
A. Only the three tons of lead which were put in. 

Q. That is all. Of course the men's cots and 
bags were taken out and put in every night and 
morning? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Do you know of any water ballast being used 
in her or carried in her or let into her? A. I do 
not. 

Capt. MaJian: Do you know of any means 
by which such could have been done? 

Q. {By Mr Choate.) Do you know of any means 
by which it could have been done? A. No, sir. 

Q. Was there anything on board to hold water 
except the boat itself? A. There were some cans; 
water cans. 

Q. Cans like milk cans for drinking water? A. 
Two water cans. 

Q. You had no occasion to go down in her hold, 
or look into her hold at all? A. I did not. 

Q. {By Mr. AsTcwith.) You did not see the opera- 
tion with reference to the movement of the lead, 
did you? A. I saw the beginning of it; not the 
finish. 



396 



Q. If there was any extra weight brought into 
or existing in the Defender, you did not see it? A. 
I did not ; no, sir. 

Q. Have you seen the Defender since she was in 
her winter quarters? A. Not since I left her there. 

Q. When did you leave her? A. I think we 
left the 3d day of October, if I remember right. 

Q. Were you working upon her before she was 
put into her winter quarters? A. I worked on 
her until the 3d of October ; I think we finished 
at that time. 

Q. I suppose she is stripped now? A. She looked 
as if she were when we left her. 

Mr. Choate : Her boom and spars and every- 
thing are out. 

Q. {By Mr. AsJcwitli.) Did you do any work in 
stripping her. A. I helped prepare to strip her. 

Q. Is she boarded in? A. No, sir. 

Q. Has her mast been painted? A. It has. 

Q. Is she painted a lead color? A. The outside? 

Q. Yes? A. Kind of bluish color. 

Q. Any paint been put on her mast since the 
race? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Has paint on her sides been put on since the 
race? A. I think not; no, sir. 

Q. You don't know? A. I think there has been 
paint put on the outside since. 

Q. What was your position during the measure- 
ment of September 6th? A. Nearly amidships. 

Q. Which side? A. On the port side. 

Q. Comparatively in the middle of the boat? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. Like the last witness, you were all together 
in the middle of the boat? A. As near as we could 
be placed by the measurer. 

John T. Staples, called and interrogated. 
By Mr. Choate ; 

Q. Have you just come into port? A. Yes, sir, 
about a week ago last Thursday. 



397 



Q. From what vessel? A. Florence Leland. 

Q. Were you one of the quartermasters on the 
Defender in the Cup races in September, 1895? A. 
Yes, sir, I was. 

Q. What was your watch in the night of the 6th, 
Friday night? A. My watch was from 6 to 8. 

Q. Six to eight in the evening? A. In the even- 
ing ; yes, sir. 

Q. At that time almost everybody was up and 
on deck, I suppose? A. Yes, most of the crew were 
on deck at that time. 

Q. You turned in at 8 o'clock, or sat up? A. 
No, sir; it was after 8. Half -past 8, perhaps, be- 
fore I turned in. 

Q. When did you come out again? A. I came 
out at 12 and stayed until 2 that night. 

Q. You were not on the watch, were you, from 
12 to 2? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. When your watch began the Hattie Palmer 
had left the Defender? A. Yes, sir, she had. 

Q. How long before, you don't know, perhaps. 
You only came out at 12? A. No, sir; I couldn't 
say how long before. 

Q. Now, from 12 to 2 you were in charge of the 
vessel on deck and alone? A. No, sir; the rig- 
gers were there at work. 

Q. How many riggers were at work? A. There 
were three, sir, then. 

Q. Do you see them here to-day? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. From 12 to 2 was anything brought into that 
vessel? A. No, sir; not to my knowledge. 

Q. You were awake all that time, I suppose, and 
on watch? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. When you say not to your knowledge, you 
mean nothing was brought in? A. I saw nothing, 
sir, no. 

Q. Did any vessel come alongside? A. No, sir. 

Q. What became of you at 12 o'clock? A. Well, 
sir, I went below and called Mr. Billings at 2 
o'clock. 



398 



Q. The witness who has been on the stand al- 
ready? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. On Saturday night what was yonr watch? 
A. My watch was from 8 to 10. 

Q. Where were you then, Saturday night? A. 
At Bay Ridge. 

Q. And at 10 did you turn in? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Had the Hattie Palmer then left you? A. 
Yes, sir, she had. 

Q. And when did you get out Sunday morning? 
A. At 4 o'clock, sir. 

Q. And did you stay on deck then until the De- 
fender was measured — re-measured in the after- 
noon? A. Yes, sir, I did. 

Q. Now, to make a short story of it, was any- 
thing to your knowledge brought into the De- 
fender from the time she left New Kochelle with 
two tons of lead upon her until she was measured 
in the Erie Basin on Friday, and if so what was it? 
A. No, sir ; simply that one ton of lead was fetched 
aboard. 

Q. Was anything else brought into her ? A. No, 
sir. 

Q. I mean anything, lead or water or anything 
else that would weigh? A. No, sir, there was not. 

Q. That you know of? A. No, sir; nothing 
that I know of. 

Q. Do you think anything of considerable weight 
could have been brought in without your knowing 
it? A. No, sir; I think not. 

Q. From the time she was measured until she 
started on the race on Saturday morning was any- 
thing put into her? A. No, sir. 

Q. {By Mr. AsTcwith.) So far as you knew? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. {By Mr. Choate.) I mean so far as you know? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. As you were situated, do you think anything 
could have been brought in without your knowing 
it? A. No, sir; I think not. 



399 



Q. How was it at night when there was any 
sound on board the Defender? A. We would hear 
it very easily ; everything was taken out of her and 
it sounded through her very easily. 

Q. Where was your berth? A. Amidships on 
the starboard side. 

Q. Near the place where the lead was? A. 
Within 6 or 8 feet from where the lead was. 

Q. Coming down to New Rochelle to the Erie 
Basin, was anything done to lighten the Defender 
— anything taken out of her? A. No, sir; I think 
not. 

Q. Did you observe Mr. Glennie, or two gentle- 
men and two men, come in a boat early Saturday 
morning? A. No, sir. 

Q. And row around the Defender? A. No, sir. 

Q. Did you see when Mr. Iselin came aboard 
with his friends? A. No, sir; I never noticed 
them. 

Q. Did you see when Lord Dunraven came and 
put Mr. Henderson on board? A. Yes, sir; I did. 

Q. Where were you then? A. I was on deck, 
sir. 

Q. On which side, if you remember, did he put 
Mr. Henderson? A. Port side, sir. 

Q. Did you go to the port side to look at them? 
A. I did, yes, sir. 

Q. Did others? A. Yes, sir, others of the crew. 

Q. Was there a general movement to that side? 
A. Yes, sir, there was. 

Q. Had you ever seen a Lord before? A. No, 
sir. 

Q. And you say there was a general movement ; 
how many men do you think moved over to the 
port side to look at Lord Dunraven? A. I should 
think nearly all the crew went over. 

Q. All the crew on deck? A. Yes, sir, nearly 
all of them. 

Q. Would that be nearly all the forty men? A. 
Yes, sir. 



400 



Q. How was the water at that time where the 
Defender lay ; rough or smooth, flat or ruffled? A. 
Well, rough. 

Q. Roughened by what? A. The swell heaving 
in from the sea made it rough there where she was 
lying, and the tide was choppy. 

Q. You went on the race that day and came 
back? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Now from the time she started until she was 
re-measured on Sunday morning, was anything to 
your knowledge taken out of or removed from the 
Defender? A. No, sir, there was not. 

Q. Of course I except the taking out and in of 
the men's cots and bags? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Those you know were taken out and in night 
and morning? A. Yes. 

Q. On that night, Saturday night, what was the 
last you saw of the Hattie Palmer ; I mean Friday 
night? A. She was lying alongside the Defender. 

Q. When? A. Well, about half -past 8 or 9. 

Q. But when you had your watch alone, was 
she alongside? A. No, sir, she was not. 

Q. No vessel was; do you know where she was? 
A. No, sir ; I do not. 

Mr. Aslcwith : That was between 12 and 2? 
Mr. Choate ; 12 and 2. 

Q. So far as you know, did the Defender carry 
the same ballast when she was measured on Sun- 
day as when she was measured on Friday? A. 
Yes, sir ; as far as I know she did. 

Q. Do you think anything could have been 
thrown out of her, 7, 8, 9 or 10 tons, or removed 
from her on the way up and before Sunday after- 
noon when she was re-measured without your 
knowing it? A. No, sir; I think not. 

Q. Why do you think not? A. Well, I should 
think I should have heard it if they had been doing 
anything, or seen them, or something. 

Q. Do you know of any water ballast being 
used? A. No, sir. 



401 



Q. Or anything to carry water ballast or hold 
water ballast on the trip? A. No, sir; only just 
our drinking water; that is all. Two cans. 

Q. On Saturday night what time were you on 
watch? A. I was on watch from 8 to 10 Saturday 
night. 

Q. Had the Hattie Palmer left before your 
watch ended? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Then you were on again before morning? A. 
I was on at 4 o'clock, sir, in the morning. 

Q. And was that before the Hattie Palmer came? 
A. Yes, sir; it was. 

Q. What time did she come alongside Saturday 
night? A. About half -past 8. 

Q. Was there anything transferred in this whole 
time, between leaving New Rochelle, and Sunday 
night, from the Hattie Palmer to the Defender, or 
from the Defender to the Hattie Palmer, except 
the men's cots and bags, and the one ton of lead 
which was removed and brought back? A. No, sir. 

Q. Your watch on Sunday morning ended when? 
A. Ended at 8 o'clock, sir. 

Q. And you stayed on deck, I suppose, or did 
you turn in? A. I won't say whether I did or not. 

Q. {By Mr. AsJcwith.) If there was anything 
brought into or existing in the Defender that 
made her load water line length longer than when 
she was measured, you did not know of it? A. 
No, sir. 

Q. Did you have anything to do with the carry- 
ing of the lead? A. No, sir; I helped on the 
dock ; took the lead off the dock at Erie Basin 
onto the Hattie Palmer's deck. 

Q. You didn't bring it back on the night of 
Friday, the 6th, from the Hattie Palmer to the 
Defender? A. No, sir; I had nothing to do with 
that. 

Q. Were you on the port side — was your station 
on the port side when Lord Dunraven came aboard ? 
A. I wouldn't say whether it was when he came 



402 



alongside, but I went over there. I was around 
deck. 

Q. Did the whole crew stay on the port side of 
the Defender for a long while? A. I can't say how 
long they stayed there; a few minutes. 

Q. Did they follow him around to the bows? 
A. No, sir; I think not; just went and looked 
over and went back. 

Q. Would they be on the port side about amid- 
ships? A. Well, most of them probably amidships. 

Q. Where did he put Mr. Henderson on board — 
whereabouts on the boat? A. Well, sir, it was 
on the quarter, I should think ; aft of the rigging. 

Q. The crew didn't rush over to the starboard 
side to see him go away? A. No, sir; not that I 
know of. 

Q. You didn't see them? A. No, sir. 

Q. You didn't? A. No, sir; I didn't see them. 

Q. {By Mr. Whitney.) Do you come from Deer 
Isle? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. That is on the coast of Maine? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Beyond Rockland? A. Yes, sir; southeast 
of Rockland. 

Q. How long a journey is it for you to come 
here? A. Well, it is about 500 miles, I should 
think, sir. 

John E. Billings, recalled and further inter- 
rogated. 

By Mr. Choate : 

Q. You were on watch, I understand, on Satur- 
day night from 10 to 12? A. I was. 

Q. Was the Hattie Palmer alongside at all during 
that watch? A. She was not. 

Q. Did you have a watch again Sunday morning? 
A. I did not. 

Q. Did anything come alongside during your 
watch from 10 to 12 Saturday night? A. When I 
struck five bells a towboat came alongside. 



403 



Q. What towboat was it? A. I couldn't tell 
you. 

Q. Did she put anything on the Defender or 
take anything off the Defender? A. She wanted 
me to tell her where the Yalkyrie lay and I told 
her I didn't know. 

Q. That was all that passed between the tow- 
boat and the Defender, was it? A. All that passed 
between them. 

Q. {By Mr. Rives.) Where did the Valkyrie 
lie? A. I couldn't tell you, sir. 

Q. There were a number of vessels up there at 
Bay Ridge that night, I suppose? A. Quite a few, 
I should think, by the looks of them. 

Q. They were lying pretty thick there? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. {By Mr. AsTcwith.) Did the Hattie Palmer 
come alongside the Defender on Saturday evening, 
or don't you know? A. Came alongside until we 
got our supper and bedding. 

Q. You did not use boats between the Defender 
and Hattie Palmer ; she generally came alongside ? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. {By Mr. Choate.) Where was the Hattie 
Palmer Saturday night, if you know? A. I couldn't 
tell you where she went after that. 

Q. She went away? A. Yes, sir. 

Gardiner K. Green, called and interrogated : 
By Mr. Choate ; 

Q. Were you a quartermaster on the Defender 
on the Cup Races in September? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. On Friday night, what was your watch? A. 
8 to 10, sir. 

Q. At that time nearly everybody else was up, I 
suppose? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. But you were on the lookout? A. I was 
steering, sir ; going down. 

Q. What time did you get down there? A. 
About half-past 8. 



404 



Q. And the Hattie Palmer came alongside after 
the tow had cast you off, I suppose? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How long did she lay alongside? A. I don't 
know, sir. She lay there until we got the lead 
out. 

Q. Did you take any part in handling the lead 
taken from the Defender to the Hattie Palmer, 
sawed and brought back? A. No, sir. 

Q. What were you doing at that time? A. I 
was standing on the quarter on the port side, sir. 

Q. You saw what was going on? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Now, Saturday night, what was your watch 
up at Bay Ridge? A. 12 to 2, sir. 

Q. During that watch from 12 to 2, was there 
anything alongside the Defender? A. No, sir. 

Q. Did any vessel come alongside? A. No, sir. 

Q. Were you on the Defender all the time from 
when she left New Rochelle until after the re- 
measuring on Sunday? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Were you on the trip down from New 
Rochelle? A. I was, sir. 

Q. With the two tons of lead in her ; you knew 
that fact? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Had she anything else in her? A. No, sir. 

Q. Was anything taken into her or put out of 
her on the way from New Rochelle down to the 
Erie Basin or up to the time of her measurement on 
Friday? A. No, sir. 

Q. Aren't you a little mistaken about that? A. 
When, sir? 

Q. In the Erie Basin on Friday? A. Well, the 
bedding. 

Q. Nothing else? A. And the bags and the 
grips. 

Q. Aren't you a little mistaken still? A. And 
the lead was put on board. 

Q. How much lead was put on her Friday? A. 
I don't know, sir; I couldn't say. 

Q. Do you know how many pigs? A. I didn't 
count them. 



405 



Q. You saw a little lead brought from the dock 
to the Hattie Palmer, and transferred from the Hat- 
tie Palmer to the Defender, did you? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. On Friday morning before she was measured? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Did you go with the first mate to land the 
mainsail? A. I did, sir. 

Q. Or the spare sail? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And got your supper on the Hattie Palmer 
after it? A. I did, sir. 

Q. Did the Hattie Palmer take in anything from 
the shore? A. She did not, sir. 

Q. At any time from the time the Defender was 
measured on Sunday and the commencement of the 
race Saturday morning, was anything brought onto 
the Defender of lead or water ballast, or anything 
of the kind? A. There was not, sir ; only just the 
drinking water. 

Q. And the cots and bags of the men? A. Yes, 
sir. 

Q. Did you see Mr. Glennie that morning come 
and row around, or two gentlemen come and row 
around the Defender? A. I dic^n't notice them. 

Q. Did you see Mr. Iselin come on board with 
his friends? A. No, sir; he was on deck when I 
came up on deck. 

Q. Did you see Lord Dunraven come and put 
Mr. Henderson on board? A. No, sir. 

Q. That had happened before you came up ? A. 
That happened while I was down below, sir. 

Q. Now, returning from the race, or during the 
race, at any time from the beginning of the race 
up to Sunday afternoon, when the Defender was re- 
measured, was anything whatever taken out of the 
Defender or removed from her? A. There was not, 
sir ; only just the bedding transferred. 

Q. You have personal knowledge except during 
the times you were in bed? A. That is all, sir. 

Q. You had been on the Defender all Summer? 
A. Yes, sir; since she had been launched. 



406 



Q. You knew her pretty well? A. Well; quite 
well, sir. 

Q. From your experience on her, when you were 
asleep, even if any other vessel had come up along- 
side, and any ballast or water of any substantial 
amount had been brought into her, would you have 
awakened? A. I think I would, sir. 

Q. Had you generally, when anything was going 
on at night? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. When you were in your berth? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You are absolutely sure during your two 
watches, Friday night and Saturday night, that 
nothing was removed from or taken on to the De- 
fender? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And during all the rest of the time that you 
were upon the boat? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. {By Mr. AsTcwitli.) You speak from what 
you saw and what you knew? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And as far as you knew, if anything was 
brought in or anything existed in the Defender, 
you didn't see it? A. No, sir. 

Q. Do you come from Deer Isle, too? A. I 
belong in Deer Isle, yes, sir, but I am on a yacht 
here, sir. 

Q. Did you help to carry the pigs of lead? A. 
No, sir. 

Q. What was your post during the measurement 
on Friday? A. I was amidships, sir. 

Q. Do you generally employ yourself in yacht- 
ing? A. No, sir; this year is the first year I have 
been yachting. 

Q. What is your trade generally; fishing? A. 
Seagoing coasting. 

Michael J. O'Neill, called and interrogated. 
By Mr. Clioate : 

Q. You are a member of a firm of riggers here? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What firm is that and where is their place of 
business? A. John F. Byno, 28 South Street. 



407 



Q. Did you do some work on the Defender on 
the afternoon, evening and night of Friday, Sep- 
tember 6th? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Where did you board the Defender for that 
purpose? A. Erie Basin, sir. 

Q. How long did you remain on board? A. 
From the time I went aboard until 9 o'clock the 
following morning, I should judge. That is, in- 
cluding the time I was aboard the Hattie Palmer. 

Q. Let me know exactly. You went on board 
on Friday at what time? A. Between 1 and 2 
o'clock, I should judge, sir. 

Q. And you stayed on board the Defender from 
that uninterruptedly until when? A. I went back 
to the Hattie Palmer afterward. 

Q. What did you go back to the Hattie Palmer 
for? A. We had to do the work there; we 
couldn't continue our work on the Defender. 

Q. Some of your work had to be done where 
you had room for it on the Hattie Palmer? A. 
Yes. 

Q. Did you go down in the Defender to Sandy 
Hook? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What time did you arrive at Sandy Hook? 
A. I should judge somewhere in the neighborhood 
of 9 o'clock. 

Q. Do you remember the Hattie Palmer coming 
alongside? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. That evening? A. Yes, sir. 

(4. How long did she remain? A. Somewhere 
in the neighborhood of 10 o'clock. 

Q. You saw the lead being transferred from the 
Defender to the Hattie Palmer, cut and brought 
back? A. No, sir. 

Q. You did not see it? A. No, sir. 

Q. Did you see the Hattie Palmer leave? A. 
Not at the time, no, sir. 

Q. Did you know she had left? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How early did you know she had left? A. 
Ten o'clock, sir. 



408 



Q. You were at your work then, were you? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. Up to what time? A. Three o'clock in the 
morning, sir. 

Q. Won't you tell the Court what kind of work 
you were doing; what was it and where was it? 
A. Fixing the main sheet bridles on the main boom. 

Q. What were you doing to ifc exactly? A. 
Splicing and connecting the sheet blocks, main 
sheet blocks, with these wire bridles. 

Q. (By Mr. Hives.) What are the bridles 
fastened to; to an iron strap on the boom? A. 
Yes, sir; shackled to the iron strap. 

Q. (By Mr. Choate.) On a strap on the main 
sheet blocks, you call it? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What was it, iron work or steel work? A. 
Steel wire, sir. 

Q. (By Mr. Whitney.) Did you have to do any 
pounding in connection with it? A. Yes, sir, 
considerable. 

Q. (By Mr. Choate.) With a little noise? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. Now while you were at work, after the 
Hattie Palmer left, did any vessel come alongside? 
A. No, sir. 

Q. You couldn't help seeing it if there had been? 
A. No, sir. 

Q. And during that time after the Hattie Palmer 
left, was anything brought on board the vessel? A. 
Not to my knowledge, sir. 

Q. After you got through your job, which you 
say was about three o'clock in the morning, where 
did you spend the remainder of the night? A. 
Down below, sir. 

Q. Did you turn in; have a berth? A. No, 
sir ; I had a cot on the cabin floor. 

Q. Did you go to sleep? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How far were you away from amidships? A. 
That I couldn't exactly tell, as it was dark below, 
sir, and I was not familiar with the yacht. 



409 



Q. Did you hear any noise or anything being 
brought on board the yacht? A. None whatever, 
sir. 

Q. And did you hear any noise of anything 
coming alongside? A. No, sir. 

Q. {By Mr. Aslcwith.) Was this the first time 
you had ever been on the Defender? A. No, sir. 

Q. Had you often done work on her before? A. 
Once before. 

Q. When? A. August 29th. 

Q. Before the last trial race? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What were you doing then? A. The same 
as I was the night before the race of September 6th. 

Q. On the night before the race, September 6th, 
were you repairing something that had broken? A. 
I put something new on. 

Q. Was that to fix the boom in its crotch? A. 
No, sir. 

Q. What? A. To fix the bridles for the blocks 
for the sheets. 

Q. That was not on the forward part of the ves- 
sel? A. No, sir; after part. 

Q. When was it that you went back to the 
Hattie Palmer, Friday? A. After the Defender 
was measured. 

Q. Were you doing your work there on board 
the Hattie Palmer? A. Partially; yes, sir. 

Q. Were you going backwards and forwards 
between the Hattie Palmer and the Defender? A. 
No ; we left there and went with the Hattie Palmer 
down to the further coaling station, and we came 
from there back to the Erie Basin ; the Defender 
had gone, and therefore we proceeded down to Bay 
Ridge and then went aboard the Defender, sir, and 
kept on until morning when we were through. 

Q. You went off the Defender before she was 
measured, onto the Hattie Palmer? A. No, sir; 
I went onto the Hattie Palmer first and from there 
to the Defender and when through measuring I 
went from the Defender to the Hattie Palmer. 



410 



Q. And then the Defender went off and you 
followed on the Hattie Palmer? A. No, sir; we 
went to the coaling station. 

Q. What did you go to the coaling station in? 
A. In the Hattie Palmer. 

Q. You went in the Hattie Palmer? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. When you followed the Defender down where 
did you find her? A. We found her at Bay 
Ridge, sir. 

Q. What time did you get on board again? A. 
Five o'clock, I should judge. 

Q. Were you working from 5 o'clock to 3 o'clock 
in the morning at this? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Were you on the Defender the whole of that 
time? A. No, sir. 

Q. Did you go backwards and forwards between 
the Defender and the Hattie Palmer? A. No, sir. 

Q. What did you do? A. We did part of our 
work on the Hattie Palmer first, and then went 
from there to the Defender, and completed our 
work on the Defender at 3 o'clock that morning. 

Q. Was the Hattie Palmer lashed to the De- 
fender? A. Lashed to her, sir. 

Q. How did you get backwards and forwards? 
A. I don't understand you, sir. 

Q. Did you go in a boat between the Hattie 
Palmer and Defender? A. No, sir. 

Q. How did you cross? A. The Hattie Palmer 
lay alongside the Defender. 

Q. By a gangway? A. No, sir. 

Q. Walked across? A. Yes, sir. 

George Francis, called and interrogated : 

By Mr. Choate : 

Q. 'You are a rigger employed by John F. Byno 
& Co., 28 South Street? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Did you go aboard the yacht Defender on the 
afternoon of September 6th, shortly after she had 
been measured? A. I did, sir. 



411 



Q. Did you see any loose lead about her? A. 
I saw the loose lead there on deck. 

Q. On the cabin floor? A. No, sir; on the Hat- 
tie Palmer; at that time it was on the Hattie 
Palmer. 

Q. Before it had been moved onto the Defender? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Do you know anything about its being moved 
onto the Defender? A. No, sir. 

Q. You went down to Sandy Hook on the De- 
fender, did you not? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How long did the Hattie Palmer remain along- 
side the Defender that night? A. Until about 9 
o'clock, I guess, or half-past 9 probably. 

Q. Did you hear her come alongside again in the 
morning? A. Oh, no, sir. 

Q. You had turned in? A. No, sir; I had to 
work all night, sir. 

Q. You did? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What were you working at on board the De- 
fender? A. As a rigger, fitting bridles for the 
main boom and likewise the main sheet straps. 

Q. You worked all night? A. We went to work 
at 12 o'clock Friday. 

Q. Friday noon? A. Continued on our work, sir. 

Q. Until when? A. Until 3 o'clock Saturday 
morning. 

Q. Then you went below? A. Yes; by the Cap- 
tain's request I went below to take a little rest. 

Q. Now, after the Hattie Palmer had left, and 
until 3 o'clock, while you were at work there, did 
any boat of any description come alongside. A. 
No, sir. 

Q. Was anything brought onto the Hattie Palmer 
during that time? A. No, sir. 

Q. I mean onto the Defender? A. No, sir. 

Q. Did you see the Hattie Palmer steam away? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Do you know in which direction she went? 
A. I do, sir. 



412 



Q. Which way did she go? A. To the High- 
lands. 

Q. Was she lying near the Defender between 12 
and 3? A. I couldn't say where she was lying, sir, 
but she headed for the Highlands. 

Q. You didn't see her after you lost sight of her 
headed that way? A. No, sir; it was too dark. 

Q. While on the Defender, after you had gone 
below, did you hear any noise as of any boat com- 
ing up, or any ballast or material being brought in? 
A. No, sir; we made all the noise on the boat. 

Q. Did you make much noise? A. We have to 
in our business ; pounding steel wire. 

Q. How long did you stay below after the Cap- 
tain asked you to go below? A. Half an hour, sir. 

Q. Why didn't you stay below longer? A. I 
couldn't sleep, sir. 

Q. Then you came up? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And were on deck until morning? A. I came 
up and took a smoke, and then sat on deck chin- 
ning with the quarter-masters. 

Q. What was the first vessel or boat to come 
alongside of you that morning? A. Nothing came 
alongside. 

Q. At 6 or 7 or 8 o'clock didn't the Hattie 
Palmer come? A. Oh, in the morning; yes, sir. 

Q. Until then did anything come alongside? A. 
No, sir. 

Q. Was anything brought onto the vessel? A. 
No, sir. 

Q. How long did the Hattie Palmer stay along- 
side when she did come? A. After she came we 
had to take our tools up. My employer told me 
to gather up the tools and get on board the Hattie 
Palmer. We had about finished then. 

Q. You left by the Hattie Palmer? you didn't 
stay to see the finish of the races? A. No, sir; 
we went out around the point of the Hook on the 
Hattie Palmer; not on the yacht. 

Q. (By Mr. AskwitJi.) Did you take the time 



413 



accurately when the Hattie Palmer left the De- 
fender on the night of Friday? A. As near as I 
could judge, sir. 

Q. That is your remembrance? A. Yes, sir; I 
didn't take my watch out to look what time it was, 
sir. I go by the bells. 

Q. What time did you get on the Defender after 
the measurements? A. About 12 o'clock or after 
12. 

Q. After the measurements? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Were you working on the Defender the whole 
time from 12 to 3? A. In the afternoon? 

Q. Yes? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Did you go on the Hattie Palmer at all be- 
tween 12' and 3? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How often? A. Once ; went to the coal dock 
to get coal and water for the boat to steam up. 

Q. I ask you how often did you yourself go on 
board the Hattie Palmer from the Defender be- 
tween 12 and 3? A. I didn't go myself ; stayed 
on the Hattie Palmer to do our heavy work. 

Q. Did you go on the Defender at all then? 

Captain Mohan : You are speaking of the 
night are you not? 

The Witness : Of the afternoon, if I under- 
stand you. 

Q. (By Mr. AsTcwith.) On Friday? A. I might 
have gone there several times on and off for tools. 

Q. Back and forth between the Defender and 
the Hattie Palmer? A. I might have gone once or 
twice. 

Q. You don't know how many times? A. No. 

Q. You saw nothing? A. Nothing, sir, what- 
ever. 

Q. (By Mr. Choate) While the Defender was 
being measured in Erie Basin, you were hard at 
work on the Hattie Palmer? A. When she was 
measured, sir, I had occasion to go to New York 
for some utensils we wanted in order to do this 
work. 



414 



Q. Were you gone an hour or two? A. Yes, 
sir ; we were ordered to be there at 12 o'clock. 

Chaeles H. Billman, called and interrogated. 

By Mr. Choate : 

Q. You are a member of the firm of Charles 
Billman & Son, riggers, 81 Commercial Street, 
Boston? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Were you on board of the Defender when she 
was towed from New Rochelle to the Erie Basin, 
September 6th? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. After she arrived at Erie Basin did you see 
any lead carried on her? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How much ; or perhaps you don't know? A. 
Well, I should think there were 20 or 25 pigs of 
lead from my observation of it. I saw it laid on 
the wharf, carried on the Palmer's deck and passed 
from the Palmer's deck aboard the Defender's deck 
and put on the cabin floor. 

Q. You saw that? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Where was it put on the Defender's deck? 
A. Laid on the floor and passed down the cabin 
floor. 

Q. Did you go to work on the Defender in any 
way? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. When? A. Started to work after the boat 
was measured ; 2 or 3 o'clock I should say. 

Q. What was your job? A. I was there as a 
rigger; we had some new main sheet straps to 
make. 

Q. As the other two riggers who have testified 
did? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How did your Boston firm happen to be 
working with them? A. I rigged the yacht De- 
fender, and the men were sent over by Mr. Iselin. 
I had them at work with me previous to that fitting 
another set of main sheet straps. The wire wasn't 
as strong as was necessary, and Mr. Iselin tele- 
phoned or sent a telegram to John Byno & Co.'s 



415 



loft at South Street to have these two men meet 
the Defender at Erie Basin dock at 12 o'clock, and 
when the Defender arrived at the dock it was past 
12 o'clock. I saw the men on the wharf. 

Q. You were on the Defender from the time she 
left New Rochelle until when? A. Until she ar- 
rived at the dock, and then I went ashore to see 
Mr. O'Neill and Mr. Francis, from Byno's. 

Q. And then you went on board after she was 
measured? A. I was on board while she was 
measured, being one of the crew that was to be 
aboard of her during the races. 

Q. You were on her during the races? A. Yes, 
sir, I was on board during all the races. 

Q. And until Sunday morning and when she was 
re-measured? A. Yes, sir, I was at the measur- 
ing. 

Q. Friday night how long did you continue your 
work? A. Well, it was past 2 o'clock. I was on 
deck probably until 2 or a quarter of 2, or something 
like that, when being tired I went down and laid 
down a little while, and felt uneasy about the men 
putting the straps on the boom and came up again ; 
I was down 15 or 20 minutes. 

Q. With that exception were you down below 
until daylight? A. Probably until 5 or half -past 
5 that morning, when I went on deck again. 

Q. You were on deck at half -past 5 ? A. Satur- 
day morning, yes, sir. 

Q. How long were you below? A. Probably 
from 3 or a quarter of 3 until I came on deck in the 
morning, possibly half -past 5. 

Q. Did you see the Hattie Palmer leave Friday 
night? A. Yes, sir; I saw her when she went 
away. 

Q. At what time? A. I should judge in the 
neighborhood of 10 o'clock. 

Q. From 10 o'clock until you turned in at 3 did 
any boat or craft of any kind come alongside? A. 
Not to my knowledge, no sir ; I should judge not. 



416 



Q. Was anything brought into the Defender of 
any kind? A. No, sir, I should say not. 

Q. What kind of sleep did you have that night? 
A. Well, I slept quite soundly when I went to sleep 
because I was quite tired out; I had been working 
around kind of hard ; I slept on a cot on the cabin 
floor. 

By Mr. Choate : 

Q. You were on her all the time in question in this 
investigation? I will ask you this : From the time 
you left New Rochelle until she was measured on 
Sunday morning — Sunday afternoon — Friday after- 
noon — was anything taken out of or put iuto the 
Defender except the one ton of lead or little lot of 
lead that was put on at Erie Basin? A. Well, the 
men's bedding was transferred to the Palmer. 

Q. I mean except that? A. And the piece of 
wire we had we took on board after the boat was 
measured for the main-boom ; those were small 
pieces of wire. 

Q. They didn't weigh very much? A. No, sir; 
they wouldn't weigh probably fifty pounds. 

Q. From the time of measuring on Friday until 
the race began on Saturday morning or forenoon 
was anything imported into the Defender? A. No, 
sir; I should say not, from my knowledge. 

Q. Nothing while you were up and awake ? A. 
No, sir. 

Q. You were not disturbed by any sounds of any 
boat coming alongside, or anything being brought 
in after you turned in, until five o'clock? A. I 
didn't hear a thing. 

Q. On your return from the race you came up 
from Bay Ridge? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And from there next morning to the Erie 
Basin? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. During that period was anything taken out 
of or removed from the Defender? A. Not a thing, 
to my knowledge. 



417 



Q. Where and how did yon sleep on Saturday 
night? A. I slept on a cot on the cabin floor down 
in the cabin. 

Q. What time did you turn in? A. Possibly 
about ten or half -past ten. 

Q. You ought to have had a good sleep that 
night; when did you turn out? A. Sunday morn- 
ing? A. I don't suppose I got up until seven o'clock. 

Q. During all your waking hours was anything 
removed from the Defender? A. No, sir; not to 
my knowledge. 

Q. And was your sleep disturbed by any noise of 
anything being carried out of the vessel or any 
other craft being alongside? A. No, sir; I was 
not disturbed, and didn't hear any sound of any 
kind. 

Q. In all the time you were aboard did you see 
anything transferred from the Hattie Palmer to the 
Defender, or from the Defender to the Hattie Pal- 
mer, except the men's cots and bags and the ton of 
lead that was carried from the Defender to the 
Hattie Palmer to be cut and brought back? A. 
That is all. 

Q. I suppose you were not down in the hold at 
all? A. No, sir; well, at what time? 

Q. Any time? A. In the hold? no, I didn't go 
below the cabin floor. 

Q. Were you up and about when Lord Dun- 
raven brought Mr. Henderson on board? A. I 
guess I was on the masthead about that time. 

Q. Still at work in the morning at nine o'clock? 
A. In the morning, yes, at nine. No ; I wouldn't 
work as late as that. I had some work to do on 
the masthead. I know I was up there until break- 
fast time; probably 7 or half -past 7; 7 o'clock, I 
guess it was. 

Q. I will cover the whole period in one question. 
From the time you left New Rochelle until Sunday 
afternoon, after she was re-measured, was anything 
taken out of her to lighten her before her first 



418 



measurement, or anything put in after the first 
measurement, and taken out before the second 
measurement, except what you have stated? A. 
That is all, sir. 

Mr. Aslcwith : As far as he knows? 
The Witness : As far as I know, yes. 

Q. {By Mr. Choate.) You saw the Hattie Palmer 
steam away Friday night? A. Yes ; I happened to 
come forward about that time and saw her. 

Q. Do you know where she went? A. She went 
to the shore there toward the Highlands, where the 
steamboat wharves are. 

Q. Did you see the Valkyrie and City of Bridge- 
port Saturday morning lying off in the neighbor- 
hood? A. From casual observation I saw them 
there ; yes, sir. 

Q. Did you know them and recognize them? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. How far away were they? A. I should not 
think, in my opinion, that the Valkyrie lay over 
six or seven hundred yards. 

Q. {By Mr. AsJcwith.) Do you know anything 
about it? Are you a judge of distances at sea? 
A. From experience on the sea, no, sir, I am not. 
I have a great deal of experience in measuring rig- 
ging for vessels of all descriptions. 

Q. You were up until about 5 o'clock ; you were 
up really the whole of Friday night? A. Not the 
whole of it, sir. 

Q. Nearly all? A. You might call it nearly all. 
I slept probably about 8 o'clock, and turned out 
about 6 o'clock in the morning or half -past 5. 

Q. Do you know what time the Hattie Palmer 
left the Defender Friday night? A. I should judge 
in the neighborhood of 10 o'clock. 

Q. Did she at once go to some distance off or 
stay in the neighborhood for some time? A. To 
my recollection she steamed right away and went 
to the shore. 

Q. You don't remember? A. Yes; I remember 



419 



she didn't make any stop that I saw ; she went 
right away. 

Q. You didn't see her? A. I didn't see her 
stop ; no, sir. 

Q. You saw nothing during that night ; no bal- 
last brought in or anything brought in that night? 
A. With the exception of the men handling this 
ton of lead that was passed down the cabin floor in 
the afternoon. 

Q. Did you pay much attention to them? A. 
Not particular attention, only being around deck I 
saw them at work on it. 

Q. You were engaged in your own work? A. 
Yes, sir, on the after part of the deck. 

Q. And you were up nearly the whole night 
doing it? A. Nearly the whole night; yes, sir. 

Q. You slept well Saturday night? A.Saturday 
night I slept very well, I should think. 

Asa W. Hathaway, called and interrogated. 

By Mr. Choate : 

Q. You are a sail maker? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Did you have anything to do with the De- 
fender between the time of her leaving New Rochelle 
and her being re-measured at the Erie Basin on 
Sunday? A. Anything to do with her? 

Q. Yes? A. I was aboard of her from New 
Rochelle to Erie Basin. 

Q. And no longer? A. I was aboard of her 
through the time she was measured. After she 
was measured I went aboard the Hattie Palmer. 

Q. And didn't go on her again? A. I didn't go 
aboard of her again until Saturday morning. 

Q. What time Saturday morning? A. Some- 
where in the neighborhood of six o'clock. 

Q. Did you take part in the measuring or re- 
measuring? A. I had a position on the deck of 
the Defender through the measuring. 

Q. You were there for the purpose of what? 



420 



A. I was there as sail-maker, aboard of her during 
the races, to look after the sails. . 

Q. You were aboard of her from New Rochelle 
down to the Erie Basin? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And until she was measured on Friday? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. During that time was anything brought into 
her or anything taken out of her? A. Yes, sir, 
the bunks were taken out forward, if I remember 
right, and somewhere in the neighborhood of 
eighteen or twenty pigs of lead put aboard of her. 

Q. Anything else? A. Nothing that I know of, 
sir. 

Q. How long did you remain with her after she 
was measured on Friday? A. I couldn't tell you 
how long it was. As soon as the Hattie Palmer 
left her I went aboard of the Hattie Palmer and 
went off with her and she went down below the Erie 
Basin, somewhere to a coal pocket. 

Q. Did you go with the Hattie Palmer to land 
the sail? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And then did you leave the Hattie Palmer 
with the sail? A. With the sail to carry it ashore. 

Q. Did you go aboard the Defender? A. I went 
on board the Hattie Palmer, back to the Defender. 

Q. Then did you go down to Sandy Hook? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. Were you on the Defender during the race? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Then you were on her pretty much all the 
time after leaving New Rochelle and until after the 
race? A. With the exception of Friday night, sir, 
when I was aboard the Hattie Palmer. 

Q. Where did you spend Friday night? A. I 
slept on the sail locker on the Hattie Palmer. 

Q. Did the Hattie Palmer take anything on when 
she landed the sail? A. No, sir. 

Q. During all the time that you were there was 
anything transferred from the Hattie Palmer to 
the Defender or from the Defender to the Hattie 



421 



Palmer except the men's bags and the ton or 
twenty-one pigs of lead that were transferred to 
the Hattie Palmer and re-carried to the Defender? 
A. No, sir. 

Q. How mnch of all this time were you asleep? 
A. What night? 

Q. Well, Friday night yon were not even on the 
Hal tie Palmer, were yon? A. Yes, sir; I was 
aboard the Hattie Palmer that night; that was 
where I slept Friday night. 

Q. Yon were np all night? A. No, sir; I slept 
aboard the Hattie Palmer. 

Q. How much? A. I should judge, sir, I went 
to sleep about eleven o'clock that night and slept 
until she began to get under way in the morning 
to go to the Defender. 

Q. Where was the Hattie Palmer when you went 
to sleep on her? A. She was tied up alongside of 
the dock in front of the Highlands. 

Q. What time did she leave the Defender to go 
there? A. I should judge somewhere in the neigh- 
borhood of ten o'clock. 

Q. And when you waked up in the morning was she 
still there? A. Still tied up to the wharf; yes, sir. 

Q. You got back to the Defender about that 
time? A. About six or half -past. 

Q. Did the Hattie Palmer take anything on 
board there at the Highlands? A. No, sir; not to 
my knowledge. 

Q. Well, on the whole trip? A. No, sir. 

Q. From the time you left New Rochelle until 
Sunday afternoon was anything brought into the 
Defender or taken out of her except the men's cots 
and bags and the twenty-one pigs of lead that you 
know of? A. No, sir; not that I know of. 

Q. Were you there when Lord Dunraven came 
aboard or put Mr. Henderson aboard? A. I don't 
remember that. 

Q. Or when Mr. Iselin came aboard that morn- 
ing? A. I remember Mr. Iselin coming aboard. 



422 



Q. Do you remember how the water was that 
morning? A. Yes, sir; it was quite rough. 

Q. I mean where the Defender lay? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Rough until the Defender started? A. Yes, 
sir. 

Q. — and left the anchorage ground? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What time did the Palmer come alongside 
the Defender on the 7th of September, Saturday? 
A. Saturday morning, about half -past six, I should 
think it was. 

Q. And stayed there how long? A. Well, until 
the crew got their breakfast and put their apparatus 
and luggage aboard the Hattie Palmer. 

Q. An hour or two? A. Yes, sir; I should judge 
two hours, surely. 

Q. The night after the race, where did the Hattie 
Palmer lay? A. I don't know, sir. I slept on board 
the Defender that night. 

Q. Do you know of any water ballast being 
brought in or used on the Defender during this trip? 
A. No, sir. 

Q. During the races, the day before or day after? 
A. No, sir. 

Q. (By Mr. Askwith.) What is your position 
aboard the Defender? A. As what? 

Q. What are you, quartermaster? A. No, sir; 
I was sailmaker. 

Q. When you say it was quite rough on Satur- 
day morning, where do you mean — outside or in- 
side? A. Well, it was quite rough coming from 
the dock out to the Defender, which was what I 
referred to when Mr. Choate asked me. 

Q. When you went on board Saturday morning? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What time did you go on board? A. About 
half -past six. 

Q. Are you sure it was rough around the De- 
fender? A. Yes, sir; quite sure. 

Q. Do you know what rough means? A. Yes, 
sir ; I think I do. 



423 



Q. Was it rough outside? A. Yes, sir; a long 
swell outside. 

Q. Had you to pass any portion of the outside 
sea to get to the Defender? A. No, sir, 

Q. Were you in the dock the whole time ; in the 
Basin the whole time? A. At Sandy Hook; yes, 
sir. 

Q. But you are sure it was rough? A. Sure it 
was rough in there. 

Woodbury Kane, called and interrogated. 

By Mr. CJioate : 

Q. Mr. Kane, you were on the Defender on the 
race on the 7th? A. I was. 

Q. You boarded her with Mr. Iselin in the morn- 
ing? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And were there when Mr. Henderson was put 
aboard? A. I was. 

Q. How was the water at this time where the De- 
fender lay? A. Well, there was a slight bobble on ; 
a little wash. 

Q. Not entirely smooth? A. No. 

Q. You are an experienced yachtsman, I believe? 
A. Well, I have done a good deal of sailing on 
yachts. 

Q. Did you know or have any information as to 
what ballast she had that day? Were you told? 
A. Oh, yes. 

Q. Three tons? A. Yes. 

Q. Had you been on her trial races in the Sum- 
mer? A. On all the races. 

Q. Are you experienced enough to state whether 
a boat with which you are as familiar as with the 
Defender, having been on her all Summer, if she 
had from five to fourteen tons of extra ballast be- 
yond the three you were told of, do you think you 
should have known it? A. I think I should. 

Q. By her movements? A. I should think so. 

Q. As the weather was that morning, or even 



424 



the night before, would you have considered it de- 
sirable to have had more ballast than what you 
were told was on her? A. Certainly not ; no. 

Q. Why not? A. Why, I think she would do 
better lighter ; without it. 

Q. Would you give your reasons so that the 
Committee will understand them? A. Well, on 
general principles I should think that a vessel would 
sail better without extra weight in her in a light 
air. I don't know of any other. 

Q. Lord Dunraven is said to have put Mr. Hen- 
derson on board on the port side? A. Yes. 

Q. Where were you then? A. I was standing aft. 

Q. Did you move over to the port side? A. Yes. 

Q. Did others? A. I think there was a general 
movement. 

Q. To look at them? A. Yes. 

Q. From your general experience, can you tell, 
coming up to a boat like the Defender on the side, 
whether she has a list of one or two degrees or 
not? A. Not coining from the side, I should say no. 

Q. Having seen her in the Erie Basin on Friday, 
on coming up to her in such water as she lay in on 
Saturday morning, do you think you could tell 
whether she was immersed two or three or four 
inches more or less than when you had seen her 
the day before? A. I should not think so. 

Q. Why not? A. Well, I think that the condi- 
tion of the water was such. 

Q. Do you think anybody could? A. That I 
can't say. I can only speak for myself. 

Q. Did you know anything of Mr. Iselin's habit 
of examining the boat, before the race began, from 
the previous experience of the Summer? A. I 
think I may say it was his invariable custom to do 
so. 

Q. Before the races began? A. Yes. 

Q. Did you know anything or observe anything 
about his examining her on the Saturday morning? 
A. I saw him looking down the hold. 



425 



Q. You did? A. Yes. 

Q. Shortly before the race began? A. Shortly 
after he came aboard with Mr. Herreshoff . 

Q. When did yon first hear of these charges 
made by Lord Dunraven? A. After the October 
meeting of the Club, I read it in the paper. 

Q. You were not present, I believe, at either 
measurement of the Defender, were you? A. Yes. 

Q. At which measurement? A. Both. 

Q. Do you remember what the wind was on the 
Friday when she was measured and on Sunday 
when she was measured? A. I can't say for cer- 
tain. I think it was rather breezy on Friday. 

Q. On Friday? A. Yes. 

Q. (By Mr. Rives.) Was the sun shining? A. 
I can't remember whether it was shining or not. 

Q. (By Mr. AsTcwith.) Were you present at the 
first measurement? A. Yes. 

Q. Were you on board the boat? A. Yes. 

Q. Whereabouts? A. Amidships. 

Q. You don't quite agree with the last witness 
that the water in the Erie Basin was quite rough? 
A. I was speaking of the Hook. I think I said 
there was quite a bobble on. 

Q. Would you describe it as quite rough? A. 
Well, in degrees of roughness, no, there was not a 
sea on ; there was a wash and swell. 

Q. Are you sufficiently skilled in yachting to be 
able to tell me whether it would be of advantage in 
a heavy sea for the Defender to sail on a measure- 
ment of eighty-eight feet forty-five hundredths, or 
longer. Do you know enough about the Defender 
to say? A. That is longer than what? 

Q. On longer than eighty-eight feet forty-five one 
hundredths? A. No, I couldn't say whether she 
would or not. 

Q. You said you were doubtful whether you could 
tell, supposing a boat had ten tons more of ballast 
in her. Do you think you could tell, supposing 
she had three tons more? A. Do you mean 



426 



to say tell from her sailing when she was nnder 
way? 

Q. Yes? A. I can only say under general prin- 
ciples that the boat I should say would be loggy 
with ten tons. No, I don't think I could tell with 
three. 

Q. Or with five? A. No, I don't think I could. 
I could with ten, though, I think. 

Q. A list of the boat would be comparatively 
easy to see by any one going around and looking 
at it either from the bows or the stern? A. It de- 
pends on the degree of list, of course. 

Q. What amount of list could you detect. I am 
talking of a skilled yachtsman? A. When the 
boat is in absolutely still water? 

Q. Yes? A. I wouldn't like to say how many 
degrees. It would have to be quite appreciable, I 
think. 

Q. Could he tell three degrees? A. I should 
think he ought to be able in absolutely smooth 
water to tell three or four degrees. 

Q. Two degrees? A. I am only speaking of 
myself; I couldn't tell two. 

Q. Not if you were right astern of her? A. I 
couldn't be absolutely sure of it. 

Q. Did you examine any features of the boat — 

were you able to examine any features of the boat 

at the time of the first measurement which would 

enable you to say whether on the day following she 

was lying on the water in the same manner? A. No. 

Mr. Clioate: To expedite matters, I have 

had the statements of the rest of the witnesses 

taken, and I would follow the example that 

was set us by Mr. Askwith the other day and 

have them read as statements and leave the 

witnesses to be further questioned. 

Tlie Chairman : We shall have no objec- 
tion, I suppose. 

Mr. Askwith : As far as regards these mem- 
bers of the crew, the sailors, I am perfectly 



427 



ready to admit now, that, as far as can be 
shown by any cross-examination of these wit- 
nesses — I am only here to assist the Commit- 
tee in the matter — nothing can be proven or 
shown as to their knowledge of any circum- 
stance that may be alleged to exist. 

Mr. Choate : We think a good deal of their 
positive knowledge can be shown, and that it 
is contained in these statements, if they can 
be read, and then be subject to questions. 

Mr. AsJcwith : I should propose then to 
allow these to be read, and unless there is 
something different from the statements already 
made, to allow the subject to pass without any 
cross-examination. 

Willaed G. Haskell, called by Mr Choate. 
Sworn statement read by Mr. Bickford* as fol- 
lows : 

State of Maine, ) 
Hancock County, j 

I, Willaed G. Haskell, being duly sworn, de- 
pose and say that I am twenty-one years of age and 
reside at Deer Isle in the State of Maine, and was 
one of the crew of the yacht Defender during the 
America's cup races in September, 1895. During 
the first week of September the Defender went to 
New Rochelle, where her cabin fixtures, water-tank 
and ice-tank were taken out and about two tons of 
lead put in her hold. On September 6th the De- 
fender was towed to Erie Basin where we loaded 
about twenty-one pigs of lead from the dock onto 
the Hattie Palmer and then transferred the same 
to the Defender, where it was placed on the cabin 
floor. I helped load the said lead on to the Hattie 
Palmer and on to the Defender. This lead was on 
the cabin floor as aforesaid, when the Defender was 
measured on the day last mentioned. Late in the 

* Mr. H. J. Bickford, assisting Mr. Choate. 



428 



day we were towed to Sandy Hook, arriving there 
at about half -past eight o'clock that evening. The 
Hattie Palmer then came alongside and part of the 
Defender's crew passed the said twenty-one pigs of 
lead so lying on the cabin floor of the Defender 
when she was measured, as aforesaid, to the deck 
of the Hattie Palmer. I stood on the deck of the 
Hattie Palmer and took the lead as it was passed 
over from the deck of the Defender and passed it 
along to those who were cutting the lead, and when 
the lead was cut it was passed back to me and I 
passed it over to the men on the deck of the De- 
fender. I could see the lead as it was cut and I 
know that the only lead or other ballast that was 
transferred to the Defender while the Palmer thus 
lay alongside was the lead which was passed from 
the Defender to the Hattie Palmer, as aforesaid. 
The work of cutting and passing this lead back to 
the Defender was completed before ten o'clock that 
night and thereupon the Hattie Palmer left the 
Defender and, as I verily believe, did not again 
come alongside until about ^.ve o'clock the next 
morning. After the race on September 7th the 
Defender was towed to Bay Ridge, arriving there 
at about half -past eight o'clock, and the Hattie 
Palmer came alongside and the men had their sup- 
per and transferred their bedding to the Defender, 
after which, and at about half -past nine o'clock in 
the evening, the Hattie Palmer left the Defender 
and, as I verily believe, did not again come along- 
side before six o'clock the next morning. I was 
on board the Defender or the Hattie Palmer at all 
times between the time when she was measured 
on September 6th and the time when she was 
re-measured on September 8th, and I do not know 
of any lead or other ballast having been put in or 
taken out of the Defender during such times except 
the said lead, which was taken on board the De- 
fender at Bay Ridge which was on the cabin floor 
when the Defender was measured on September 



429 



6th, and which was passed over to the deck of 
the Hattie Palmer, there cut and passed back to 
the Defender, as hereinbefore mentioned, and I 
verily believe that no other lead or ballast was put 
in or taken out of the Defender during such time 
or times. I slept in the forecastle of the Defender 
during the nights of September 6th and 7th 
and I did not hear any such noises as would be 
made by putting in or taking out ballast. 

(Signed) Willakd G. Haskell. 

Sworn to before me this 14th ) 
day of December, 1895. ) 

Elmer P. Spofford, 

Notary Public. 

[l. s.] The words, "were taken out," 
on page 1, were interlined 
before signing. 

E. P. S., 

N. P. 



Q. {By Mr. Clioate.) That is a correct statement, 
is it? A. Yes, sir; as near as I can remember. 

Q. {By Mr. AsTcwith.) Did you carry any pigs of 
lead? A. I took them from the man that brought 
them to the Hattie Palmer, and carried them along 
and passed them to another man who stowed them. 

Q. Do you remember how many you passed? 
A. No ; there were two or three passing at the same 
time as I was. I don't remember how many I 
passed. 

Q. As far as you know, nothing — no extra bal- 
last was put into the boat? A. No, sir. 

Q. {By Mr. Choate.) You know of no water bal- 
last being introduced into her or let out of her? A. 
No, sir. 



430 

Chaeles Scott, called by Mr. Choate. 
Sworn statement read by Mr. Bickford as fol- 
lows : 

State of Maine, ) 
Hancock County, } ss * ' 

I, Charles Scott, being duly sworn, depose 
and say that I am thirty-five years of age and re- 
side at Deer Isle, in the State of Maine, and that I 
was one of the crew of the yacht Defender during 
the America's Cup races in September, 1895. 
During the first week in September the Defender 
went to New Hochelle, where her cabin fixtures, 
water- tank and ice-tank were taken out and about 
forty-two pigs of lead put in her hold. I helped 
to cut a part of said lead and carry it aboard the 
Hattie Palmer, and to transfer it from the Hattie 
Palmer to the Defender. On September 6th the 
Defender was towed to Erie Basin, where we took 
on board the Defender twenty-one pigs of lead 
and placed it on the cabin floor, where it remained 
while the Defender was being measured and until 
we reached Sandy Hook that night. I counted 
the said pigs while they lay on the cabin floor. 
When we reached Sandy Hook the Hattie Palmer 
came alongside and the said twenty-one pigs of 
lead were passed over to the deck of the Hattie 
Palmer, where each pig was cut in two. I stood 
on the deck of the Hattie Palmer and helped to 
cat the said lead, using the maul while Captain 
Haff held the wedge. All but a few pigs, which 
were cut with an axe or a saw, were cut in this 
way. When the said lead had all been cut and 
passed back to the Defender the Hattie Palmer 
left the Defender, and, as I verily believe, did not 
again come alongside before five o'clock the next 
morning. It was between nine and ten o'clock 
when the Hattie Palmer left. I then went down 
into the sail room and helped to pass the said lead 
down into the hold, where it was being stowed 



431 



away. When the last of said lead had been 
stowed away I helped put the hatches down. I 
could see down into the hold, and could see the 
lead as it was being stowed away. When all had 
been so stowed away the tops of the partitions were 
from two to three feet above the lead. I know of 
my own knowledge that the lead so passed from 
the Defender to the Hattie Palmer, and there cut 
and passed back to the Defender, as aforesaid, was 
the same lead which was lying on the cabin floor 
of the Defender when she was measured on Sep- 
tember 6th, and that no other lead was transferred 
to the Defender while the Hattie Palmer lay along- 
side as aforesaid. I was on board the Defender or 
the Hattie Palmer during all of the time between the 
time when the Defender was measured on Sept. 6th 
and the time when she was re-measured on Septem- 
ber 8th, and I do not know of any lead or other 
ballast of any nature or description having been 
put in or taken out of the Defender during such 
period except the said twenty-one pigs of lead 
so transferred to the Hattie Palmer, there cut and 
passed back to the Defender, as aforesaid, and I 
verily believe that no other lead or ballast was put 
in or taken out of the Defender during such period. 
After the race on September 7th the Defender was 
towed to Bay Bidge, where the Hattie Palmer came 
alongside, and the men had their supper and trans - 
ferred their bedding to the Defender, after which, 
and about half -past nine o'clock, the Hattie Palmer 
left the Defender, and, as I verily believe, did not 
again come alongside before six o'clock the next 
morning. 

(Signed) Chas. Scott. 

Sworn to before me this 14th ) 
day of December, 1895. ) 

[l.s.] Elmer P. Spofford, 

Notary Public. 



432 



Q. (By Mr. Choate.') Mr. Scott, is that a true 
statement? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. {By Mr. AsJcwith.) Were you on board when 
the two tons of lead were shipped at New Rochelle — 
were taken on board? A. I was on board the Hat- 
tie Palmer. 

Q. Were they cut up there? A. At New Rochelle, 
did you say? 

Q. Yes? A. I helped put them aboard theHattie 
Palmer, and from the Hattie Palmer aboard the 
Defender. 

Q. Did you cut it up on the Hattie Palmer? A. 
No, sir; at New Rochelle. 

Q. Was it cut up? A. We cut it up at New 
Rochelle. 

Q. {By Mr. Rives.) Did you cut it on the dock 
there? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. {By Mr. AsTiioith.) Did you cut it with a saw 
and chisel? A. Part of it with a saw, and some 
with an axe, and some with a chisel. 

Q. At New Rochelle? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Did you hand back the pigs of lead on the 
night of Friday, after they had been cut under Cap- 
tain Half's direction? A. I passed part of them 
to the man that was stowing them in the hold. 

Q. Do you know how many? A. Oh, perhaps 
eighteen or twenty. 

Q. Did you count them? A. No, I did not. 

Q. {By Mr. Choate.) That is, eighteen or twenty 
pieces that had been cut? A. Yes, sir. 

John Pkessey, called by Mr. Choate. 
Sworn statement read by Mr. Bickford : 

State of Maine, \ 

r SS * 

Hancock County. ) 

John Pressey, being duly sworn, deposes and 
says, that he is thirty-five years of age and re- 
sides at Deer Isle in the State of Maine, and was 
one of the crew of the yacht Defender during the 



433 



America's cup races in September, 1895. During 
the first week of September the Defender went 
to New Rochelle, where her cabin fixtures, water- 
tanks and ice-tank were taken out and some lead 
put in her hold. On September 6th, the Defender 
was towed to Erie Basin, where I helped to load 
twenty-one pigs of lead from the deck onto the 
Hattie Palmer. The said twenty one pigs were 
then put on the Defender and placed on her 
cabin floor, where they lay when she was measured 
on September 6th. Late in the afternoon of that 
day the Defender and the Hattie Palmer were 
towed to Sandy Hook, where they arrived at about 
half -past eight o'clock. The Hattie Palmer then 
came alongside, and the said twenty-one pigs of 
lead were passed over to the deck of the Hattie 
Palmer, where each pig was cut and then passed 
back to the Defender and stowed in her hold. I 
held the lantern while Captain Haff and Charles 
Scott cut the said lead. A few pigs were cut by 
others. I held the lantern until the work was 
done. The Hattie Palmer thereupon and some- 
where about ten o'clock left the Defender, and as 
I verily believe, did not again come alongside un- 
til after five o'clock the next morning. I know 
that the only lead that was cut or transferred to the 
Defender while the Hattie Palmer lay alongside 
as aforesaid was taken out of the Defender, and 
was on the Defender when she was measured that 
day at Erie Basin. After the race on September 
7th the Defender was towed to Bay Ridge, where 
the Hattie Palmer came alongside, and the men 
had their supper and transferred their bedding to 
the Defender, after which the Hattie Palmer left the 
Defender, and, as I verily believe, did not again 
come alongside before six o'clock the next morning. 
I was on board the Defender or the Hattie Palmer 
all of the time from the time that the Defender 
was measured on September 6th to the time when 
she was measured on September 8th, and I do not 



434 



know of any lead or other ballast of any nature 
or description having been put in or taken out of 
the Defender during that time, and I verily be- 
lieve that no lead or other ballast was put in or 
taken out of the Defender [except the said twenty- 
one pigs of lead, so taken out, transferred to the 
deck of the Palmer and there cut and passed 
back to the Defender, as aforesaid,] during such 
time. I slept during the nights of September 6th 
and 7th in the forecastle of the Defender, and I 
heard no noises such as would be made in putting 
in or taking out ballast. During the night of Sep- 
tember @th the Yalkyrie was anchored about one- 
fourth of a mile from the Defender. 

(Signed) John Pressey. 

Sworn to before me this 14th ) 
day of December, 1895. ) 

Elmer P. Spofford, 
[l. s.] Notary Public. 

Q. {By Mr. Choate.) Is that a correct state- 
ment? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. {By Mr. AsJcwitlt.) Do you know whether 
the whole of the pigs were taken back? A. Taken 
back aboard of the Defender, or passed back? 

Q, Do you know whether the whole of them were 
taken back? A. Well, they had to be cut in two. 

Q. Do you know whether you cut up the whole 
of the pigs? A. Yes, sir; I cut the whole twenty- 
one pieces. 

Q. Do you know whether they were all taken 
back? A. I saw them passed to the man, and I 
suppose they were put below. 

Q. You didn't count them? A. No. 

Q. Do you know whether there was any more 
lead on board the Hattie Palmer? A. No. 

Q. Did you say no? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. {By Mr. Choate.) Were you on deck when 
Lord Dunraven put Mr. Henderson aboard? A. 
No, sir; I don't think I was; I don't remember it. 



435 

Horace P. Davis, called by Mr. Choate. 
Sworn statement read by Mr. Bickford : 

State of Maine, ) 
Hancock County, ) 

I, Horace P. Davis, being duly sworn, depose 
and say, that I am fifty years of age, and reside at 
Deer Isle, in the State of Maine, and that I was 
one of the crew of the yacht Defender during the 
races for the America's Cup in September, 1895. 
During the first week of September the Defender 
went to New Rochelle, where her cabin fixtures, 
water-tank and ice-tank were taken out, and about 
forty-two pigs of lead put in her hold. On Sep- 
tember 6th the Defender was towed to Erie Basin, 
where I helped to load twenty-one pigs of lead from 
the dock on to the Hattie Palmer, and to transfer 
the same from the Hattie Palmer to the Defender, 
where it was placed upon the cabin floor. The said 
twenty-one pigs of lead were lying on the cabin 
floor of the Defender when she was measured on 
September 6th. Late that afternoon we were towed 
to Sandy Hook, where we arrived at about half- 
past eight o'clock, and the Hattie Palmer came 
alongside, and the said twenty-one pigs of lead 
were passed up through the hatch and passed over 
to the deck of the Hattie Palmer, and there each 
pig was cut into two pieces and passed back to the 
Defender and stowed in her hold. I stood on the deck 
of the Defender and helped in the work of passing 
the said lead to the deck of the Hattie Palmer. I 
also took some of the pieces as they were passed 
over from the deck of the Palmer and passed them 
down into the hatch of the Defender. From where 
I stood I could see the whole of the deck of the 
Defender and the whole of the deck of the Palmer, 
and could see the men cutting the lead on the deck 
of the Palmer. The work of cutting and stowing 
the said lead was completed before ten o'clock that 
night, and as soon as it was done the Palmer left 



436 



the Defender, and, as I believe, did not again come 
alongside before five o'clock the next morning. 
No lead or other ballast was transferred from the 
Hattie Palmer to the Defender while they thns ]ay 
alongside except the said twenty-one pigs which 
had been lying on the cabin floor of the Defender 
when she was measured, as aforesaid. After the 
race on September 7th, the Defender was towed to 
Bay Ridge, where she arrived at about half-past 
eight o'clock, and the Hattie Palmer came along- 
side. The crew then had their supper and trans- 
ferred their bedding to the Defender, after which, 
and at about half -past nine o'clock, the Hattie 
Palmer left the Defender, and, as I believe, did not 
again come alongside until after six o'clock the 
next morning. I was on board the Defender or the 
Hattie Palmer during the time between the time 
when the Defender was measured on September 
6th and the time when she was re-measured on 
September 8th, and I do not know of any lead or 
other ballast of any nature or description having 
been put in or taken out of the Defender during 
such period except the said twenty-one pigs so 
transferred to the Hattie Palmer, and there cut and 
passed back to the Defender as aforesaid, and I 
verily believe that no other lead or ballast was put 
in or taken out of the Defender during such period. 
During the nights of September 6th and 7th I slept 
in the forecastle of the Defender and I did not 
hear any noises such as would be made by putting 
in or taking out ballast. During the night of Sep- 
tember 6th and the morning of September 7th the 
Valkyrie was anchored not more than one-fourth 
of a mile from the Defender. 

(Signed) Horace P. Davis. 

Sworn to before me this 14th ) 
day of December, 1895. ) 

Elmer P. Spofford, 
[l. s.] Notary Public. 



437 



Q. (By Mr. Choate.) Is your statement, as read, 
correct? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Did you notice the water where the Defender 
lay on Saturday morning? A. Well, there was 
a little swell that morning. 

Q. Not perfectly smooth ? A. No, sir. 

Q. (By Mr. AsTcwith.) Was it " quite rough"? 
A. Not quite rough, sir. You might think so. 
We didn't. 

Q. I don't think so. I was not there. A. There 
was quite a little swell on. 

Q. Did you count the number of pigs of lead that 
were brought back on to the Defender? A. I did 
not. 

Q. You were on board during the first measure- 
ment, I suppose? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Can you say of your own knowledge whether 
the boat was lying true in the water? A. I should 
say she was. 

James Robbins, called by Mr. Choate. 
Sworn statement read by Mr. Bickford, as fol- 
lows : 

State of Maine, ) 

r SS " 

Hancock County. ) 

I, James Robbins, having been duly sworn, do 
depose and say, that I am twenty-two years of age 
and reside in Deer Isle, in the State of Maine, and 
that I was one of the crew of the yacht Defender, 
during the America's cup races in September, 1895. 
During the first week of September the Defender 
went to New Rochelle, where her cabin fixtures, 
water-tank and ice -tank were taken out and about 
two tons of lead put in her hold. September 6th, 
the Defender was towed to Erie Basin, where more 
lead, twenty-one pigs, as I was then informed and 
believe, was taken on board. I helped to pass this 
last-mentioned lead from the Hattie Palmer to the 
Defender, where it was stowed away on the cabin 



438 



floor. This lead was on the cabin floor of the De- 
fender when she was measured that day. Late 
that afternoon the Defender and the Hattie Palmer 
were towed to Sandy Hook, arriving there at about 
half -past eight o'clock. The Hattie Palmer then 
came alongside and the twenty-one pigs of lead 
were passed up to the deck of the Defender, and 
from there they were passed over to the deck of 
the Hattie Palmer, where each pig was cut into 
two pieces and then passed back to the deck of the 
Defender and down into the sail room. I stood 
on the cabin floor and helped to pass said lead to 
the deck, and to take the same as it was passed 
back again after it had been cut. "Not more than 
forty-two pieces were passed down into the sail 
room. This work was finished and the Hattie 
Palmer left the Defender between nine and ten 
o'clock that night. The Hattie Palmer did not 
again come alongside before five o'clock the next 
morning, as I verily believe. Shortly after this 
work was done I went to bed. After the race on 
September 7th, the Defender was towed to Bay 
Ridge, and the Hattie Palmer came alongside and 
the crew had their supper and transferred their 
bedding to the Defender, after which, and at about 
half -past nine o'clock the Hattie Palmer left the 
Defender and did not again come alongside, as I 
verily believe, before six o'clock the next morning. 
I was on board the Defender or the Hattte Palmer 
during all of the time between the time when the 
Defender was measured on September 6th and the 
time when she was remeasured on September 8th, 
and I do not know of any lead or other ballast 
having been put into or taken out of the De- 
fender during such time other than the said 
twenty-one pigs of lead which were transferred 
to the Hattie Palmer, and there cut and 
passed back to the Defender, as hereinbefore men- 
tioned, and I verily believe that no other lead or 
ballast was put in or taken out of the Defender 



439 



during such time. I slept during the nights of 
September 6th and 7th and during said nights 
I did not hear any noises such as would be made in 
putting in or taking out ballast. I was stationed 
on the bowsprit of the Defender and I have noticed 
that her bobstay bolt was about four inches nearer 
the water when the bedding, etc., was in the fore- 
castle and the crew were forward than when she 
was in racing trim and her crew were distributed 
about her deck. 

(Signed) James Robbins. 

Sworn to before me this 16th ) 
day of December, 1895. } 

Elmer P. Spofford, 
[l.s.] Notary Public. 

Q. (By Mr. Choate.) Is that a correct statement? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. When have you noted that the " bobstay bolt 
was about four inches nearer the water, when the 
bedding, etc., was in the forecastle and the crew 
forward, than when she was in racing trim and the 
crew distributed about her deck ; ' ' when did you 
notice that? A. I noticed it at New Rochelle and 
in the Erie Basin and at Sandy Hook. 

Q. What kind of water did she lie in Saturday 
morning, down at the Horseshoe? A. Well, there 
was a swell heaving in ; it was not very rough, but 
the boat was on the move all the time. 

Q. Neither very rough or very smooth ? A. No, 
just a swell heaving in ; most always is. 

Q. Don't you think a lot of ballast might have 
been brought on and put out of that vessel without 
your seeing it? A. I don't think so. 

Q. At any time? A. No, sir. 

Q. Where was your berth; how near to the place 
where the lead was put? A. My berth was on the 
port side, away forward. 

Q. Was there anything between you and the 



440 

place where the lead was? I don't think there was 
anything when in racing trim. 

Q. Did noises resound in that boat easily? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. Did you hear easily what was going on? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. {By Mr. AsJcwiih.) How long have you been 
a sailor ; are you a sailor? A. I have been since I 
was about twelve years old. 

Q. What are you; a fisherman? A. I don't fish 
in winter; I follow coasting. Last year is the 
first year I went yachting in the summer time. 

Q. How old are you now? A. I am twenty-two ; 
in my twenty-third year. 

Stephen Sellees, called by Mr. Choate. 
Sworn statement read by Mr. Bickford as fol- 
lows : 

State of Maine, ) 
Hancock County, ] 

I, Stephen Sellers, being duly sworn, depose 
and say that I am thirty-four years of age and re- 
side at Deer Isle in the State of Maine, and that I 
was one of the crew of the yacht Defender during 
the America's cup races in the month of September, 
1895. During the first week of September the De- 
fender went to New Rochelle, where her cabin fix- 
tures, water-tank and ice-tank were taken out and 
as I was informed and believe, about forty-two pigs 
of lead put in her hold. On September sixth the 
Defender was towed to Erie Basin, where lead was 
transferred from the Hattie Palmer to the Defender 
and placed on the cabin floor, where it remained 
until after the Defender was measured and until 
she reached the Horse Shoe, which she did at about 
half -past eight that evening. When the Defender 
reached Sandy Hook the Hattie Palmer came along- 
side and the lead so lying on the cabin floor, as 
aforesaid, was passed over to the deck of the Hattie 



441 



Palmer, where each pig was cut into two pieces and 
passed back to the Defender and down to me in the 
hold. I was alone in the hold and stowed away all 
of the lead that was passed down into the hold 
while the Hattie Palmer thus lay alongside. Not 
more than forty-two pieces of lead, and no other 
ballast, was then passed to me and by me stowed 
away in the sections of the hold amidships. When 
this lead was stowed away the partitions of the 
sections were about three feet above the lead. The 
last was not more than one foot deep. The last of 
the lead was passed to me about ten o'clock that 
night. The Hattie Palmer left about the same time 
and I believe did not return alongside until about 
five o'clock the next morning. The next morning 
I opened the hatches for Mr. Iselin to look down 
into the hold and put down a pole, which we used 
for that purpose, to see if there was any water in 
the hold. I found none to amount to anything and 
I did not notice any change in the ballast. So far, 
as I could see, it was as I had left it the night before, 
and no more ballast had been put in. After the 
race the Defender was towed to Bay Ridge where 
the Hattie Palmer came alongside. The crew then 
had their supper and transferred their bedding to the 
Defender, after which and at about half-past nine 
o'clock the Hattie Palmer left the Defender, and, as 
I verily believe, did not again come alongside until 
after six o'clock the next morning. I was on board 
the Defender or the Hattie Palmer during all of 
the period between the time when the Defender was 
measured on September sixth and the time when 
she was re-measured on September eighth, and I do 
not know of any lead or other ballast of any nature 
or description having been put in or taken out of 
the Defender during such period, except the said 
twenty-one pigs of lead, weighing as I was informed 
and believe about one ton, which was lying on the 
cabin floor of the Defender when she was first 
measured as aforesaid, and which was passed over 



442 



to the deck of the Hattie Palmer, cut and passed 
back to the Defender as hereinbefore mentioned, 
and I verily believe that no other lead or ballast 
was put in or taken out of the Defender during 
such period. I slept during the nights of Septem- 
ber sixth and seventh in the forecastle of the De- 
fender and during those nights I heard no noises 
such as would be made in putting in or taking out 
ballast. I have observed that when the bedding, 
clothes bags and crew were in the forecastle the 
bobstay bolt was three or four inches nearer the 
water than when the Defender was in racing trim, 
and her crew was distributed about her decks. On 
the morning of September sixth the crew got up 
from five o'clock to half -past five in the morning. 
The bedding and clothes bags were put aboard the 
Hattie Palmer shortly afterwards. During the 
night of September sixth and the morning of Sep- 
tember seventh the Valkyrie was anchored about 
an eighth of a mile from the Defender. 

(Signed) Stephen Sellers. 

Sworn to before me this 14th 
day of December, 1895. 

E. E. Spoffokd, 

Justice of the Peace. 

Q. (By Mr. Choate.) Mr. Sellers, is your state- 
ment as read correct? A. Yes, sir, as far as I can 
remember. 

Q. What lights did you have down there when 
you were stowing away the half pieces of lead as 
they were brought in? A. We had a lantern, sir. 

Q. Who held the lantern? A. Mr. Berry. 

Q. And you stowed the pieces? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Had you helped stow what was there before? 
A. I helped stow the last part of the first two tons. 

Q. And was this put further along forward than 
what was there before? A. There was lead put 
each side of the place where we last put it down. 

Q. And stowed each side, fore and aft? A. Yes, sir. 



443 



Q. And it was stowed in the same way? A. Yes, 
sir. 

Q. And as yon were there conld yon see all the 
lead there was? A. I conld see most of it. 

Q. If there had been any in the wings off to the 
right and left, wonld it have attracted yonr atten- 
tion? A. Oh, yes, sir; I could have seen it. 

Q. And then yon looked down the next morning ; 
was that with the carpenter? A. Mr. Iselin was 
there ; it was in the cabin. 

Q. Looking for water? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Through the hatch, as you looked for water, 
could you see the lead or any part of it? A. No, 
sir, I couldn't see the lead up forward. 

Q. And there was no water there? A. No, sir. 

Q. (By Mr. AsTcwith.) As far as you could see? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. (By Mr. CJtoate.) What kind of water was it 
you lay in on Saturday morning? A. It was a 
little choppy ; wind chopped. 

Q. You say you have seen the removal of that 
the men's bedding, clothes bags and cots, and the 
crew leaving the forecastle, raised the bobstay bolt 
three or four inches? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How often did you notice that? A. I noticed 
it two or three times. 

Q. (By Mr. AsTcwith.) Men's cots are rather 
heavy, are they not? A. Yes, sir, quite heavy, 
containing oil clothes and rubber boots. 

Q. How much does the metal of each cot weigh . 
Fifty pounds ? A. I should think all of that yes, sir. 

Q. How many men were there up in the fore- 
castle? A. I think there were about twenty-four. 

Q. And the bobstay would come down when they 
went down? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Did you examine the bobstay bolt just before 
she was measured at any time? A. No, sir; I 
don't remember any time. 

Q. Did you when she was racing? A. No, sir. 

Q. How far was it above the water? A. Well, I 



444 



should say, when everything was out of the fore- 
castle, and the men amidships, it was eight inches 
in smooth water. 

Q. Eight inches from the bobstay bolt to the 
water? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Do you know that there is a plate, the land- 
ing of which exists between the bobstay bolt and 
the water? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Do you know how far above the water that 
plate would be above the water when she was racing? 
A. About the same distance as would be the stay ; 
about eight inches, I should think. 

Q. It could not be eight inches, because it would 
be below the bobstay bolt. You don't know? A. 
As near as I could judge — I don't know particularly. 

Q. You did not specially examine it? A. As 
near as I could judge, I should think it would be 
eight inches when she was in racing trim. 

Q. When were the first two tons of lead stowed? 
A. Stowed at New Rochelle. 

Q. Do you know? A. Do you want to know the 
date? 

Q. Yes. A. I don't know that I can remember. 

Q. Do you know the day of the week? A. I 
think it was Friday ; I won't be sure. 

Q. You left New Rochelle on Friday and went 
for a sail on Thursday afternoon. Do you remem- 
ber how long before that sail the two tons were 
stowed? A. No, sir; I don't remember. 

Winslow C. Pickering, called by Mr. Choate. 
Sworn statement read by Mr. Bickf ord, as follows : 

State of Maine, ) 

^ ss * 
Hancock County, j 

I, Winslow C. Pickering, being duly sworn, 
depose and say that I am thirty-two years of age and 
reside at Deer Isle, in the State of Maine, and 
was one of the crew of the yacht Defender during 
the races for the America's Cup in the month of 



445 



September, 1895. During the first week of Sep- 
tember the Defender went to New Roche] le, where 
her cabin fixtures, water-tank and ice-tank were 
taken out and about forty-two pigs of lead were 
placed in her hold. On the sixth day of Septem- 
ber the Defender was towed to Erie Basin, where 
twenty-one pigs more were transferred to the De- 
fender from her tender, the Hattie Palmer. I 
helped place this lead upon the cabin floor of the 
Defender, where it remained while the Defender 
was being measured and until she reached Sandy 
Hook at half -past eight o'clock that evening. The 
bedding was placed on board the Defender before she 
reached Sandy Hook. After she reached Sandy 
Hook the Hattie Palmer came alongside of her, and 
the said twenty-one pigs of lead which were taken on 
board at Erie Basin were taken out and passed over 
to the deck of the Hattie Palmer and were there 
cut into two pieces and passed back to the deck of 
the Defender and stowed away in her hold. I stood 
on the deck of the Defender and took some of the 
said lead after it had been so cut, and passed it to 
the men standing on the cabin floor. From where 
I stood I could see the whole of the deck of the 
Defender and the whole of the deck of the Hattie 
Palmer, and could see the lead from the time it 
was passed to the deck of the Hattie Palmer until 
it was passed back to the men standing on the deck 
of the Defender, and no lead could have been 
transferred from the Palmer to the Defender with- 
out having been seen by me while I was thus at 
work. The work of cutting and stowing away the 
said twenty- one pigs of lead was completed at about 
ten o'clock that night, and thereupon the Hattie 
Palmer left the Defender and, as I verily believe, 
did not return again until about five o'clock the 
next morning. I know of my own knowledge that 
no lead or other ballast of any nature or descrip- 
tion was put on board the Defender while the 
Hattie Palmer lay alongside as aforesaid, except 



446 



the said twenty-one pigs of lead which were taken 
on board the Defender at Erie Basin as aforesaid, 
and which were transferred to the Hattie Palmer 
and there cut and passed back to the men standing 
on the deck of the Defender, as hereinbefore men- 
tioned. I slept that night in the forecastle of the 
Defender with the rest of the crew. About one 
o'clock I got up and went on deck for a few min- 
utes. There was then no one at work on the 
Defender except some riggers who were at work 
upon the wire straps of the main sheet blocks. I 
was on deck the next morning when the Hattie 
Palmer came alongside. No lead or other ballast 
was then transferred to the Defender. After the 
race on September 7, the Defender was towed to 
Bay Ridge, arriving there at about half -past eight 
in the evening. The Hattie Palmer then came 
alongside, and the crew had their supper and trans- 
ferred their bedding to the Defender, after which 
and at about half -past nine o'clock in the evening 
the Hattie Palmer went into dock at Bay Ridge, 
and as I verily believe did not again come alongside 
the Defender until after six o'clock the next morn- 
ing. I was on board the Defender or the Hattie 
Palmer at all times between the time when the 
Defender was measured on September sixth, and 
the time w r hen she was re-measured on September 
eighth, and during such period to the best of my 
knowledge and as I verily believe no lead or other 
ballast of any nature or description was transferred 
to or taken out of the Defender other than the said 
twenty-one pigs of lead so transferred to the 
Hattie Palmer and passed back to the Defender as 
aforesaid. 

(Signed) Winslow C. Pickering. 

Sworn to before me this 14th day ) 
of December, 1895. J 

E. E. Spofford, 

Justice of the Peace. 



447 



Q. (By Mr. Choate.) That is a correct state- 
ment? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Do you remember how the water was that 
morning, down inside Sandy Hook, before the 
race? A. The water? 

Q. Yes? Smooth or rough or neither. Do you 
remember anything about it? A. No, sir; I don't 
just at the moment. 

Q. (By Mr. Askwith.) Can you positively say 
whether the Hattie Palmer left the side of the De- 
fender at ten or at eleven? 

Mr. Whitney: On what night? 
Mr. Askwith : On Friday night? 
A. On Friday night at Sandy Hook? 

Q. Yes? A. Ten o'clock. 

Q. Positive? A. About ten o'clock. 

Q. How would you know? Are you positive it 
was ten o'clock exactly? A. No, sir; lam not 
positive it was ten o'clock, but I am positive it was 
not later than that, sir. 

Q. Can you be certain it was not a quarter past 
ten? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You are? You are certain it was not nine 
forty-five? A. I was not sure of that. 

Q. When did you join the Defender as a mem- 
ber of her crew? A. I couldn't tell the exact date. 
I was transferred from the yacht Colonia, sir. 

Q. What month; in what month? A. June, I 
think, sir ; we joined the Defender, or July, rather, 
sir, we joined the Defender. 

Q. Were you in her before the first trial race? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Did you know whether she had her tanks full 
of water or empty when she sailed ? A. In the races ? 

Q. Yes? A. She didn't have any tanks in her 
at all, sir. 

Q. Not during the America's Cup races, but 
during the trial races? A. I don't remember. 

Q. You did not look? A. I don't remember, 
and I couldn't say positive. 



448 



Q. Did you know whether she had any ballast 
in any of the other races? A. Extra ballast. 

Q. Any ballast brought into her besides her 
furniture? A. No, sir; she didn't have any, sir. 

George Stinson, called by Mr. Choate. 
Sworn statement read by Mr. Bickford, as fol- 
lows : 

State oe Maine, ) 

y gg • 
Hancock County, ) 

I, George E. Stepson, being duly sworn, de- 
pose and say that I am years of age 
and reside at Deer Isle in the State of Maine and 
was one of the crew of the yacht Defender during 
the races for the America's Cup in September, 1895. 
During the first week of September the Defender 
went to New Rochelle, where her cabin fixtures, 
water-tank and ice- tank were removed and about 
forty -two pigs of lead were put in her hold. I 
went down into the hold and helped stow this lead 
away in the sections of the hold. There was no 
lead or other ballast in her hold before we stowed 
the forty-two pigs which had been previously cut 
in two so that it could be packed firmly. On Sep- 
tember sixth the Defender was towed to Erie Basin, 
where twenty-one pigs of lead were taken on board 
and placed on the cabin floor. I helped put this 
last mentioned lead on board. Late in the after- 
noon the Defender was towed to Sandy Hook, 
where she arrived about half -past eight o'clock 
that evening. The Hattie Palmer then came along- 
side, and part of the crew of the Defender passed 
the said twenty-one pigs of lead so lying on the 
cabin floor, as aforesaid, while the Defender was 
measured, over on to the deck of the Palmer, where 
it was cut and passed back to and stowed away in 
the hold of the Defender. I stood on the deck of 
the Defender and passed lead down into the sail 
room to some of the crew, who passed it down into 



449 



the hold. From where I stood I could see the 
deck of the Defender and the deck of the Hattie 
Palmer, and could see the lead from the time it 
was passed from the deck of the Defender till it 
was passed back from the deck of the Hattie 
Palmer to the men on the Defender's deck. The 
work of cutting and stowing away the said lead 
was completed by ten o'clock, and I did not stop 
until the work was done. The Hattie Palmer left 
the Defender as soon as this work was done, and, 
as I verily believe, did not again come alongside 
that night. I know of my own knowledge that no 
lead or other ballast of any nature or description 
was transferred from the Hattie Palmer to the De- 
fender while she thus lay alongside or from any 
other boat, except the said twenty-one pigs of lead 
taken on* board the Defender at Erie Basin and 
placed on the cabin floor as aforesaid, and which 
were transferred to the Hattie Palmer, cut and 
passed back to the Defender, as hereinbefore 
mentioned. I went to bed in the forecastle shortly 
after the Hattie Palmer went away. There was a 
doorway leading into the sail room, through which 
the hatches leading down into the hold could 
be seen. After the race of September 7, the De- 
fender was towed to Bay Ridge, arriving there at 
about eight o'clock in the evening. The Hattie 
Palmer then came alongside and stayed long enough 
for the men to get their supper and transfer the 
bedding, etc., to the Defender, after which she 
went into dock at Bay Ridge, at about half-past 
nine o'clock, and, to the best of my knowledge, 
did not again come alongside the Defender before 
six o'clock the next morning. I was on board the 
Defender or the Hattie Palmer at all times between 
the time when the Defender was measured on Sep- 
tember 6th and the time when she was re-measured 
on September 8th, and I do not know of any lead 
or other ballast having been put in or taken out of 
the Defender during any of such times, except the 



450 



said twenty-one pigs hereinbefore mentioned, and 
I verily believe that no other lead or ballast was 
put in or taken out of the Defender, except the 
said twenty-one pigs of lead, during such period 
between the measurement and re-measurement of 
the Defender as hereinbefore mentioned. During 
the nights of September 6th and 7th I did not hear 
any unusual noises on board the Defender after I 
had gone to bed, such as would be made in putting 
in or taking on ballast. 

(Signed) Geoege Stinson. 

Sworn to before me this 14th ) 
day of December, 1895. ) 
E. E. Spoffoed, 

Justice of the Peace. 

Q. {By Mr. Choate.) Is that a correct statement, 
Mr. Stinson? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. (By Mr. Aslcwith.) As far as you know, there 
was no extra ballast brought in? A. As far as I 
know, sir. 

Q. Either in the shape of lead or water or shot 
or quicksilver or anything else? A. No, sir. 

Q. Did you count the pigs of lead when you 
were stowing them at New Rochelle? A. Did I 
count them? 

Q. Yes. A. No, sir. 

Q. Did you count them when you were stowing 
them in the Erie Basin? A. No, sir; I didn't 
stow them. 

Q. You were not engaged in that operation? 
A. No, sir. 

Thomas Hoetojs", called by Mr. Choate. 
Sworn statement read by Bickford as follows : 

State of Maine, ) 
Hancock County, ) 

I, Thomas Hoeton, being duly sworn, depose 
and say that I am thirty years of age, and reside 
at Deer Isle in the State of Maine, and was one of 



451 



the crew of the yacht Defender during the races 
for the America's Cup in the month of September, 
1895. During the first week in September the De- 
fender went to New Rochelle, where her cabin fix- 
tures, water-tank and ice- tank were taken out, 
and about forty-two pigs of lead weighing about 
two tons placed in her hold. So far as I know 
no other ballast was put aboard the Defender 
at that time. On the sixth day of September 
the Defender was towed to Erie Basin, where 
I saw some of the Defender's crew transfer lead 
from the Hattie Palmer and place the same on 
the cabin floor. I was then informed and believe 
that this last-mentioned lead weighed about one 
ton. This lead was lying on the cabin floor when 
the Defender was measured on September 6th. 
Late in the afternoon of that day the Defender and 
her tender, the Hattie Palmer, were towed to Sandy 
Hook, the bedding of the crew having first been 
transferred to the Defender from the Hattie Palmer. 
We reached Sandy Hook about half-past eight 
o'clock in the evening. The Hattie Palmer then 
came alongside, and said ton of lead so lying on 
the deck of Defender as aforesaid, when she was 
measured, was transferred to the Hattie Palmer 
and each pig, about twenty- one in number, was cut 
into two pieces and passed back to some of the 
crew of the Defender, who stowed it away in the 
hold of the Defender. I stood on the deck of the 
Defender and passed some of these pigs to one 
of the crew on the deck of the Hattie Palmer, 
who passed them along to those who were cut- 
ting them. When the lead was cut, as afore- 
said, some of it was passed back to me and I 
passed it down to the men on the cabin floor. 
The work of transferring the lead to the Hattie 
Palmer, cutting it aod stowing it away in the 
hold of the Defender was completed before ten 
o'clock that night, and I assisted until the work 
was done. From where I stood I could watch 



452 



both the deck of the Defender and the deck of the 
Hattie Palmer, and could see the men cut the lead 
under the direction of Captain Half, and I know 
that the lead which was transferred to the De- 
fender, and was stowed away in her hold, was the 
same lead that had been placed on the cabin floor 
of the Defender, as aforesaid, and which was trans- 
ferred to the Hattie Palmer while we lay at Sandy 
Hook, as aforesaid, and that no more lead or other 
ballast was then transferred to the Defender. The 
work of cutting and stowing away said lead was 
completed by ten o'clock that night, and there- 
upon the Hattie Palmer left the Defender, and, as 
I verily believe, did not again come alongside until 
after live o'clock the next morning. I went to bed 
shortly after the Hattie Palmer left the Defender. 
The crew slept in the forecastle, from which there 
was an opening into the mess-room or sail-room, 
which commanded a view of the hatchways open- 
ing into the Defender's hold. After the race on 
September 7, the Defender was towed to Bay 
Ridge, arriving there at about half-past eight 
o'clock in the evening, and the Hattie Palmer 
came alongside and the crew had their supper and 
transferred the beds and bedding from the Hattie 
Palmer to the Defender. The Hattie Palmer then 
went into dock at Bay Ridge, and, as I verily 
believe, did not again come alongside until about 
six o'clock the next morning. During the nights 
of September sixth and seventh, after I had gone 
to bed, I heard no unusual noises. On Sun- 
day, September 8, we went up to Erie Basin, 
and shortly after noon the Defender was re- 
measured. I was aboard the Defender or the Hat- 
tie Palmer at all times between the time when the 
Defender was measured on September 6th and 
the time when she was re-measured on September 
8th, as aforesaid, and I do not know of any lead or 
other ballast having been put in or taken out of the 
Defender during any of such times except the one 



453 



ton of lead which was so transferred from the De- 
fender to the Hattie Palmer and there cut and 
stowed away in the hold of the Defender, as afore- 
said, and I verily believe that no other lead or 
ballast of any nature or description was put in or 
taken out of the Defender during any of such times 
and that the Defender sailed the race on September 
7th with no more ballast than she had when she 
was first measured as aforesaid, and I believe that 
no ballast could be put in or taken out of the De- 
fender when her crew was on board without their 
knowledge. 

(Signed) Thomas Horton. 

Sworn to before me this thirteenth ) 
day of December, 1895. ) 

E. E. Spofford, 

Justice of the Peace. 

By Mr. Choate : 

Q. Is that a correct statement, Mr. Horton? A. 
To the best of my knowledge. 

Q. Do you remember seeing Lord Dunraven come 
aboard, or putting Mr. Henderson aboard? A. No, 
sir, I do not. 

Q. Did you see Mr. Iselin come aboard that 
morning of the race? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Saturday ; can you remember how the water 
was that morning? A. I remember there was a 
swell; it was quite rough outside. 

Q. {By Mr. AsTcwith.) Can you tell me whether 
in the early races of the Defender she had her tank 
full or empty when she sailed? A. I couldn't tell 
you. 

Q. When was that statement taken ; how long 
ago? A. I can't tell you the date. 

Q. Was it taken this month? A. Oh, yes, sir. 

Q. In December? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Was Captain Haff around in Deer Isle col- 
lecting the crew ? A. Captain Haff was down there ; 
yes, sir. 



454 



Q. Did you help stow the first two tons of lead 
at New Rochelle? A. I did not. 

Q. Did you count the number of pigs that came 
on board at the Erie Basin ? A. I did not; no, sir. 

Q. Did it appear to you an odd thing, having 
this load cut up at night? A. No, sir. 

Q. Did you see any pumps the Defender had on 
board? A. I know of one; that is all. 

Q. Was that the pump connecting with this hold 
amidships? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Was there any pump forward? A.. Only in 
the closet. 

Q. Was that on the port or starboard side? A. 
I couldn't say, sir. 

Q. Was it in the bow? A. Yes, sir; it was in 
the bow. 

Q. Can you tell me the size of the pump amid- 
ships? A. I could not. 

Elmer E. Hamblen, called by Mr. Choate. 
Sworn statement read by Mr. Bickford, as fol- 
lows : 

State of Maine, ) 

r SS * 

Hancock County, ) 

I, Elmer E. Hamblen, being duly sworn, depose 
and say, that I am thirty-three years of age and 
reside in Deer Isle in the State of Maine, and was 
one of the crew of the yacht Defender during the 
races for the America's Cup in the month of Septem- 
ber, 1895. During the first week in September the 
Defender went to New Rochelle, where her cabin 
fixtures, water- tank and ice-tank were taken out 
and about forty-two pigs of lead were stowed away 
in her hold. I helped cut these forty- two pigs so 
that they would fit into the sections of the hold. 
On September sixth the Defender was towed down 
to Erie Basin, where I helped to load more lead, 
which was placed on the cabin floor, where it re- 
mained till after the Defender was measured. Late 



455 



in the afternoon the Defender was towed down to 
Sandy Hook, having taken the bedding on board 

at Bay Ridge 

Q. {By Mr. Bickford.) Yon wish to correct that 
" Bay Ridge " to " Erie Basin " ? A. Yes, sir. 

(Reading continued as follows :) 

We reached Sandy Hook abont half -past eight 
o'clock in the evening, and the Hattie Palmer came 
alongside, and a part of the crew began to transfer 
the said lead which was taken on board the De- 
fender at Erie Basin, and which was then lying on 
the cabin floor, to the deck of the Hattie Palmer, 
and to pass it back, after it had been cnt, to De- 
fender ; I went to bed before this work was finished, 
but on account of the noise caused by the handling 
and stowing away of the lead as aforesaid, and on 
account of illness, I did not go to sleep until after 
twelve o'clock. The noise above mentioned stopped 
about ten o'clock, and I heard no noise except that 
caused by the riggers, who were at work until a late 
hour upon the wire straps of the main sheet blocks. 
From where I laid in the forecastle I could see 
through the door into the mess-room or sail room, 
and could see the hatches leading down into 
the hold. These hatches were put down about 
ten o'clock, and they were not taken up again be- 
fore I fell asleep, as aforesaid. After the race on 
September 7 the Defender was towed to Bay Ridge, 
arriving at that place at about half -past eight o'clock 
in the evening. The Hattie Palmer then came 
alongside, and the men had their supper, and trans- 
ferred their bedding, &c, to the Defender, after 
which, and at about half-past nine o'clock, the 
Hattie Palmer went into dock at Bay Ridge, and 
did not again come alongside until after six o'clock 
the next morning. No lead or other ballast was taken 
out of the Defender and put on board the Hattie 
Palmer while she thus lay alongside. I was on 
board the Defender or the Hattie Palmer at all 



456 



times between the time when the Defender was 
measured on September 6th and the time when she 
was re-measured on September 8th, and to my 
knowledge, and as I verily believe, no lead or other 
ballast of any nature or description was put in or 
taken out of the Defender from the time that she 
was measured on September 6th to the time that 
she was re-measured on September 8th. And I 
do further say that I have observed that when the 
bedding, clothes bags and crew are in the fore- 
castle the bobstay bolt is three or four inches nearer 
the water than when the Defender is in racing trim 
and her crew is distributed about the boat. 

(Signed) Elmer E. Hamblen. 

Sworn to before me this 
day of December, 1895. 

E. E. Spoffokd, 

Justice of the Peace. 

Q. (By Mr. Choate.) Is that a substantially 
correct statement ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You say you took the bedding on board at 
Bay Ridge? A. That was a mistake T think, sir; 
at Erie Basin it should have been. 

Q. Did you observe the water that the Defender 
lay in on the morning of Saturday, the day of the 
race? A. Do you mean whether rough or smooth? 

Q. Hough or smooth? A. Quite a chop on. 

Q. About this bilge pump ; when that bilge pump 
was used how did you rig it, up above, or was it by 
a little hand pump in the hold? A. To pump the 
yacht out with? 

Q. Yes? A. Rigged it on deck, sir. 

Q. (By Mr. Askwith.) Was there no pump 
below connected with this hole amidships on the 
port side? A. To pump the boat out with? 

Q. Yes? A. No, sir; I didn't know of it. 

Q. You never saw one if there was one? A. No, 
sir. 



457 



Q. When you say there was quite a chop, what 
time did you say there was quite a chop ; when 
Mr. Iselin came aboard or earlier or later? A. 
About the time we were getting under way. 

Q. What time of day was that? A. I don't 
recollect, sir. 

Q. That was when you were getting under way 
to go down to the start, was it? A. Down to the 
start; yes, sir. 

Q. Do you remember going for this sail the 
Thursday before the races? A. I don't remember. 

Q. Did you go for a sail on the Thursday before 
the races? A. If the yacht went I went; I don't 
remember. 

Q. The yacht went. A. Then I went in it. 

Q. We have heard that they were trying some 
sails that day? A. Probably they were. 

Q. Did the boat appear to you then to be sailing 
rather light on the water; high up? A. I don't 
understand you. 

Q. Did the boat appear to you in that sail on 
Thursday before the race to be sailing rather light 
in the water? A. I couldn't tell you about that; 
I don't know as I noticed. 

Q. Did you know that there was a ton of lead to 
go on board later on? A. I didn't know that there 
was; no, sir. 

Q. You know that ton of lead did go on board 
later? A. No, sir. 

Q. Were you not present when the ton of lead was 
put on board at the Erie Basin? A. At Erie Basin? 

Q. Yes? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. That ton of lead was not on board when she 
went on the sail on Thursday, was it? A. I don't 
remember. 

Q. {By Captain Mahan.) Whereabouts did the 
men sleep ; can you show me on this model? A. 
Yes, sir ; I can show you very nearly, I think, sir. 
There was a bunk went across here, just forward of 
the mast. 



458 



Q. Can you tell how many slept there ; within one 
or two, perhaps? A. Twenty-six or twenty-eight. 
Q. What time did you get up usually? A. Five 
o'clock. 

Q. After you were up did you remain about that 
part of the yacht, for the most part, or scatter 
about? What time did you begin to scatter to get 
breakfast? A. We got breakfast at seven o'clock 
on race mornings. 

Q, On the race mornings what did you do be- 
tween the time you got up and breakfast ; where 
were you? A. We were scattered about the boat 
doing different work. 

Q. (By Mr. Hives.) Did you scrub the deck on 
race mornings? A. Not generally; no, sir. 

Q. (By Mr. Choate.) All the crew of the De- 
fender of last summer live at Deer Isle, do they not? 
A. All the sailors, yes. 

Q. And a large number of them came up with 
you and have been examined here? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. I have the statements of quite a number of 
the crew. I want to know where some of these 
others are: William P. Scott; do you know where 
he is? A. I think he is at North Deer Isle. 

Q. Elmer Hardy; where is he? A. Some of 
these other fellows living up there at that end of 
the island can tell you better. 

Mr. Choate : I now offer the affidavits of 
witnesses who are not here. We sent down to 
Deer Isle and took the statements of all of 
the crew who were there, and those who have 
been presented here in person are those who 
had some distinctive mark in their evidence, 
as of handling the lead which was cut up and 
carried back. We offer, in addition, the affi- 
davits of the others, not thinking it worth 
while to go to the expense and trouble of 
bringing them here. 

They are the affidavits of Florestan Mc- 
Caulay ; Harry Grey ; Walter L. Eaton ; Charles 



459 



A. Barter ; Ernest C. Haskell ; Rollins Staples ; 
Herbert Bray ; Roland G. Small ; Thomas 
Robbins; Samuel Bray; "Warren Bray; Leslie 
Stinson, and Eben Haskell. 

Mr. AsTcwith : Those are all members of the 
crew? 

Mr. Choate : Those are all members of the 
crew. I think we ought not to detain the 
Commission now to read their statements. 
They are substantially uniform, in denying all 
knowledge on their part of any ballast, except 
the one ton, having been brought in or taken 
out from the Defender, from the time she left 
New Rochelle until after the second measure- 
ment on Sunday. 

The Chairman : You may look at them, Mr. 
Ask with, to see if you have any objections to 
make. 

Mr. Choate : They are like yours. Yery 
much alike. 

Mr. AsTcwith : If they are printed on the 
shorthand notes I can read them through then. 
They are of the same type? 

Mr. Choate: They are substantially of the 
same type. 

The Chairman : We will hear any sugges- 
tion you have to make about them, if any, Mr. 
Ask with. 

Samuel Beay, sworn statement, read by Mr. 
Bickford, as follows : 

State of Maine, ) 

-»-r- r SS " 

Hancock County, ) 

I, Samuel Bray, having been duly sworn, do 
depose and say : That I am twenty-seven years of 
age and reside in Deer Isle, in the State of Maine, 
and that I was one of the crew of the yacht De- 
fenderduring the America's Cup races in Septem- 
ber, 1895. During the first week in September the 



460 



Defender went to New Rochelle, where her cabin 
fixtures, water-tank and ice-tank were taken out 
and about two tons of lead put into her hold. Sep- 
tember 6th the Defender was towed to Erie Basin, 
where about one ton more lead was taken on board 
and placed on her cabin floor, where it remained 
until after she was measured that day. Late that 
afternoon the Defender and the Hattie Palmer were 
towed to Sandy Hook, arriving there at about half- 
past eight o'clock in the evening. The Hattie 
Palmer then came alongside and I helped to pass 
the said one ton of lead (about twenty-one pigs), 
which was lying on the cabin floor, up through 
the Defender's hatch to the deck, from which 
it was passed across to the deck of the Hattie 
Palmer, and was there cut and passed back 
to the deck of the Defender, and down her 
hatch. I took some of the pieces as they were 
thus passed down the hatch, and passed them 
on down into the hold or laid them down on the 
cabin floor. The men in the hold could not stow 
the lead away as fast as it was passed down into 
the sail-room, and there were several pieces lying 
on the cabin floor when the last of the lead was put 
down the hatch into the sail-room. The only lead 
that was passed out of the Defender that night 
while the Hattie Palmer thus lay alongside was the 
said lead that was lying on the floor of the sail- 
room or cabin, as aforesaid, when the Defender was 
measured that day ; and to the best of my knowl- 
edge, and as I verily believe, no other lead was 
then passed down into the sail-room. After the 
race, on September 7th, the Defender was towed to 
Bay Ridge, where the Hattie Palmer came along- 
side, and the men had their supper and transferred 
their bedding to the Defender, after which, and at 
about half -past nine o'clock in the evening, the 
Palmer went into dock at Bay Ridge, and, as I 
verily believe, did not again come alongside before 
six o'clock the next morning. I slept during the 



461 



nights of September 6th and 7th in the forecastle 
of the Defender, and during those nights I did not 
hear any noises such as would be made by putting 
in and taking out ballast. During all of the time, 
from the time the Defender was measured on Sep- 
tember 6th to the time she was re-measured on 
September 8th, I was on board the Defender or the 
Hattie Palmer, and I do not know of any lead or 
other ballast of any nature or description being put 
into or taken out of the Defender during such time, 
except the said lead which was transferred from 
the Defender to the Hattie Palmer, there cut and 
passed back to the Defender, as hereinbefore men- 
tioned, and I verily believe that no other lead or 
ballast was put into or taken out of the Defender 
during such time. On the night of September 7th 
the crew of the Defender went to bed about half- 
past nine o'clock and did not get up until the next 
morning. 

(Signed) Samuel Beat. 

Sworn to before me this 16th 
day of December, 1895. 

[L.S.] Elmee P. Spoffoed, 

Notary Public. 

Roland G. Small. Sworn statement read by 
Mr. Bickford as follows : 

State of Maine, ) 

> SS * 

Hancock County, ) 

I, Roland G. Small, being duly sworn, depose 
and say that I am twenty-nine years of age and re- 
side in the town of Deer Isle, in the State of Maine, 
and that I was one of the crew of the yacht De- 
fender during the races for the America's Cup in 
September last. During the first week of Septem- 
ber the Defender went to New Rochelle, where her 
cabin fixtures, water-tank and ice-tank were taken 
out and about forty -two pigs of lead, weighing in 



462 



the aggregate about two tons, were placed in her 
hold. So far as I know no other ballast was put 
aboard at that time. On September 6th the De- 
fender was towed to Erie Basin, where one more 
ton of lead was transferred from the Hattie Palmer 
to the Defender and laid upon her cabin floor. I 
helped place this lead on the cabin floor, where it 
remained while the Defender was being measured 
and until we reached Sandy Hook that night. 
When we reached Sandy Hook the Hattie Palmer 
came alongside the Defender, and I saw the crew 
of the Defender pass the lead so lying on the cabin 
floor of the Defender as aforesaid, when she was 
measured, to the deck of the Hattie Palmer, cut 
the pigs into two pieces, pass it back to and stow 
it away in the hold of the Defender. Only a part 
of the Defender's crew was engaged in this work, 
and the work was completed by ten o'clock that 
night. The Hattie Palmer thereupon left the De- 
fender, and as I verily believe did not again come 
alongside until after five o'clock the next morning. 
I slept that night in the forecastle of the Defender 
with the rest of the crew. There was an opening 
from the forecastle into the mess-room or sail-room 
which was open that night. After the race on 
September 7, the Defender was towed to Bay 
Ridge, arriving there at about half -past eight 
o'clock, and the Hattie Palmer came alongside and 
the crew ate their supper and transferred their beds 
and bedding from the Hattie Palmer to the De- 
fender, after which, and at about half-past nine 
o'clock in the evening, the Hattie Palmer went 
into dock at Bay Ridge and did not again come 
alongside the Defender until about six o'clock the 
next, morning. On Sunday, September 8, we went 
into Erie Basin, and shortly after noon the De- 
fender was re-measured. I was aboard the De- 
fender or the Hattie Palmer at all times between 
the time when the Defender was measured on 
September 6th and the time when she was re- 



463 



measured on September 8th, and I do not know of 
any lead or other ballast having been put in or 
taken out of the Defender during any of such times 
except the one ton of lead so transferred to the 
Hattie Palmer and there cut and passed back to 
the Defender while she was lying at Sandy Hook 
as aforesaid, and I verily believe that no lead or 
other ballast, other than the one ton hereinbefore 
mentioned, was put in or taken out of the Defender 
between the time when she was measured and the 
time when she was re-measured, as aforesaid, and 
that she sailed the race on September 7th with no 
more ballast than she had when she was measured 
on September 6th, and it is my belief that no 
ballast could have been placed in the Defender 
without my knowledge and without the knowledge 
of her crew. I have observed that when the bed- 
ding, clothes, bags and crew were in the forecastle 
the Defender's bobstay bolt was three or four inches 
nearer the water than when she was in racing trim 
and her crew was distributed about the boat. 

(Signed) Roland G. Small. 

Sworn to before me the 13th I 
day of December, 1895. j 

E. E. Spoffokd, 

Justice of the Peace. 



State of Maine, ) 
Hancock County, ) 

I, Floeestan McCauley, being duly sworn, de- 
pose and say that I am twenty-four years of age 
and reside in the town of Deer Isle, in the State of 
Maine, and was one of the crew of the yacht De- 
fender during the races for the America's Cup in 
the month of September, 1895. During the first 
week of September the Defender went to New Ro- 
chelle, where her cabin fixtures, water tank and ice 
tank were taken out and about forty pigs of lead 
placed in her hold. I helped Captain Han cut these 



464 



pigs into two pieces. So far as I know no other bal- 
last was put aboard the Defender at that time. On 
the sixth day of September, the Defender was towed 
to Erie Basin, where more lead was put on board the 
Defender. I do not remember how much. It lay 
upon the cabin floor while the Defender was being 
measured, and until we reached Sandy Hook that 
night. Late that afternoon we were towed down to 
Sandy Hook, the bedding having first been trans- 
ferred from the Hattie Palmer to the Defender, and 
the Hattie Palmer came alongside. We reached 
Sandy Hook at about half -past eight in the evening, 
and at once began to transfer the lead lying on the 
cabin floor of the Defender, as aforesaid, when she 
was measured, to the Hattie Palmer, where each 
pig was cut into two pieces, passed back to the 
Defender and stowed away in her hold. I stood on 
the deck of the Defender and passed some of the 
pigs over to one of the men who stood on the deck 
of the Hattie Palmer, and received some of the 
pieces after the pigs had been cut from one of the 
men on the deck of the Hattie Palmer and passed 
them to the man standing on the cabin floor. From 
where I stood I could see what was going on on the 
deck of the Defender and on the deck of the Hattie 
Palmer, and could see the men cut the lead as 
aforesaid, under the supervision of Captain Half. 
I did not stop work until all of the lead had been 
cut and passed back from the deck of the Hattie 
Palmer to the deck of the Defender. I know of my 
own knowledge that no lead or other ballast of any 
nature or description was transferred from the Hat- 
tie Palmer to the Defender while they thus lay 
alongside, except the said lead which had been 
placed upon the cabin floor of the Defender and 
which remained there while she was being measured, 
as aforesaid, and which was taken out and trans- 
ferred to the deck of the Hattie Palmer and there 
cut as hereinbefore mentioned. As soon as the 
said lead had been cut and passed back to the 



465 



Defender, the Hattie Palmer left the Defender, and, 
as I verily believe, did not again come alongside 
until about five o'clock the next morning. To the 
best of my recollection the Hattie Palmer left the 
Defender at about ten o'clock on the said night of 
September 6th. I went to bed shortly after the 
Hattie Palmer left. I slept in the forecastle with 
the rest of the crew. There was a doorway open- 
ing into the mess room or sail room (the door had 
been taken off) through which could be seen the 
hatches leading down into the hold. After the 
race of September 7, the Defender was towed to 
Bay Ridge, where the Hattie Palmer came along- 
side. The crew had their supper, and transferred 
their bedding to the Defender, after which, and at 
about half -past nine that evening, the Hattie Palmer 
put into dock at Bay Ridge, and, as I verily be- 
lieve, did not again come alongside before six 
o'clock the next morning. On Sunday, September 
8, we were towed to Erie Basin, and shortly after 
noon the Defender was re-measured. I was aboard 
the Defender or the Hattie Palmer at all times be- 
tween the time when the Defender was measured 
on September 6th and the time when she was re- 
measured on September 8th, and I do not know 
of any lead or other ballast having been put in or 
taken out of the Defender during any of such 
period, except the said lead which was lying on 
the cabin floor, as aforesaid, when the Defender 
was first measured, as aforesaid, and I verily be- 
lieve that no other lead or ballast was put in or 
taken out the Defender during such period. 
During the night of September 6th and the night 
of September 7th, I heard no unusual noises about 
the Defender after I had gone to bed. 

(Signed) Florestan McCauley. 

Sworn to before me this thirteenth ) 
day of December, 1895. ) 

[l.s.] E. E. Spofford, 

Justice of the Peace. 



466 
State of Maine, 



Hancock County, 

I, Harry Gray, having been duly sworn, do de- 
pose and say that I am twenty-three years of age 
and reside in Deer Isle, in the State of Maine, and 
that I was one of the crew of the yacht Defender 
in the month of September, 1895. During the first 
week of September the Defender went to New Ro- 
chelle, where her cabin fixtures, water tank and ice 
tank were taken out, and about forty-two pigs of 
lead put in her hold. I helped to put this lead 
aboard the Hattie Palmer and to transfer the same 
to the Defender. September 6th the Defender was 
towed to Erie Basin, where more lead was put 
on board and placed upon the cabin floor, where it 
remained while the Defender was measured that 
day. The bedding, etc., was taken on board the 
Defender in Erie Basin, and late in the afternoon 
she was towed to Sandy Hook. I went to bed in 
the forecastle on the way down to Sandy Hook. I 
could not sleep on account of the noise made by 
the crew in putting ballast into the Defender's hold. 
The noise stopped between nine and ten o'clock. 
After the race on September 7th, the Defender was 
towed to Bay Ridge, where the Hattie Palmer 
came alongside and the crew had their supper and 
transferred their bedding to the Defender, after 
which, and at about half -past nine o'clock, the 
Hattie Palmer left the Defender, and, as I verily 
believe, did not again come alongside before six 
o'clock the next morning. I was on board the De- 
fender or the Hattie Palmer all of the time between 
the time when the Defender was measured on Sep- 
tember 6th and the time when she was re-meas- 
ured on September 8th, and I do not know of any 
ballast having been put into or taken out of the 
Defender during such time, except the said lead 
which was put on board the Defender at Erie Basin, 
and which was, as I am informed and believe, trans- 
ferred to the deck of the Hattie Palmer, and there 



467 



cut and passed back to the Defender and stowed in 
her hold on the evening of September 6th, and I 
verily believe that no other lead or ballast was pat 
into or taken out of the Defender during such time. 
I slept in the forecastle of the Defender during the 
nights of September 6th and 7th, and during those 
nights I did not hear any noises such as would be 
made in putting in or taking out ballast except as 
hereinbefore mentioned. 



(Signed) Harry Gray. 

Sworn to before me this 16th ) 
day of December, 1895. > 

[l.s.] Elmer P. Spofford, 

Notary Public. 

State of Maine, > 
Hancock County, j 

I, Walter L. Eaton, having been duly sworn, 
do depose and say, that I am twenty years of age 
and reside at Deer Isle, in the State of Maine, and 
that I was one of the crew of the yacht Defender 
during the America's Cup races in September, 
1895. During the first week of September the De- 
fender went to New Rochelle, where her cabin fix- 
tures, water-tank and ice-tank were taken out and 
about forty- two pigs of lead put in her hold. I 
helped to transfer the said lead from the Hattie 
Palmer to the Defender. September 6th the De- 
fender was towed to Erie Basin, where about twenty- 
one pigs of lead were taken from the dock and put 
on the Hattie Palmer and then transferred to the 
Defender and placed on her cabin floor, where they 
remained until after the Defender was measured 
that day. I helped to load the said twenty-one 
pigs from the dock onto the Hattie Palmer. Late 
that afternoon the Defender and the Hattie Palmer 
were towed to Sandy Hook, and the Hattie Palmer 
came alongside. The said twenty- one pigs of lead 



468 



were passed up through the Defender's hatches to 
the men on her deck, who passed them over to the 
deck of the Hattie Palmer, where each pig was cut 
into two pieces and passed back to the men on the 
deck of the Defender, who passed them down into 
her sail-room. I stood on the deck of the Defender 
and passed some of the pieces over to the Hattie 
Palmer, and took some of the pieces as they were 
passed back and passed them on down into the 
sail-room. This work was finished between nine 
and ten o'clock that night and the Hattie Palmer 
thereupon left the Defender, and as I verily believe 
did not again come alongside before five o'clock 
the next morning. From where I stood I saw all 
that was going on on the decks of the Defender and 
the Hattie Palmer, and the only lead or other ballast 
that was transferred from the Hattie Palmer as she 
thus lay alongside was the twenty- one pigs of lead 
which were lying on the cabin floor of the De- 
fender when she was measured that day, which 
had been passed over to the deck of the Hattie 
Palmer and there cut as aforesaid. After the race 
on September 7th, the Defender was towed to Bay 
Kidge, where the Hattie Palmer came alongside, 
and the men had their supper and transferred their 
.bedding to the Defender, after which, and at 
about half -past nine o'clock, the Hattie Palmer 
went away, and as I believe did not again come 
alongside until after six o'clock the next morn- 
ing. I slept during the nights of September 6th 
and 7th in the forecastle of the Defender, and 
during those nights I heard no noises such as 
would be made in putting in or taking out ballast. 
I was on board the Defender or the Hattie Palmer 
at all times from the time when the Defender was 
measured on September 6th to the time when she was 
re-measured on September 8th, and I do not know 
of any lead or other ballast of any nature or de- 
scription having been put into or taken out of the 
Defender except the said twenty-one pigs of lead 



469 



hereinbefore mentioned, and I verily believe that 
no other lead or ballast was put into or taken out 
of the Defender during such times. 

(Signed) Walter L. Eaton. 

Sworn to before me this 16th 
day of December, 1895. 

Elmer P. Spofford, 
[l.s.] Notary Public. 

State of Maine, ) 

r SS * 

Hancock County, ) 

I, Charles A. Barter, being duly sworn, de- 
pose and say, that I am years of age and 
reside in Deer Isle, in the State of Maine, and was 
one of the crew of the yacht Defender during the 
America's Cup races in September, 1895. During 
the first week of September, the Defender went to 
New Rochelle, where her cabin fixtures and water 
and ice-tanks were taken out and about forty-two 
pigs of lead placed in her hold. On September 
sixth she was towed to Erie Basin, .where about 
twenty-one pigs were taken on board and placed 
upon the cabin floor, where they remained until 
the Defender reached Sandy Hook that night at 
about half -past eight o'clock. The Hattie Palmer 
then came alongside, and part of the crew passed 
the said twenty- one pigs of lead over to the 
deck of the Hattie Palmer, where it was cut 
under the supervision of Capt. Haff, and was then 
passed back to the deck of the Defender and down 
into her hold. I did not help in this work, but I was 
about the deck of the Defender, and saw the lead as 
it was being passed back and forth, as aforesaid, 
and I know of my own knowledge that no other 
lead than the said twenty -one pigs was transferred 
from the Hattie Palmer to the Defender and 
that no other ballast was transferred to the De- 
fender while the Hattie Palmer lay alongside, as 



470 



aforesaid. The work of cutting and stowing away 
the said lead was completed by ten o'clock that 
night and the Hattie Palmer then left the Defender, 
and, as I verily believe, did not again come along- 
side until about five o'clock the next morning. 
After the race on September 7th the Defender was 
towed to Bay Ridge, arriving there at about half- 
past eight o'clock, and the Hattie Palmer came 
alongside and the men had their supper and trans- 
ferred their bedding to the Defender, after which 
and at about half -past nine o'clock the Hattie 
Palmer left the Defender and as I believe did not 
again come alongside until after six o'clock the 
next morning. I was aboard the Defender or the 
Hattie Palmer at all times between the time when 
the Defender was measured on September 6th and 
the time when she was re-measured on September 
8th and I do not know of any lead or other ballast 
having been put aboard the Defender at any time 
during such period, and I verily believe that no lead 
or other ballast other than the twenty- one pigs of 
lead taken on board when the Defender was at Erie 
Basin as aforesaid, and which was lying upon the 
cabin floor when the Defender was measured was 
put in or taken out of the Defender during such 
period. I slept with the crew in the forecastle 
which had an opening into the sail room and I 
verily believe that no ballast could have been put 
into the Defender while I was asleep without my 
knowledge. During the nights of September 6th 
and 7th I heard no unusual noises such as would 
be made by putting in or taking out ballast. 

(Signed) Charles A. Barker. 

Sworn to before me this 14th ) 
day of December, 1895. ) 

[l. s.] E. E. Spofford, 

Justice of the Peace. 



471 



State of Maine, ) 
Hancock County, j 

I, Ernest C. Haskell, being duly sworn, do de- 
pose and say, that I am twenty-six years of age, 
and reside in Deer Isle, in the State of Maine, and 
that I was one of the crew of the yacht Defender 
during the America's Cup races, in September, 1895. 
During the first week in September, the Defender 
was taken to New Pochelle, where her cabin fixtures, 
water-tank and ice-tank were taken out and about 
forty-two pigs of lead put in her hold. I helped to 
put this lead aboard the Hattie Palmer, from which 
it was transferred to the Defender. September 6th 
the Defender was towed to Erie Basin, where I 
helped to load about twenty- one pigs of lead from 
the dock to the Palmer, from which it was trans- 
ferred to the Defender and placed on the cabin 
floor, where it remained until after the Defender 
was measured that day. Late that afternoon the 
Defender and the Hattie Palmer were towed to 
Sandy Hook, arriving there at about half- past 
eight o'clock, as I am informed and believe. On 
the way to Sandy Hook I went to bed and fell asleep 
before we arrived there. During the evening I was 
awakened by loud noises on the deck and in the sail- 
room of the Defender and could not get to sleep 
again until the noises ceased between nine and ten 
o'clock. I slept in the forecastle, from which 
there was an opening into the sail -room. I was on 
board the Defender or the Hattie Palmer all of 
the time between the time when the Defender was 
measured on September 6th and the time when she 
was re-measured on September 8th, and I do not 
know of any lead or other ballast of any nature or 
description having been put into or taken out of 
the Defender during such time, except the said 
twenty-one pigs of lead taken on at Erie Basin, 
which were, as I was informed and believe, trans- 
ferred from the Defender to the Palmer and there 
cut and passed back to the Defender and stowed 



472 



in her hold, on the night of September 6th, after 
the Defender had arrived at Sandy Hook, and I 
verily believe that no other lead or ballast was put 
into or taken out of her during such period. I 
slept during the nights of September 6th and 7th 
in the forecastle of the Defender, and during those 
nights I heard no noises such as would be made in 
putting in or taking out ballast except as aforesaid. 
I have observed that when the bedding was in the 
forecastle and the crew w T ere all forward that the 
bobstay bolt was about four inches nearer the 
water than when the Defender was in racing trim 
and her crew amidships. 

(Signed) Ernest C. Haskell. 

Sworn to before me this 16th 
day of December, 1895. 

Elmer P. Spofford, 
[l. s.] Notary Public, 

State of Maine, ) 
Hancock County, ) 

I, Rollins Staples, being duly sworn, depose 
and say, that I am thirty-one years of age, and re- 
side in Deer Isle, in the State of Maine, and was 
one of the crew of the yacht Defender during the 
America's Cup races in September, 1895. During 
the first week in September 'the Defender went to 
New Rochelle, where her cabin fixtures, water- 
tank and ice-tank were taken out and about forty- 
two pigs of lead put in her hold. On September 
sixth the Defender was towed to Erie Basin, where 
more lead was put on board before she was measured, 
and placed upon her cabin fioor. Late in the after- 
noon we were towed to Sandy Hook. On the way 
down I went to bed and fell asleep before we 
reached Sandy Hook. I was awakened by the noise 
made by the crew in cutting and stowing the said 
lead which had been taken on board at Erie Basin. 
The noise ceased about ten o'clock, after which 



473 



time I went to sleep. After the race on September 
7th the Defender was towed to Bay Ridge, where 
the Palmer came alongside and the men had their 
supper and transferred their bedding to the De- 
fender, after which the Palmer went away, and, as 
I verily believe, did not again come alongside until 
after six o'clock the next morning. I was on board 
the Defender or the Hattie Palmer at all times be- 
tween the time when the Defender was measured 
on September 6th and the time when she was re- 
measured on September 8th, and I do not know of 
any lead or other ballast having been put in or 
taken out of the Defender during such time except 
the said lead so taken on board at Erie Basin, as 
aforesaid, and which was, as I am informed and 
believe, transferred to the Hattie Palmer, and there 
cut and passed back to the Defender during the 
evening of September 6th, and I verily believe that 
no other lead or ballast was put in or taken out of 
the Defender during such period. I slept during 
the nights of September sixth and seventh in the 
forecastle of the Defender, and I heard no noises 
such as would be made by putting in or taking out 
ballast except as hereinbefore mentioned. 

(Signed) Rollins Staples. 

Sworn to before me this 14th ) 
day of December, 1895. ) 

Elmer P. Spofford. 
[l. s.] Notary Public. 



ss. : 



State of Maine, 
Hancock County, 

I, Thomas Robblns, being duly sworn, depose 
and say, that I am twenty-seven years of age and 
reside in Deer Isle, in the State of Maine, and was 
one of the crew of the yacht Defender during the 
America's Cup races, in the month of September, 
1895. During the first week of September, the 
Defender went to New Rochelle, where her cabin 



474 



fixtures, water-tanks and ice-tanks were taken out 
and lead weighing, as I was informed and believe, 
about two tons, was put in her hold. On Septem- 
ber sixth, the Defender was towed to Erie Basin, 
where more lead was taken on board and placed on 
the cabin floor, where it remained while the De- 
fender was being measured and until she reached 
Sandy Hook, which she did at about half -past eight 
o'clock that evening. The bedding had been taken 
on board the Defender at Bay Hidge before going 
down to Sandy Hook. After reaching Sandy Hook 
the Hattie Palmer came alongside and a part of the 
Defender's crew took the lead which had been taken 
on board at Erie Basin, and which was lying on the 
cabin floor as aforesaid, while the Defender was 
measured, and passed it over to the deck of the 
Hattie Palmer, where each pig was cut into two 
pieces, and passed back to the men standing on the 
deck of the Defender, who passed it down to the 
men on the cabin floor. I stood on the cabin floor 
and took the lead as it was passed down from the 
deck and passed it on to Captain Berry, who passed 
it to Thomas Sellers in the hold. I do not know 
the exact number of pieces thus passed into the 
hold, but to the best of my knowledge, and as I 
verily believe, not more than forty-two pieces of 
lead were thus passed down into the hold, and I 
know the said lead to be the same lead that was 
lying on the cabin floor, as aforesaid, when the De- 
fender was measured on September sixth. The 
work of cutting and stowing away this lead was 
completed about ten o'clock that night, and there- 
upon the Hattie Palmer left the Defender, and, as 
I verily believe, did not again come alongside 
until about five o'clock the next morning. The 
clothes bags and bedding were put aboard the Hat- 
tie Palmer shortly after she came alongside. 
After the race on September seventh, the Defender 
was towed to Bay Ridge, and the Hattie Palmer 
came alongside and the crew had their supper and 



475 



transferred their bedding, etc., to the Defender, 
after which, and at about half-past nine o'clock in 
the evening, the Hattie Palmer went to dock 
at Bay Ridge, and, as I verily believe, did 
not again come alongside until after six o'clock 
on Sunday morning. I was on board the Defender 
or the Hattie Palmer at all times between the time 
when the Defender was measured on September 6th 
and the time when she was re-measured on Sep- 
tember 8th, and I do not know of any lead or other 
ballast of any nature or description having been 
put in or taken out of the Defender during such 
period except the said lead which was lying on the 
cabin floor of the Defender when she was measured, 
as aforesaid, and which was transferred to the 
Hattie Palmer, cut and passed back to the De- 
fender, as hereinbefore mentioned, and I verily be- 
lieve, that no other lead or ballast was put in or 
taken out of the Defender during such time. Dur- 
ing the nights of September 6th and 7th I slept in 
the forecastle of the Defender, and I heard no 
noises such as would be made by putting in or tak- 
ing out ballast. During the night of September 
6th and the morning of September 7th, the Val- 
kyrie was anchored about one -eighth of a mile from 
the Defender. 

(Signed) Thomas Bobbins. 

Sworn to before me this 14th ) 
day of December, 1895. } 

[l.s.] E. E. Spoffokd, 

Justice of the Peace. 



State of Maine, . 

r SS 

Hancock County, 

I, Waeken Beay, having been duly sworn, do 
depose and say that I am thirty-five years of age 
and reside in Deer Isle, in the State of Maine, and 
that I was one of the crew of the yacht Defender 
during the America's Cup races in September, 1895. 



476 



During the first week in September the Defender 
went to New Rochelle, where her cabin fixtures, 
water-tank and ice-tank were taken out and about 
forty-two pigs of lead, weighing about two tons, 
were cut and put in her hold. I helped to put the 
said lead aboard. September 6th the Defender was 
towed to Erie Basin, where more lead was taken on 
board and placed on the floor of the sail-room, where 
it remained until after the Defender was measured 
that day. Late that afternoon the Defender and 
the Hattie Palmer were towed to Sandy Hook, 
arriving there at about half -past eight o'clock. 
The Hattie Palmer then came alongside. I helped 
to pass the said lead, which was lying on the sail- 
room floor to the deck of the Defender. There were 
not over twenty-one pigs of lead thus passed up to 
the deck of the Defender that night. From the 
deck of the Defender the said pigs were passed over 
to the deck of the Hattie Palmer, where they were 
cut in two and passed back to the Defender and 
down into the sail-room. I helped to take the said 
lead as it was passed down into the sail-room and 
to pass it on down into the hold, or pile it up on 
the floor. Not over forty-two pieces were thus 
passed down into the sail-room at that time. This 
work was finished between nine and ten o'clock 
that night, and thereupon the Hattie Palmer left 
the Defender, and, as I verily believe, did not again 
come alongside the Defender before five o'clock the 
next morning. The crew went to bed shortly after 
the Hattie Palmer went away. The Hattie Palmer 
came alongside about five o'clock the next morn- 
ing and about half -past five the crew had their 
breakfast and transferred their bedding, etc., to the 
Palmer. After the race that day the Defender was 
towed to Bay Ridge, arriving there at about half- 
past eight o'clock, and the crew had their supper 
and transferred their bedding to the Defender, after 
which and at about half-past nine o'clock, the Hat- 
tie Palmer left the Defender, and, as I believe, did 



477 



not again come alongside before six o'clock the next 
morning. The crew of the Defender then went to 
bed. I was on board the Defender or the Hattie 
Palmer all of the time between the time when the 
Defender was measured on September 6th and the 
time when she was re-measured on September 8th, 
and I do not know of any lead or other ballast hav- 
ing been put in or taken out of the Defender during 
such time other than the said lead, which was trans- 
ferred to the Hattie Palmer and there cut and passed 
back to the Defender, as hereinbefore mentioned, 
and I verily believe that no other lead or ballast 
was put into or taken out of the Defender during 
such time. I slept during the nights of Septem- 
ber 6th and 7th in the forecastle of the Defender 
and during such nights I did not hear any noises 
such as would be made in putting in or taking out 
ballast. I have noticed that when the bedding, 
etc., of the crew was in the forecastle of the De- 
fender and the crew were forward that the bobstay 
bolt was about four inches nearer the water than 
when the Defender was in racing trim and her crew 
was distributed about her deck. 



(Signed) Warren Bray. 



Sworn to before me this 16th ) 
day of December, 1895. y 

Elmer P. Spofford, 
[l. s.] Notary Public. 



State of Maine, . 

{ ss. 



Hancock County 



•:\ 



I, Herbert Bray, being duly sworn, depose and 
say, that I am twenty-four years of age and reside 
at Deer Isle in the State of Maine, and was one of 
the crew of the yacht Defender during the 
America's Cup races in September, 1895. During 
the first week in September the Defender went to 



478 



New Rochelle, where her cabin-fixtures, water- 
tank and ice-tank were taken out and about two 
tons of lead put in her hold. I helped to put said 
lead aboard. On September 6 the Defender was 
towed to Erie Basin, where I helped to put more 
lead on board the Defender. This last mentioned 
lead was placed on the cabin floor of the Defender, 
where it remained while the Defender was being- 
measured and until we reached Sandy Hook that 
night. I went to bed while the Defender was on 
her way to Sandy Hook and fell asleep before ar- 
riving there. I was awakened after reaching Sandy 
Hook by the noise made by the crew in cutting 
and stowing away the said lead taken on board at 
Erie Basin, as aforesaid, and I did not again go to 
sleep until the said noise ceased between nine and 
ten o'clock. After the race on September 7th, the 
Defender was towed to Bay Ridge, arriving there 
about half -past eight o'clock, and the men had 
their supper and transferred their bedding to the 
Defender, after which and at about half-past nine 
o'clock, the Hattie Palmer went away, and, as I 
verily believe, did not again come alongside before 
six o'clock the next morning. I was aboard the 
Defender or the Hattie Palmer at all times between 
the time when the Defender was measured on Sep- 
tember 6th and the time when she was re-measured 
on September 8th, and I do not know of any lead 
or other ballast of any nature or description hav- 
ing been put in or taken out of the Defender during 
such time or times, except the said lead taken on 
at Erie Basin, as aforesaid, which, as I am in- 
formed and believe, was taken out, passed to the 
deck of the Palmer, and there cut and passed back 
to the Defender on the evening of September 6th, 
and I verily believe that no other lead or ballast 
was put in or taken out of the Defender during 
such period. During the nights of September 6th 
and 7th I slept in the forecastle of the Defender. 



479 

I heard no noises such as would be made by put- 
ting in or taking out ballast except as aforesaid. 

(Signed) Herbert Bray. 

Sworn to before me this 14th 
day of December, 1895. 

Elmer P. Spoeeord, 
[l. s.] Notary Public. 

State oe Maine, ) 
Hancock County, ) 

I, Leslie Stinson, being duly sworn, depose 
and say, that I am twenty -three years of age and 
reside at Deer Isle, in the State of Maine, and was 
one of the crew of the yacht Defender during the 
races for the America's Cup in the month of Sep- 
tember, 1895. During the first week of Septem- 
ber the Defender went to New Rochelle, where her 
cabin fixtures, water-tank and ice-tank were taken 
out and about forty-two pigs of lead were placed 
in her hold. I passed some of this lead down into 
the hold. On September sixth the Defender was 
towed down to Erie Basin, where about twenty-one 
pigs of lead were taken on board the Defender and 
laid upon the cabin floor, where it remained while 
the Defender was being measured and until the 
Defender reached Sandy Hook that night. At 
Sandy Hook the Hattie Palmer came alongside the 
Defender. I went to bed shortly after we reached 
Sandy Hook, at about half -past eight o'clock. As 
I lay in the forecastle I could hear the crew at work 
on the deck and in the mess-room or sail-room 
transferring the lead which we had taken on board 
at Erie Basin, and which was lying on the cabin 
floor, as hereinbefore mentioned, when the Defender 
was measured, and passing lead down the hatches 
in the said sail-room into the hold. There was a 
doorway leading into the sail-room. The door had 
been taken off so that I could see from the fore- 



480 



castle into the sail-room. The crew in handling 
the lead as aforesaid made so much noise that I 
could not sleep. About ten o'clock the noise 
stopped. After the race on September 7, the De- 
fender was towed to Bay Ridge, where she arrived 
at about half -past eight o'clock in the evening, and 
the Hattie Palmer came alongside and the crew had 
their supper and put the bedding, etc., on board 
the Defender, after which, and at about half-past 
nine o'clock, the Hattie Palmer went into dock at 
Bay Ridge, and, as I believe, did not again come 
alongside until after six o'clock the. next morning. 
I was aboard the Defender or the Hattie Palmer at 
all times between the time when the Defender was 
measured on September 6th and the time when she 
was re-measured on September 8th, and I do not 
know of any lead or other ballast having been put 
in or taken out of the Defender during such time, 
except the said twenty-one pigs of lead so lying on 
the cabin floor as aforesaid when the Defender was 
measured, and I verily believe that no other lead or 
ballast was put in or taken out of the Defender 
except the said twenty-one pigs of lead, during 
such period between the measurement and re- 
measurement of the Defender hereinbefore men- 
tioned. 

(Signed) Leslie Stltstson. 

Sworn to before me this 13th 
day of December, 1895. 

[L. 8.] E. E. Spofford, 

Justice of the Peace. 



State of Maine, ) nn 
County of Hancock, ) 

I, Eben Haskell, having been duly sworn, do 
depose and say, that I am twenty-two years of age, 
and reside in Deer Isle, the State of Maine, 
and that I was one of the crew of the yacht 
Defender during the America's Cup races in 



481 



September, 1895. During the first week in Sep- 
tember the Defender went to New Pochelle, 
where her cabin fixtures, water-tank and ice-tank 
were taken out and about two tons of lead put into 
her hold. September 6th she was towed to Erie 
Basin, where about one ton more of lead was taken 
on board the Defender and placed upon her 
cabin floor, where it remained until after she was 
measured that day. Late that afternoon the De- 
fender and the Palmer were towed to Sandy Hook, 
arriving there at about half -past eight o'clock. 
The Hattie Palmer then came alongide. The said 
ton of lead which was lying on the cabin floor was 
then passed up through the Defender's hatch and 
across to the deck of the Hattie Palmer, where it 
was cut and then passed back to the deck of the 
Defender and down into her hold. I helped to 
pass the lead from the Defender's hatch across to 
the deck of the Hattie Palmer. I could see Cap- 
tain Haff and Charles Scott as they cut the pigs 
into two pieces. I could also see all that was going 
on on the decks of the Defender and the Hattie 
Palmer. This work was finished between nine and 
ten o'clock that night, and thereupon the Hattie 
Palmer left the Defender, and, as I verily believe, 
did not again come alongside before Hve o'clock 
the next morning. During th^ time that she lay 
thus alongside no other lead or ballast than the 
said ton so transferred from the Defender to the 
Palmer, and there cut and passed back to the deck 
of the Defender, as aforesaid, was transferred to 
the Defender, and I know that the said lead that 
was so passed over from the deck of the Hattie 
Palmer to the deck of the Defender was the same 
lead that was on the cabin floor of the Defender 
when she was measured on September 6th. I was 
on board the Defender or the Hattie Palmer all of 
the time between the time when she was measured 
on September 6th and the time when she was re- 
measured on September 7th, and I do not know 



482 



of any lead or other ballast of any nature or descrip- 
tion having been put into or taken out of the De- 
fender during such time, except the said one ton of 
lead so transferred from the Defender to the Palmer, 
and there cut, and passed back to the Defender, 
as hereinbefore mentioned, and I verily believe that 
no other lead or ballast was put into or taken out 
of the Defender during such time. After the race 
on September 7th, the Defender was towed to Bay 
Ridge and the Hattie Palmer came alongside, and 
the men had their supper and transferred their 
bedding to the Defender, after which, and at about 
half -past nine o'clock in the evening the Palmer 
left the Defender and, as I verily believe, did not 
again come alongside before six o'clock the next 
morning. During the nights of September 6th and 
7th I slept in the forecastle of the Defender, which 
opened into the sail-room, and I did not hear dur- 
ing either of those nights any noises such as would 
be made in iDutting in or taking out ballast. I 
have noticed that when the crew were forward and 
the bedding, &c. s was in the forecastle, the De- 
fender's bobstay bolt was about four inches nearer 
the water than when she was in racing trim. 

(Signed) Ebeist Haskell. 

Sworn to before me this 14th ) 
day of December, 1895. ) 

Elmer P. Spofford, 

[l. s.] Notary Public. 

The words " I did not stop until all of the lead 
had been cut and passed back to the Defender," 
were erased before signing. 

E. P. S., 
N. P. 

Mr. Choate : I also desire to put in some 
photographs that may help the Committee. 
They have been taken since she was laid up, 



483 



since her boom and spars and lead were out of 
her, and I would like to have Mr. Iselin, if he 
is here, explain the position of each. The 
chief point about them is that they show uni- 
formly the pipe — the water pipe — on the port 
side to be below the disk. 

Mr. AsJcwith : What do those purport to be? 

Mr. Choate : Mr. Iselin, will you explain 
what these photographs show of the boat, as 
you take them one by one from Mr. Askwith? 

Mr. Iselin : That is the interior of the boat 
looking aft (referring to photograph). 

Mr. Askwith : Were these taken before the 
races or after? 

Mr. Iselin: No, after she was laid up. 

Mr. Askwith : She is stripped for the Win- 
ter or going to be stripped? 

Mr. Iselin : Yes, she is stripped. 

Mr. Askwith : That is merely the interior? 

Mr. Iselin : Yes, looking from the after 
cabin. The photograph is marked No. 27. 

Mr. Choate : I will state that my informa- 
tion is that, of the other members of the crew 
not called, John P. Marshall was on board 
the Oakes, going from or steering for Deer Isle 
on the 23d of this month, he was not there 
when we sent down ; Elmer Hardy is on the 
schooner Dorothy, and arrived at Green's 
Landing after we had sent down to gather 
these statements ; Russ Fifield and William 
Horton are off on a fishing voyage at Yinal 
Haven; William C. Scott is on a voyage be- 
fore the mast; and, as I am informed, that 
completes the entire list of the crew. 

Further photographs were produced by Mr. 
Iselin, one of which was marked No. 29. 

Mr. Rims : What is that? 

Mr. Iselin : That is from the forecastle 
looking aft. The other one, 27, is from aft, 
looking toward the forecastle. 



484 



Mr. Whitney : Is she all open like this all 
through ? 

Mr. Iselin : Yes. 

Mr. Choate : The photograph that I now 
show you, and which Mr. Rives will please 
mark with the number 30, what is that, how 
taken ? 

Mr. Iselin : This is the port side. It was 
taken by a photographer at my orders. The 
Defender is lying at her winter quarters at 
New Rochelle, and this photograph is sup- 
posed to show the disk and the bilge pipe over 
on the port side. 

Mr. Choate : Is it obvious which is the disk 
and which is the bilge pipe? 

Mr. Iselin : It is to me. I do not at all 
vouch for these photographs being correct. I 
gave the order to the photographer to take 
them, and that is what he gave me. 

Mr. Choate : Here is a very neat looking one. 

Mr. Rives : What is the difference in color 
here? Does that dark part underneath repre- 
sent the bronze and the white the aluminum? 

Mr. Iselin : That is the bronze and the 
aluminum begins here; that straight line is 
the edge of the aluminum (indicating). 

Mr. Hives : Just a little above the top of 
the disk? 

Mr. Iselin : Yes. 

Mr. Rives: This is the disk here? (indicat- 
ing). 

Mr. Iselin : That is supposed to be the disk 
and that is the bilge pipe outside (indicating). 

Photograph marked No. 31. 

Mr. Choate : The one I have just handed you 
marked 31, what does that represent? 

Mr. Iselin : Represents the port side of the 
vessel. 

Mr. Choate: Showing the disk and bilge 
hole, or pipe? 



485 



Mr. Iselin: Yes. 

The Chairman: Do I understand that the 
testimony of all the crew has been offered, 
except those whom you account for as absent? 

Mr. Choate : Yes. (To Mr. Iselin). The 
one I now hand you, No. 32, what does that 
represent ? 

Mr. Iselin: That is supposed to represent 
the port side of the vessel ; but this was taken 
the first time the photographer went up to take 
the photographs. I told him to photograph the 
disk and the bilge pipe outside, and he said 
they would not show. So this photograph has 
been scratched to indicate the bilge pipe out- 
side and the disk. So I had him come up again 
and I said, the next time you come up you 
will have to do something so that they will 
show. So for the other photographs he pasted 
a white piece of paper over the disk and one 
over the bilge pipe outside, and therefore in 
these photographs they show white. 

Mr. Aslcwith: Who pasted the piece of 
paper — the photographer or carpenter? 

Mr. Iselin: The carpenter, to my knowledge, 
was not there. 

Mr. Aslcwith: The photographer? 

Mr. Iselin: I couldn't say. I gave directions. 

Mr. Aslcwith: Has the boat been painted 
since he scratched these marks? 

Mr. Iselin: The boat was never painted 
down below there. That was bronze and 
bright. 

Mr. Aslcwith: Why had he to scratch out 
where the disk had been and the pipe had been, 
so as to make them show? 

Mr. Iselin: Because now, the bronze being 
dark, they are about the same color and would 
not show. 

Mr. Aslcwith: The bronze got corroded. 

Mr. Iselin: Yes, very black now. 



486 



Mr. Rives: He scratched it on the vessel, or 
on the photograph, do you mean? 

Mr. Iselin: No; as I understand it, he 
scratched this on the photograph, so this photo- 
graph I should think would not establish any- 
thing at all. 

Mr. Askwith: Did he scratch for one? Did 
he put a piece of white paper? 

Mr. Iselin: Yes, sir ; he sent me that photo- 
graph with that scratched on, and I said that 
was of no use, and to come up again, and he 
did, and took the other photographs Sunday 
morning. 

Mr. Askwith: Is No. 30 the scratched one 
and No. 31 the paper one? 

Mr. Hives: No, the other way. 31 has got 
the paper pasted on and 32 has the scratches. 

Mr. Choate : Does the one I now show you, 
marked 33, show the deck of the boat? 

Mr. Iselin : It simply shows the deck of 
the boat as laid up in Winter quarters ; that 
is all. 

Mr. Hives : That is from the stern, looking 
forward ? 

Mr. Iselin : Yes. 

Mr. Choate : Now, there is only one more 
witness, whose statement we require, and that 
is Captain Taylor, of the Hattie Palmer. He 
was here two days, I believe, Friday and Satur- 
day, and was to have been here this morning. 
This morning we got a dispatch saying that he 
is sick in bed, but will be here this afternoon 
if the doctor will allow him to come. He has 
not arrived, and I suppose he is detained at 
home by illness. I do not like to ask to keep 
the Committee in session, but I do wish to get 
and put in his statement, and I would propose 
that we do that immediately. If he is ill, Mr. 
Bickford can go up there to-morrow and take 
it and hand it to Mr. Askwith, who, I believe, 



487 



is going to remain over during the week, if the 
Commission would prefer that mode of doing it. 

The Chairman : Yes ; we should receive it 
if you furnish it to us. 

Mr. Choate : I think he intended to be here. 
I don't know that he can add a single further 
fact, but we ought to offer him. 

The Chairman : You expect to offer him to 
the same general purpose as the witnesses ex- 
amined to-day? 

Mr. Choate : That he had nothing on the 
Hattie Palmer to put on and took nothing off. 

The Chairman : So that his evidence is only 
cumulative? 

Mr. Choate : That is all. And if the Com- 
mittee will allow that course, we will try to 
get his statement and hand it to Mr. Askwith 
at his hotel. 

Mr. Rives: If convenient to Mr. Askwith, 
he might accompany Mr. Bickford. 

Mr. Choate: Yes. If Captain Taylor is well 
he will be in town to-morrow, no doubt. 

Mr. Askwith : Who is the gentleman? 

Mr. Choate : The captain of the Hattie Pal- 
mer. There were but four persons on the 
Hattie Palmer, I believe. 

Mr. Askwith : I could go and hear whether 
there was any new matter brought out. I have 
been looking at these affidavits here, and I can 
only say the trouble of taking them might 
have been obviated if an investigation had been 
made on September 7th, but they add nothing 
to what has already been shown before this 
Commission, and I don't think there is any 
criticism that can be made upon them, except 
as far as the knowledge of these persons going 
to show that there was no ballast brought into 
this vessel. 

The Chairman: If Captain Taylor should 
be examined, Mr. Askwith, if you have any 



488 



observations to make upon his evidence after 
seeing it, you may put it in writing. 

Mr. AsJcwith : I don't know but that one of 
the stenographers might go down at the same 
time, if I am to attend to hear his examination 
taken viva voce, and take down any questions on 
cross-examination I might think fit toask him. 

The Chairman : That would be better, if 
you can do it. 

Mr. AsJcwith : May I get a little further ex- 
planation of these photographs, if they are to 
be put in, from Mr. Iselin? 

The Chairman : Certainly. 

Mr. AsJcwith : I understand these are just 
done at your order by a photographer sent 
down to New Rochelle? 

Mr. Iselin : Yes. 

Mr. AsJcwith : This one which is numbered 
33 appears to be only a general view of the 
Defender from the stern? 

Mr. Iselin : Yes. 

Mr. AsJcwith : This one (No. 28) would be 
a general view of the Defender, lying by the 
shore, starboard side showing? 

Mr. Iselin : Yes. 

Mr. AsJcwith : That does not show any pipe 
holes or marks? 

Mr. Iselin : It does not. 

Mr. AsJcwitJi : It is too small. That is the 
interior, is it not (No. 29)? 

Mr. Iselin: Yes. 

Mr. AsJcwitJi : Is 27 another of the interior? 

Mr. Iselin : Yes. 

Mr. AsJcwitJi : Here is a small one of the 
port side, No. 31, which is also too small to 
show the marks? 

Mr. Iselin : That does show them here (in- 
dicating). 

Mr. AsJcwith : It shows the pieces of paper 
that the man put on. 



489 



Mr. Iselin ; Yes. 

Mr. AsJcwith: And 32 shows the scratches? 

Mr. Iselin : Yes. 

Mr. AsJcwith : What is that one ; with the 
pieces of paper, I presume? 

Mr. Iselin : The starboard side. 

Mr. AsJcwith : Starboard side also, with 
pieces of paper? 

Mr. Iselin .• Yes. 

Mr. AsJcwith: And this is a general view of 
the Defender looking from the bows towards 
the stern? 

Mr. Iselin ; Yes. 

Mr. Hives: You say this is the starboard 
side (indicating Photograph No. 34)? 

Mr. Iselin : That is the starboard side. 

Mr. Rives : 35 is a view from the bow? 

Mr. Iselin : Yes. 

The Chairman : Mr. Iselin, where does this 
yacht now lie with reference to the railway 
station at New Rochelle? 

Mr. Iselin : It is about a mile and a half or 
three-quarters from the railway station. 

Mr. Whitney : Is there any nearer station 
than New Rochelle? 

Mr. Iselin : No ; that is the nearest. 

The Chairman : Is it in such a situation 
that the sides of the vessel can be seen? 

Mr. Iselin : Perfectly. 

Mr. Choate : Could there be an easy convey- 
ance from the depot to the boat? 

Mr. Iselin : Yes. 

Mr. Choate: There is another witness I will 
call just to account for the people on the 
Hattie Palmer. 

The Chairman : New Rochelle is about 
twenty minutes from New York? 

Mr. Iselin : It is forty-five minutes. 

Mr. Choate: If the Committee would like to 
visit the boat, we will facilitate their getting 
there with Mr. Ask with. 



490 



Beistjamiist Van Ness, called and interrogated 
by Mr. Choate : 

Q. Do yon live in New Rochelle ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Where do yon live? A. Mamaroneck. 

Q. Were yon a deckhand on the Hattie Palmer 
last Summer? A. I was firing and deckhand both. 

Q. Firing and deckhand? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Who else was there on board ; Captain Tay- 
lor? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And was there a steward? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And an engineer? A. An engineer. 

Q. And that was all? A. That was all. 

Q. The engineer was at his engine, I snppose? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And the steward mnst have been cooking 
most of the time. He cooked for all the crew, 
didn't he? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. The crew of the Defender? A. No, sir. 

Q. A separate cook ; who was that, a cook who 
came on from the Defender? A. No, sir. 

Q. Where is the engineer now, do yon know? 
A. No, sir ; I do not. 

Q. The steward, I believe, lives at New Rochelle? 
A. Yes, sir. He lives there. 

Q. Do yon remember where the Hattie Palmer 
went the night before the race, when she left the 
Defender down at the Horseshoe inside of Sandy 
Hook? A. I think she went over to the Highlands. 

Q. To the Hi ghlands ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What time did she leave to go to the High- 
lands? A. I couldn't say, but I think it was about 
half-past nine. 

Q. When did she come back in the morning? A. 
I think about half-past five or quarter to six she got 
alongside. 

Q. Do you remember when a little lot of lead 
was taken from the dock to the Hattie Palmer in 
the Erie Basin, and then from the Hattie Palmer to 
the Defender? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Did you help handle it? A. No, sir. 



491 



Q. Yon saw it done? A. I saw it. 
Q. Then, at night, down at Sandy Hook, Friday- 
evening, did yon see it brought from the Defender 
on to the deck of the Hattie Palmer and cut in two 
and carried back? A. Yes, sir, I saw some of it; 
not very much. 

Q. Now, with these exceptions, do you know of 
anything brought in or out of the Defender on to 
the Hattie Palmer or from the Hattie Palmer on to 
the Defender, except the men's cots and bags, etc.? 
A. That is all. 

Q. Where did she lay the night after the race, 
Saturday night, the Hattie Palmer? A. She went 
up to Bay Ridge. 

Q. Did she go to a dock there or wharf? A. No, 
she lay there by 42d Street. 

Q. Brooklyn? A. I believe so. 
Q. (By Mr. AsJcwith.) You were not present the 
whole time while the lead was being cut up? A. 
No, sir. 

Q. Are you absolutely certain that the Hattie 
Palmer left at half -past nine on Friday night? A. 
Whether it was exactly half -past nine, I couldn't 
say. 

Q. And you couldn't say what time she arrived 
in the morning exactly? A. Not exactly. 

Q. What is your position on board the Hattie 
Palmer? A. I was firing and on deck. 

Q. And there was a crew of three? A. That is 
all ; four of them with the Captain. 

Mr. AsJcwith : I have here, just arrived to- 
day from England, and I have seen it for the 
first time, two copies of the " Field," in which 
the pamphlet was originally published, which, 
if it is of service to the Committee, I would 
hand over to them. 

Mr. Hives : We have a copy of it here. 
Mr. AsTcioitJc : I might say that Lord Dun- 
raven is not at all responsible for the paragraph 
prior to the part headed " The America Cup." 



492 



Mr. Rives : Which page are you reading 
from? 

Mr. AsJcwitli : 772. 

The Chairman .* I think it is the same as we 
have. 

Mr. AsJcwith : Then with regard to a remark 
Mr. Rives made the other day referring to 
page 4 of the pamphlet, in which he dealt with 
the impression that Lord Dunraven was under 
with regard to the interpretation of the rule 
for marking, I may point out that in the rac- 
ing rules of 1894, which is the first one I have 
got, the part dealing with the definition of the 
load water line and what the measurer was to 
do, is placed in the by-laws. That in 1895 it 
is placed in the rules, and that between those 
dates a correspondence had gone on, to which 
allusion has been made, with constant requests 
for a proper marking of the load water line, 
including the letter of November 15th, 1894, 
dealing with the further rule in which the por- 
tion with regard to marking occurs, which let- 
ter states, " The Committee is unanimous in its 
favor and will recommend it to the Club." 

ISTow, of course, at the present moment I am 
not in a position to say what Lord Dunraven' s 
impression was, but if any point is to be made 
of the matter I should be ready to call a wit- 
ness here who would state that not only it was 
his own impression that the rule with regard 
to marking had been changed, but also that he 
gave Lord Dunraven to understand so. And 
so it stands with regard to Lord Dunraven' s 
impression. I mean I do not wish it to be 
stated — the words "false impression" to be 
used — with regard to what he put in the 
pamphlet at that place. 

Mr. Choate : I would like to ask if Mr. 
Kersey and Mr. Henderson are going to be 
called. 



493 



Mr. AsJcwith: I am not going to call any 
witnesses in this country myself. If the Com- 
mittee like to call them, those gentlemen are 
in this city, and they must take upon them- 
selves the responsibility of calling persons 
whose official work or whose livelihood is 
earned in this city. 

The Chairman : Do you desire to call any 
other witnesses, Mr. Askwith, before the en- 
quiry is closed? 

Mr. AsJcwith : Lord Dunraven has appeared 
here with certain witnesses, and has given 
such assistance as he is able to give, and as he 
has believed within the bounds of his duty to 
give the Commission. He has not appeared as 
prosecuting or examining with a view to a prose- 
cution. He has come here saying that the 
charge cannot be now proved or disproved, but 
ready to give such assistance to the Commis- 
sion as he can. I have here put down in writ- 
ing a short statement with regard to what he 
considers his position to be, which, with the 
permission of the Committee, I propose to 
read and put in. I have written it down, so 
that there shall be no question about it. 

Mr. Choate : It is your statement? 

Mr. AsJcwith : It is my statement on behalf 
of Lord Dunraven. 

" Lord Dunraven desires it to be expressly 
understood — 

" (1) That he has appeared before the Com- 
mission in no sense as a prosecutor, but only 
as a witness, to give such assistance as he 
might be now able to furnish at an enquiry in- 
stituted by the New York Yacht Club with re- 
spect to statements made by him which he 
wished to be considered by the Cup Committee 
on September 7th, but which he has always 
contended cannot now be properly examined 



494 



either for proof or disproof, the opportunity 
of investigation having been neglected. Any 
questions in cross-examination addressed by 
his counsel to witnesses have been asked solely 
for the assistance of the Commission, and for 
no other reason. 

' ' (2) That he voluntarily offered to appear 
before the Commission. 

' ' (3) That apart from the question of proof 
or disproof, his object was to prove that he 
had made a bona- fide complaint, following on 
(a) repeated requests for clear marking of the 
load water line of the contending yachts in the 
America's Cup races, in accordance with the 
plain meaning of Rule 4 of the Racing Rules 
of the 1ST. Y. Y. C, viz. : 

' ' i The measurer, at the time of taking his 
measurement, shall affix a distinctive mark at 
each end of L. W. L.,' 

the load water line length being defined as the 
distance in a straight line between the points 
furthest forward and furthest aft, where the 
hull, exclusive of the rudder-post, is intersected 
by the surface of the water when the yacht is 
afloat in racing trim with any person or per- 
sons who may be on board when the measure- 
ment is taken stationed amidships. 

' ■ (b) The fact that no distinctive mark had 
been affixed at each end of L. W. L. in the 
race of September 7th. 

"(e) The fact that on the evidence of his 
own investigation and the statements and in- 
vestigation of other persons known as ex- 
perienced and skilled yachtsmen, whose names 
he gave to Defender's representative on the 
Valkyrie, and whose names were reported to 
representatives of the Cup Committee, he 
firmly believed that the Defender was im- 
mersed deeper in the water in the race of Sept. 



495 



7th than when she was measured for the race 
on Sept. 6th. 

' ' (4) That he made a complaint at once to 
Mr. Fish, a member of the Cup Committee, 
Defender's representative on board the Val- 
kyrie, and that after speedy report of the com- 
plaint that the Defender was more deeply im- 
mersed at that very time, the Committee (to 
use their own words) ' decided upon a course 
of action which did not involve proving or dis- 
proving Lord Dunraven's implication of fraud. ' 

' c (5) That he has stated upon oath that he 
told Mr. Fish he wished the Committee to put 
one of their members or some reliable repre- 
sentative on board each of the yachts imme- 
diately after the race, and that they should be 
re-measured the same evening if possible, but 
that if that were impossible that the repre- 
sentatives of the Cup Committee should re- 
main on board the yachts until re-measurement 
took place. 

" (6) That no steps were taken by the Com- 
mittee for dealing with what they considered 
to be an ' implication of fraud ' except to order 
a re-measurement on the following day, about 
eighteen hours after the race. 

' ' (7) That he stated the facts and the com- 
plaint he had made in a letter dated Sept. 
24th and written before he left America to the 
Secretary of the R. Y. S. 

" (8) That acting upon instruction that no 
further mention was desired to be made in 
America, he had a cable forwarded to the Sec- 
retary of the R. Y. S. to omit in any publica- 
tion allusion to the load water line. 

' ' (9) That on Oct. 26th he first learned that 
the Cup Committee had made a report to the 



496 



N. Y. Y. C. and to the press in America, giv- 
ing an incomplete and inaccurate view of the 
facts. 

" (10) That he consequently published — 
thinking it due to the yachting and general 
public and to himself to make a short state- 
ment on the subject — a pamphlet or history of 
the races, of which about one-third related to 
the first race, wherein he only reiterated his 
former statements. 

" (11) That subsequent to the appointment of 
a Committee by the IN". Y. Y. C. on these state- 
ments, which he says can neither be proved 
or disproved at the present time, the oppor- 
tunity having been lost, he has voluntarily 
given all the assistance in his power to the 
Committee. 

' ' He also desires to call attention to the 
fact that Mr. Fish states that ' Lord Dunraven 
said at least twice that he believed the change 
in L. W. L. length had been effected without 
the knowledge of the owners,' and that he 
very much regretted and was very sorry to be 
obliged to make this charge." 

This statement I beg to offer for the Com- 
mittee's close consideration, in making the 
final report that they make upon this matter. 

The Chairman : Mr. Askwith, I observe 
that the statement that you have just read is 
to the effect that Lord Dunraven still believes 
in the truth of the charge that he made. 

Mr. AsJcwith : He stated so, I think, upon 
the stand here. 

TJie Chairman : Are we to understand that 
that statement refers to his belief at the time 
when he left this city, or that it is to be taken 
as a statement, through his counsel, of his be- 
lief in the truth of the statement, after the 
evidence that has been placed before us? 



497 



Mr. Aslcwith : I am not authorized by Lord 
Dunraven to express in his behalf, either 
belief or disbelief in evidence that has been 
placed before the Commission. He wishes the 
Commission to make their own report upon 
the evidence that has been given. 

The Chairman : That does not quite answer 
my question. It is, to what point of time we 
are to understand the statement that you have 
read refers, as being made to-day, after the 
evidence, or as having been made by him be- 
fore most of the evidence, or a large part of it 
had been taken? It is a mere question on my 
part in order to understand what Lord Dun- 
raven's position is. 

Mr. Aslcwith : You are referring really to 
the words ' ' Still believes ' ' ? 

The Chairman : Yes. 

Mr. Askwith: I do not think that I 
should be justified, without express direc- 
tions from Lord Dunraven, to say that he still 
believes a matter upon which, of course, he 
has only heard a portion of the evidence; 
and therefore if this statement stands word 
for word, as written here, it could in that par- 
ticular, as far as being binding upon him, only 
relate to mid-day upon Saturday. I think it 
may be better for me to cross out those four 
words so as to make this statement deal with 
his position on the whole of the inquiry. 

The Chairman : How will it read as you 
amend it? 

Mr. Aslcwith: ' ' The fact that on the evidence 
of his own investigation and the statements 
and investigation of other persons known as 
experienced and skilled yachtsmen, whose 
names he gave to Defender's representative on 
the Valkyrie, and whose names were reported 
to representatives of the Cup Committee, he 
firmly believed that the Defender was im- 



498 



mersed deeper in the water in the race of Sep- 
tember 7th than she was when measured for 
the race on September 6th," 

I will hand it in as dealing with his position 
now, as ending the evidence so far as it goes. 

Mr. Choate : We have done all that we can 
to aid the Committee in their investigation. 
The Committee understands, of course, that I 
do not represent the Cup Committee at all, and 
that they have been advised of the statement 
of the Committee, that it did not propose to 
investigate any charges or suggestions against 
them. 

The Chairman : Yes. 

Mr. Choate : Were the two places where the 
vessels were marked on the chart? 

Mr. Hives : They were marked by Lord 
Dunraven on a chart which I have. 

(Chart with the marks made by Lord Dun- 
raven as to the position of the yachts in the 
Horseshoe, was examined by Mr. Iselin.) 

Mr. Choate : Is that correct, according to 
your idea, Mr. Iselin? 

Mr. Iselin : Yes ; as near as I can judge. 

Mr. Choate : We have no changes to make, 
then, in that. 

Mr. Iselin : ~No ; I think not. 

Mr. Choate : We have assumed on both 
sides, from a suggestion that fell from one of 
the members of the Committee, that they do 
not desire or expect any summing up. 

The Chairman : No ; we do not desire any 
summing up, but if the gentlemen will remain 
a moment, we were considering a point that 
we may wish to say something about. 

The point upon which the Committee de- 
sired to say a word before separating to-night 
is this : In the memorandum taken by Mr. 
Fish of the charge first made by Lord Dun- 
raven, three witnesses are referred to by Lord 



499 



Dunraven, as likely to sustain his view in re- 
spect to the condition of this vessel at the time 
of the race — Mr. Kersey, the Captain of the 
steamboat Bridgeport, and the pilot. The 
Committee thought best, after what was said 
yesterday, to make some effort to obtain the 
attendance of the Captain of the Bridgeport 
and the pilot, in order that it should not be 
said hereafter that any source of evidence 
bearing upon the question that they have to 
decide had been neglected. We are informed 
that the pilot of the Bridgeport is at sea. 

Mr. Rives : The pilot of the Valkyrie. 

The Chairman : I beg pardon ; the pilot of 
the Yalkyrie ; and the Captain of the Bridge- 
port is unable to attend. It appears from the 
evidence before us that Mr. Kersey has been 
the friend and the representative of Lord Dun- 
raven in this matter. We will adjourn until 
ten o'clock to-morrow morning. If Mr. Ask- 
with obtains the attendance of Mr. Kersey, we 
shall be very happy to hear his evidence. If 
not, the Committee does not feel called upon 
to make any further efforts to bring before 
them a witness standing in that relation, inas- 
much, as has been before remarked, we have 
no power to issue a subpoena, but only to 
solicit or invite the attendance of witnesses. 
Therefore, if Mr. Askwith desires that the 
testimony of Mr. Kersey should be heard and 
will bring him to-morrow morning, we will 
hear him with pleasure. Otherwise, we shall 
regard the enquiry as closed, so far as evidence 
is concerned. 

Mr. Choate : As the Committee is to come 
together at ten o'clock to-morrow morning, 
and that is the earliest time we can get 
the Captain of the Hattie Palmer, may we 
bring him here for examination, if he is well 
enough ? 



500 



The Chair man : Yes ; of course if you bring 
Captain Taylor here we will hear him. 

Hearing adjourned to Tuesday, December 
31st, 1895, at ten a.m. 



501 



New York Yacht Club, 
67 Madison Ave., Dec. 31st, 1895. 

The Chairman : Mr. Ask with, do you ex- 
pect Mr. Kersey here ? 

Mr. As Jc with : No, sir. I conveyed to him 
the suggestion of the Committee that he should 
be present to-day, and he asked me to say 
that, having had that intimation communicated 
to him, he replies to me that, were he at liberty 
and consulting alone his own wishes or the de- 
sire of the Committee, he would be glad to 
submit himself to any examination the Com- 
mittee might wish ; but there are others who 
have a right to control his action in this 
respect, and that they have objected most 
earnestly to his appearing, and that he some 
time since intimated to Lord Bunraven that 
he must defer to their opinion. Mr. Kersey 
states that, with regard to Mr. Fish's state- 
ment, he was not present during the conversa- 
tion between Mr. Fish and Lord Dunraven ; 
that he did not know that the document pro- 
duced by Mr. Fish existed, nor that his name 
appeared thereon. I can, therefore, do noth- 
ing further in the matter. 

The Chairman : Is there any other witness 
you desire to call this morning? 

Mr. AsJcwith : I have laid before the Com- 
mittee such witnesses as we are able to pro- 
cure. 

The Chairman : Have you any witnesses, 
Mr. Choate? 

Mr. Choate ; We will call Captain Taylor, 
who was ill yesterday, but is now here. 



502 



Captain H. W. Taylor, called and interro- 
gated : 

By Mr. Choate : 

Q. Captain Taylor, you were quite ill yesterday? 
A. Yes, sir ; I ought to be in bed now. 

Q. We will excuse you very soon. Have you 
brought with you the log — You were the captain of 
the Hattie Palmer? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Have you brought with you her log of last 
September? A. No, sir, I have not. 

Q. Where is it? A. I have got it home. 

Q. Were not you requested to bring it? A. 
Well, now, gentlemen, I will tell you. I wrote 
that for my own benefit and I wrote it for the pur- 
pose of publishing a book. That is what I have 
kept it for. I wanted to publish a book and I 
have kept them different things in my own time, 
and that is the reason why I don't think that what 
I have got there I want to go into the papers until 
I get ready to publish it myself. That is the reason 
why I didn't bring it. 

Q. We shall have the benefit of them when you 
publish it? A. Yes, sir; you can have it. That 
is all I kept it for, for my own benefit, thinking I 
might make a little money off it, and 1 have tried 
to make money where I can where it is honest, and 
that Is the reason I kept it. 

Q. Are you the owner of the Hattie Palmer or 
have you any interest in her? A. No, sir; paid by 
the month ; that is all. 

Q. How long did you run her? A. Ever since 
she was made a steamboat, and three or four years 
ago when she was a schooner. 

Q. A schooner converted into a steamboat? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. What is she used for generally? A. Carry- 
ing freight ; any kind of freight such as mer- 
chandise; we run from New Eochelle to New 
York. 



503 



Q. Do you live at New Rochelle? A. No, sir; 
I live at Portchester. 

Q. Do you make regular passages from New 
York to New Rochelle? A. Yes, sir; three times 
a week, and in the Summer four times. 

Q. Was she hired last Summer by the owners of 
the Defender, or by Mr. Iselin? A. Yes, sir; I 
think she was. 

Q. For what period? A. Well, I think it was 
89 days. 

Q. Then it was pretty much all Summer? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. And she acted as tender to the Defender? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. During all the races ; the trial races as well 
as the Cup races? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And you went along? A. I was there, yes, 
sir ; every day. 

Q. Were you with the Hattie Palmer up at New 
Rochelle on the 4th and 5th of September ; that is 
during the week of the Cup races, on Wednesday 
and Thursday? A. Yes, sir; I was there. 

Q. And was the Hattie Palmer lying up there? 
A. We were running back and forth all the 
while. 

Q. You made your passages to New York? 
A. Oh, no ; we were running back and forth from 
the boat in shore. 

Q. The Defender lay off a little way and you 
went to and fro? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Then did you bring off in the Hattie Palmer 
what was taken out of the Defender up there? 
A. We carried everything there was went to the 
Defender I believe. 

Q. Do you remember what was taken out of her ; 
cabin furniture, tanks? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Ice box and so on? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You took them in the Hattie Palmer from 
the Defender to the shore? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Did you see them weighed there? A. I saw 



504 



part of them weighed ; I guess they weighed part 
of them downstairs. 

Q. Did you have anything to do with carrying 
some lead from shore to the Defender up there at 
New Rochelle? A. I didn't have no part; I took 
it out there. It went out on the boat. 

Q. Well, I mean that? A. I didn't handle it. 

Q. And that was the 4th — Do you remember 
what day that was? A. No, sir; I couldn't tell 
you. I have got it set down home. 

Q. It was a day or two before you came down 
to Erie Basin? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Have you got these things set down anywhere 
but in your log? A. No, sir. 

Q. Was anything put into the Defender up there 
except the lot of lead that you had carried from 
the Hattie Palmer to her? A. No, sir; not that I 
know of. 

Q. Was anything taken out of her there except 
the cabin furniture, the tank, the ice box and the 
stuff taken out of the bilge? A. Oh, all the wood 
work. 

Q. I mean that ; the trimmings of the cabin? A. 
That is all that I know of. 

Q. When did you receive word to start for New 
York with the Defender? A. I couldn't tell you. 

Q. You came down on Friday morning, didn't 
you? A. I think it was; yes, sir. 

Q. Did you go with the Defender, or in advance 
of her, and go to the Erie Basin? A. I don't know ; 
I think we came ahead of her, but I don't know. 
We might have towed her that trip, but I think we 
went ahead of her. 

Q. And went to the Erie Basin? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. By direction of Mr. Iselin? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And when you got to the Erie Basin it was 
towards noon on Friday, or in the middle of the 
forenoon? A. I think it was about noon; I don't 
know certain. 

Q. Does your head ache now? A. Yes, sir. 



505 

Q. And the Defender came to the Erie Basin? 
A. Yes, sir ; she came there. 

Q. Were yon there when she was measured that 
day? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Before she was measured, did the Hattie 
Palmer take some lead on board of her? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Do you remember the number of pigs? A. 
No, sir; I can't tell now. 

Q. Do you remember about how many? A. I 
think it was about a ton ; it might have been a little 
over a ton. 

Q. You are familiar with these pigs; do you 
know about how much they weigh apiece? A. 
Well, they would average about 89 pounds, I sup- 
pose. 

Q. They averaged a little over 100, I believe ; 98 
pounds? A. 98, or something like that; I don't 
know. 

Q. Was anything else but the lead carried on to 
the Defender by the Hattie Palmer in the Erie 
Basin? A. No, sir; not that I know of . 

Q. You would have known it if there had been? 
A. I should have been pretty apt to. 

Q. You were on your boat all the time ? A. Yes, 
sir ; I never lost but one day. 

Q. That was not one of these days? A. No, 
sir ; that was the day of the last race. 

Q. The day of the last race? A. Yes, sir; I 
went out to see the last race. I didn't see any. 

Q. You didn't lose any day that week that you 
came down from New Rochelle to the Erie Basin? 
A. No, sir ; never lost a minute. I was there night 
and day all the while. 

Q. I wish now, although you haven't got your 
log, that you would see if you cannot give exactly 
the movements of the Hattie Palmer from that time 
until Sunday afternoon? A. Well, if that is going 
to be published in the paper I don't think I ought 
to tell that. If it is going to be published in the 
paper I don't want to injure myself. 



506 



Q. It lias been told several times? A. I know, 
bnt that is not my telling it. 

Q. The Committee is entitled to have it from 
you? A. I know I have done everything for the 
Committee. I have been told to keep my mouth 
shut and I have kept it shut. I have been offered 
$75 from the newspapers to publish it long ago and 
I wouldn't do it because I was told to keep my 
mouth shut. I have done everything for the Com- 
mittee. 

Q. I was referring to this Committee? A. Yes, 
it is the one I mean. I was told to keep my mouth 
shut and I have done it. They told me not to say 
anything. I have had outside parties come to me 
to keep still and I have done it. Every newspaper 
reporter in New York City knows me; they meet 
me every day and ask me to give that story. I 
have been offered $75 from men all you gentlemen 
know for three days, and I wouldn't give it to them. 

Q. Who offered you $75? A. I don't care to 
state, but some of these newspapers here, and if 
they are going to publish this stuff I don't think I 
ought to. 

Q. Perhaps we will get along better if I put a 
few leading questions? A. I am willing to do 
anything but I don't care to 

Q. How long did the Hattie Palmer remain in 
the Erie Basin on Friday? A. I couldn't say as to 
that. I don't know whether we went after coal or 
anything else; we might have went after coal and 
might not have been there an hour. 

Q. You didn't see anything put on the De- 
fender except about a ton of lead? A. I know 
there wasn't anything put on her. 

Q. Bid you see anything taken out of her before 
she was measured? A. Nothing only what was 
taken out the other time, bedding, cots and bags, 
with the men's clothes. 

Q. Well, now, after she was measured those 
things were put back, were they not? A. Yes, sir. 



507 



Q. Was anything else put in her that you 
know of ? A. No, sir; there was nothing in the 
boat. 

Q. Now, do you remember that the Defender 
left the Erie Basin in tow that afternoon and went 
to Bay Ridge? A. I don't know as — she went in 
tow I guess, but I don't know who towed her. 

Q. She went somewhere. Do you remember 
that the Hattie Palmer was sent to the mainland 
somewhere, or somewhere on Long Island — Bay 
Ridge — to land a mainsail? A. Yes, sir, we landed 
a mainsail. 

Q. When you landed the mainsail did you take 
in anything? A. No, sir. 

Q. And then did you come back to Bay Ridge 
and join the Defender there? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And lay alongside of her a little while? A. 
Yes, sir; long enough for the men to eat their 
supper — no, I don't think we laid there 10 
minutes. 

Q. The crew of the Defender had been on the 
Hattie Palmer on your trip to land the mainsail 
and got their supper? A. Yes, sir, I think they 
got through ; I think they ate when we were ashore. 

Q. You mean on the trip to the dock and back 
with the mainsail they had their supper? A. Yes, 
sir. 

Q. Now do you remember going down from Bay 
Ridge to the Horseshoe that night? A. Yes, sir, 
I remember going down there. 

Q. Now state what happened when you got there. 
You lay alongside the Defender how long? I am 
not trying to get out any secrets. A. There isn't 
any secrets to get out. I guess everybody has 
told it before me. 

Q. What happened when you were lying along- 
side? A. Oh, I don't know as anything happened 
to amount to anything. We laid there, I think, 
maybe two hours or two hours and a half ; maybe 
not as long as that. 



508 



Q. Do you remember this ton of lead being 
brought on to the Hattie Palmer and cut up? A. 
I know something about it, yes. 

Q. Tell what you know about it? A. The only 
thing to tell about it is it was brought there 
and cut up. You said it was brought there and 
cut up. 

Q. Then what was done with it? A. They took 
it back again, as far as I know. 

Q. And all that they brought off the Defender 
they took back? A. That is all; yes, sir. 

Q. Took it back sawed or cut in half? A. Yes, 
sir; they didn't have any other, so they couldn't 
bring any more. 

Q. And there was nothing taken from the Hattie 
Palmer into the Defender while you lay alongside 
there except that lead that was brought off, cut up 
and carried back? A. No, sir. 

Q. Where did you go with the Hattie Palmer 
when you left after being alongside the Defender a 
couple of hours ? Is this the secret? A. I don't 
know as there is any secret in any of it. 

Q. Where did you go? A. Went to Atlantic 
Highlands. 

Q. Went into a dock or slip there? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. {By Mr. Whitney.) How far away was that 
from the Defender? A. Well, it might be three 
miles or three miles and a half. 

Q. {By Mr. Choate.) It was to get shelter for 
the night? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. That is what you went for, I suppose? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. And did you make fast to a slip there or 
anchor, or what? A. Made fast to the dock — New 
York Yacht Club dock. 

Q. And how long did you remain there? Until 
what hour in the morning? A. We left there at 
half -past four in the morning. 

Q. And how long did it take you to get over 
again from there to the Defender? A. Oh, I 



509 



suppose about three-quarters of an hour — half to 
three-quarters of an hour. 

Q. Bringing you there somewhere between five 
and half -past? A. No; it was not half -past five, I 
don't believe. 

Q. Did you lay to off the Defender or immedi- 
ately make fast to her? A. I don't know. 

Q. You don't remember? A. I guess we went 
right alongside of her ; always did. 

Q. While you were there do you remember early 
in the morning two men coming and rowing around 
the Defender in a boat? A. No, sir. 

Q. Do you know a Mr. Gflennie who has been 
talked of and who was here? A. I have seen him. 

Q. Did you see him that morning? A. No, sir, 
not that I know of. 

Q. When you left the Defender the night before 
were the riggers still at work upon her? A. I 
think they was ; yes, sir. 

Q. Had they got through their work when you 
joined her again in the morning? A. No, sir; I 
don't believe they had. 

Q. Do you remember about that? A. I know 
they hadn't finished it. 

Q. You know they hadn't left the boat, be- 
cause they went home in your boat, didn't they? 

A. That is the reason why I know they wasn't 
finished, for after they got through I took one of 
them home. 

Q. You took one or more of them off before the 
Defender started. Now how long did you lay by 
the side of the Defender that morning? A. Not 
over an hour and a half or two hours. 

Q. On which side of the Defender, if you can 
remember, did you make fast; port or starboard? 
A. I was on the starboard side of the Defender — on 
the port side of the Defender. 

Q. You were on the port side of the Defender? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Did you see the Valkyrie? A. Yes, sir. 



510 



Q. Where was she ; how far away and in what 
direction? A. I don't know; I don't suppose she 
was over one half a mile. 

Q. Was she anything like a half a mile away? 
A. I don't know as she was, but I think she was ; 
yes, sir. 

Q. Did you see the City of Bridgeport? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. Where was she? A. She was as far over the 
other way. 

Q. In an opposite direction, do you mean? A. 
Well, they were both on angles from us and was 
not lying alongside of each other. 

Q. Yes, but about as far off? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What happened while the Hattie Palmer 
and Defender were together that morning? A. 
Nothing. 

Q. You took off the men's cots and bags and 
clothes, didn't you? A. Yes, sir; the same as I 
always did. 

Q. And the men came on board the Hattie Palmer 
and got their breakfast, didn't they? A. Yes, sir; 
they had no other place to eat, they had to come. 

Q. Did you bring anything from where you 
spent the night to the Defender ; put anything on 
board of her? A. Did I bring anything? 

Q. Yes ; anything of any sort? A. Well, I guess 
not. 

Q. Didn't you bring a can of water? A. No, I 
don't think so. 

Q. Nothing went from the Hattie Palmer to the 
Defender that morning that you know of? A. We 
couldn't get any water down there. 

Q. You were on deck that morning, weren't 
you, and saw all that went on? A. I had to be; I 
was the only one that could run the boat and had 
to be there every morning. 

Q. What kind of weather was it there that 
morning, rough or smooth? A. Well, it was 
smooth in back of the Horseshoe where we was. 



511 



Q. As compared with outside. Do you remem- 
ber what the actual condition of the water was ? 
A. There was no sea on to amount to anything. 
There was just a little roll. The wind was north- 
east, I believe, and no sea to amount to anything. 

Q. Did you see Mr. Iselin and his friends come 
aboard the Defender that morning, or had you al- 
ready left before that? A. No, I didn't leave be- 
fore they came. I don't remember. I saw him 
every morning. I don't know when they came, or 
anything like that. 

Q. Do you remember when you left the De- 
fender that morning, did you go back to Bay 
Ridge? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What time did you leave the Defender to go 
to Bay Ridge? A. Oh, I don't know about half- 
past 7 or 8 o'clock. 

Q. And got up to Bay Ridge and waited for the 
Defender to return at night? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Now up to this time that we have brought 
you to, when you left the Defender to go to Bay 
Ridge Saturday morning, had anything, to your 
knowledge, gone on board the Defender since the 
measuring on Friday, except the clothes and bags 
and cots of the men? A. No, sir ; not that I know of. 

Q. Did you stay at Bay Ridge with the Hattie 
Palmer until the Defender returned at night? A. 
I was around down at some place all day. 

Q. I mean did the Hattie Palmer? A. Yes, sir, 
she was around there. 

Q. What time did the Defender come up that 
Saturday night? A. I don't know exactly. I have 
got it set down somewhere on my book at home. 
Somewhere about half -past seven or eight o'clock. 

Q. She came up and you went alongside with 
the Hattie Palmer, didn't you? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You had to go to put back the men's things? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And did the men come and get their supper 
on the Hattie Palmer? A. Yes, sir. 



512 



Q. How long did the two boats lay together 
there? A. I don't know; it wasn't a great while. 

Q. Well, about how long ; long enough to trans- 
fer these things and get the men's supper? That 
would take an hour or two, wouldn't it? A. It 
wouldn't take over two hours. 

Q. Then where did you go with the Hattie 
Palmer? A. That is what I am trying to find out; 
that is what everybody is. If they buy my book 
when I get it published they will want to know 
these things, and if I tell everything I know now 
and it is going to be published in the papers, my 
book won't be worth anything. 

Q. We will all take copies? A. That is all right, 
but that don't suit me. That is one of the things 
I have been offered $75 for. 

Q. Did you leave the Defender that night, 
Saturday night? A. That is the part I want to find 
out if it is going to be published in the newspapers. 
If it is, my book ain't going to be no good. 

Q. Well, I think you will promote the sale of 
your book? A. I don't see where. I think I am 
injuring myself all the while as long as I keep an- 
swering questions, just these things the men have 
offered to pay me for. 

Q. I only want to ask you three or four more? 
A. That is all right, but that three or four more will 
take all there is in the book. I don't think there 
is anything right in that. 

Q. Well, you did leave the Defender that night, 
or she left you? A. I don't know. 

Q. Can't you tell whether you stayed by her? A. 
I have asked you gentlemen, and if you will tell me 
whether it is going to be published in the news- 
papers or not, and if it is not, I am willing to tell you 
anything ; but if it is going to be published in the 
newspapers you can have the log book for the same 
they offered me for it. You can have the whole 
business then. I will swear to anything then ; take 
it before a Notary Public and swear that every word 



513 



of this is true, but I don't think I ought to throw 
everything I have got away now. 

Q. You have helped us very nearly through, and 
I think you can go a step farther? A. I know, but 
that one or two questions is time I ought to stop. 

Q. What was it you took out of the Defender 
that night up at Bay Ridge? A. I have asked you 
gentlemen a question and I want you to answer it 
first. 

Q. Did you take anything out of the Defender? 
A. When you answer my question then I am will- 
ing to talk, just as I tell you. 

Q. I have not the control of it at all? A. I don't 
know. 1 have asked the gentlemen here. I don't 
know who is boss. That is just what I am trying 
to find out. I haven't been used anyways at all 
right, no part of it so far, and whoever has got con- 
trol of it, them is the gentlemen I want to talk to. 
I come here as a man. The lirst man that come to 
me, he was going to serve a subpoena on me and 
force me to tell, and bring the papers and all that. 
The man that brought the letter from Mr. Rives 
last night — I don't know who Mr. Rives is — but the 
man that fetched it there as much as told me they 
was going to send a detective and subpoena after 
me to-day. That is all right; I didn't get scared, 
but I have been trying to accommodate the New 
York Yacht Club, and I have been trying to help 
the Committee, but I was told not to say nothing 
and I have done it. Mr. Iselin wrote and asked 
and advised for me to keep my mouth shut and 
not say nothing, and I have done just what he asked. 
He said to me not to talk or say anything to any- 
body and I didn't do it. Then the first thing the 
man come to me and was going to serve a subpoena 
on me and force me to talk and tell the whole thing 
on Pike Street dock, and I wouldn't do it. He was 
going to serve a subpoena on me. I don't think it 
right. 

Q. Do you still run the Hattie Palmer? A. I do 



514 



when I am well. I didn't run her for the last three 
or four days. 

Q. {By the Chairman.) Captain Taylor, the 
question Mr. Choate put to you has been answered 
here in the last two or three days by a good many 
witnesses? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. All that we are concerned to know is, whether 
on that Saturday night you took out of the Hattie 
Palmer, or knew of anybody taking out, any con- 
siderable quantity of ballast of any kind ; out of 
the Defender, I mean? A. That is what I say. 
They can publish everybody's else testimony as 
much as they are a mind to, if they don't publish 
mine. 

Q. Are you willing to answer that? A. If they 
will guarantee me they don't publish it, I will 
answer it. 

Q. Nobody can guarantee you that? A. Be- 
cause I think I ought to have the benefit of the 
doubt as well as anybody else. 

The Chairman : I don't think it is very material, 
Mr. Choate. We cannot compel the witness to 
answer. We have no authority. 

Q. {By Mr. Choate.) Now, I don't care about the 
particulars of your movements, but were you pres- 
ent when the Defender was measured on Sunday? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. From the time she was measured on Friday 
to the time she was measured on Sunday, do you 
know of anything being put into her or taken out 
of her except the men's cots and clothes and bags? 
A. That is the same question over again, isn't it? 

Q. You decline to answer one way or the other, 
do you? A. Ask me any other question, and I am 
willing to answer anything that won't injure me 
any. 

Q. How can that injure you? A. I have told 
you the only way it can injure me any. 

Mr. Choate: I don't think I will trouble the 
witness any further. 



515 



Q. {By Mr. AsTcwith.) Your book will be very 
interesting? A. I hope so. 

Q. Will you send Lord Dunraven a copy? A. 
I don't know. It is going to be for sale ; not going 
to give it away. I think he will be one of the first 
ones to buy one though. 

Q. How long ago were you told to keep your 
mouth shut? A. Oh, a long while ago. 

Q. Were you present at the first measurement of 
the Defender on Friday? A. I was to all of them. 

Q. Where were you; on board your boat? A. 
I was on the Defender the first time she was 
measured. 

Q. Were you sailing in her on the race? A. 
No, sir. 

Q. How came you to be on board the Defender 
when she was measured the first time? A. I don't 
know. I took somebody else's place that was not 
there. 

Q. You don't remember what time you landed the 
lead you took on board, the two tons of lead, at 
New Rochelle? A. No, sir, I don't remember 
exactly what time it was. 

Q. Do you remember what day? A. No, sir; 
I could tell you if I was home, though. 

Q. Have you got all these items down in your 
log? A. I think so. 

Q. And you are going to found a history on your 
log ? A.I am going to try to if I have sense enough . 
I don't know whether I will have sense enough. 

Q. When you stripped the Defender at New 
Rochelle do you remember what pumps were left 
inside of her? A. I don't know how many pumps 
she had onto her. 

Q. Did you see any pumps? A. Any pumps? 

Q. Yes? A. I don't know; I never went down 
and examined the Defender inside. 

Q. Did you ever go down inside the Defender? 
A. I have been in her lots of times and been all 
through her. 



516 



Q. When she was stripped can you tell me 
whereabouts the flooring of the Defender came? 
A. Where the flooring comes? 

Q. Yes? A. No, I couldn't tell you that. 

Q. On that model can you tell me how deep 
down you could see? A. I couldn't tell you 
nothing about it. It was not very deep down. 
There was lots of good head room ; that is about 
all. I couldn't tell on that exactly where it 
was. 

Q. You haven't seen any of the working plans 
of the Defender? A. Any of the what? 

Q. Working plans? A. I don't know; I have 
seen pretty nearly everything belongs on her. 

Q. Have you seen her building plans? A. I 
think I did, yes, sir. 

Q. Where? A. I don't think I have got to 
answer that question. 

Q. When did you see it? A. I don't think — I 
couldn't tell you what day it was, but I don't 
think I ought to answer that question, though. 

Q. What months? A. I don't know; I wouldn't 
say. I don't think that's any of my business to 
say that. 

Q. Did you see them at Bristol? A. I don't 
care to answer that. 

Q. Have you ever been to Bristol? A. Yes, sir; 
been there lots of times. 

Q. Have you seen the specifications for the 
material of the Defender? A. What do you mean ; 
the price, what they cost? 

Q. Yes, builder's specifications? A. No, sir, I 
guess not. 

Q. You have not? A. I guess I didn't get as 
far as that. 

Mr. Aslcwitli: I don't think I need ask this 
witness any further questions. 

Q. {By Mr. Rives.) Do you mind telling the 
Committee the size of the Hattie Palmer and her 
build; what kind of a boat she is? A. Well, she 



517 



was built as a schooner. I think she is 76 foot 
and a half long; she is 19 foot 8 inches wide. 

Q. Has she more than one deck? A. She has 
got a freight house on her now with a house onto 
it, and a main deck. She was a regular coasting 
schooner. 

Q. Do you think 8 or 9 tons of lead, or any 
other kind of ballast, could be put on her deck 
without your knowing it? A. Well, not very 
handy; no, sir. 

The Chairman : Will you stay here a little 
while. Captain Taylor? 

Captain Taylor: Yes, sir; I am willing to 
stay as long as I can stand up. 

Mr. Choate : The witness evidently does not 
feel very well, and I think perhaps if one of the 
members of the Committee were to talk with 
him he would see how unreasonable it is for him 
not to answer questions. Meantime I will ask 
Captain Half a question or two. {To Captain 
Taylor.) When did you write up the log? 
Captain Taylor : I wrote it every day. 
Mr. Choate : Kept it regularly ? 
Captain Taylor : Yes, sir. 

Captain Heney C. Haff, recalled and further 
interrogated. 

By Mr. Choate: 

Q. I want to know where the Yalkyrie lay that 
night, Saturday night? A. After the race? 

Q. Yes? A. She lay at Bay Ridge. 

Q. How far from where you were? A. I should 
judge probably a good long quarter of a mile to the 
south of us. 

Q. You were also at Bay Ridge, off the shore 
there? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What time did you get up there with the 
Defender and anchor? A. To the best of my 
knowledge and belief about half-past 8 o'clock. 



518 



Q. Was it then quite dark ? A. Yes, sir, dark when 
we came in by Sandy Hook; lights were all 
lighted. 

Q. Had the Valkyrie already arrived and 
anchored, or did she come afterwards? A. She 
came afterwards? 

Q. Did you see her come up? A. I saw the 
lights down there and the boys talked about the 
Yalkyrie being there. 

Q. You saw the next morning that she was 
there? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How long was it after you had anchored before 
she came? A. I wouldn't pretend to say; I should 
say probably somewhere from 15 minutes to half an 
hour. I wouldn't say positively. 

Q. That was about an hour and a half or two 
hours after sunset ; an hour and a half after sunset 
you arrived? A. We arrived, I should judge, about 
two hours after. I think the sun set about half- 
past 6. 

Q. You know all about the measuring. Would 
it have been practicable in the darkness that night 
to measure either of those yachts? A. Npt to get 
any satisfactory measurement ; no, sir. 

Q. I mean to measure as they are measured for 
racing purposes? A. No. 

Q. Where did the Hattie Palmer go that night? 
A.. She left there between half -past 9 and 10 o'clock, 
and I didn't see where she went, they told me she 
went to the foot of Twenty-sixth Street, Brooklyn, 
where she was in the habit of lying, and where she 
got coal and water. 

Q. And, as Captain Taylor has stated, she laid 
by you an hour and a half or two hours, the usual 
time for putting on the men's traps and getting 
supper? A. Not over an hour and a half; I think 
a short hour and a half. 

Q. Where were you during that hour and a half? 
A. I was on the Defender's deck most of the time, 
and getting supper on the Palmer part of the time. 



519 



Q. Did anything except the men's traps come 
from the Hattie Palmer to the Defender during that 
time? A. That is all. 

Q. Did anything come out of the Defender onto 
the Hattie Palmer except the lead that went back? 
A. No, sir; nothing at all. 

Q. Do you remember on Friday Mr. Hyslop, the 
measurer, giving you any directions? A. Not on 
Friday. 

Q. Friday afternoon? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. After the measuring? A. Yes, sir; I do. 

Q. Where were you and Mr. Hyslop then? A. 
I was on the Defender's deck and he was in a small 
boat alongside. 

Q. Did he come in a boat to the side of the De- 
fender and make a communication to you? A. 
Yes, sir ; the batten was on her deck. 

Q. Tell us what he said? A. Some one was in 
the boat with him and rowed him up alongside, 
and the batten, I think, had been passed out on 
deck after measuring, and Mr. Hyslop asked me if 
I wouldn't have that batten put away up in the 
carpenter's shop somewhere. I told him I would. 
He went away and I had the men take the batten 
ashore. He was away a little while, and returned 
again, and asked me what I had done with the 
batten, and I told him I had it sent up, and he 
said, " I am going to send ashore to have it so that 
we can get it out Sunday morning, if we want it." 

Q. And I suppose the gentlemen of the Com- 
mittee know exactly what this batten is. What is 
it? A. It is a batten they use to lay on the water 
to measure the overhang, to get the load water 
line. 

Q. Now, what did you do with it? A. I sent it 
ashore. He asked me to have it so that he could 
get it Sunday morning. We were about to cast 
off and let go, and in the hurry I didn't send the 
man ashore to give orders, but I saw some one on 
the dock ; my son, Harry, I think, was there, and 



520 



I hollered, and asked him to ask Mr. Dickey if the 
carpenter's shop would be open so that we could 
get that batten if we wanted it in the morning. 

Q. Where is that shop? A. Up in Robinson's 
dock, Erie Basin. 

Q. Did he name an hour on Sunday morning 
when it would be wanted? A. I don't remember 
that he did ; I wouldn't be positive about that. 

Q. What happened with the batten in the mean- 
time from that Friday afternoon until Sunday 
morning; was it produced ? A. I think it was; I 
don't remember anything about it, but I know the 
batten was there and we were using it. 

Q. How did it come there from the carpenter's 
shop? A. I don't remember. 

Q. It was there anyway? A. It was there; I 
don't remember who sent it down or anything about 
it. 

Q. Did you see the marks that were then put 
upon the Defender on her stem and two disks on 
the side? A. I didn't see them until afterwards. 

Q. Did you see them afterwards that day? A. 
Yes, sir, I did. 

Q. When did you last see the Defender?. A. I 
think it was about 

Q. A few days ago? A. No, sir; about the 21st 
of November, I think. 

Q. You haven't been up there since? A. No, 
sir ; once since she was laid up. 

Q. Where did you see her on the 21st of Novem- 
ber? A. In her winter quarters. 

Q. Did you see her after her spars and boom 
were out? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Did you observe those marks then? A. Yes, 
sir. 

Q. Were they the same identical marks that 
had been put on the day of the second measuring? 
A. The same marks and in the same position. 

Q. You put her into winter quarters yourself? 
A. Yes, sir. 



521 



Q. (By Mr. AsJcioith.) When did you put her 
into winter quarters? A. We went into final 
winter quarters on about the 1st of October, I 
think. 

Q. Have you been down there several times to 
see her since? A. Down there once. I left her on 
the morning of the 5th, and I have been there once 
to plant some anchors ; that is all. 

Q. Can you tell me whether the bronze is cor- 
roded with water? A. Not at that time. 

Q. Has it corroded? A. Not at that time, I say. 

Q. Was it the 5th of: October the last time you 
went there? A. No. I say I was there once since 
the 5th of October. I think about the 20th or 21st. 

Q. Of October? A. No; I think November. I 
think that is right. 

Q. You are not sure? A. I am quite sure. 

Q. Did you go a month ago or two months ago? 
A. A little over a month ago, I think. 

Q. Except from the eye you are not able to 
judge whether these marks are in the same place 
or not? A. I can judge most anything. I didn't 
measure it. 

Q. You are pretty clever at judging? A. Well, 
I am used to seeing such things. 

Q. Have you ever been engaged in skilled meas- 
uring yourself ? A. No, sir; not particularly. 

Q. If a man puts this batten against the side of 
the boat, couldn't he tell within three or four 
inches whether the marks were in the same place? 
A. I don't understand what you mean. 

Q. Supposing that the marking had taken place 
with the copper tacks put upon deck, showing 
about where the load water line marks might be 
marked below, and the same batten that had been 
used for that purpose was employed, would not, 
even in the dark with a lantern, a man be able to 
identify whether the boat was 3 or 4 inches lower 
in the water? A. I don't think he could tell very 
easily. 



522 



Q. Could he tell with difficulty ? A. I doubt 
whether he could tell to make it satisfactory. 

Q. Without an absolutely exact measurement, 
could he tell to a certain extent? A. He might be 
able to tell within 2 feet or such a difference. I 
doubt whether he could tell one foot or not. 

Q. Was there a bilge pump connected with this 
hole on the port side amidships ? A. There was. 

Q. Where was that ; below or was it on the 
deck? A. The pump? 

Q. Yes. A. Well, the pump comes flush with 
the deck. The pump was operated from the deck. 

Q. It was operated from the deck? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. {By Mr. Bives.) It was one of those pumps 
that screw into a hole in the deck? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. If it was not in use, you took it out and laid 
it down below? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. It is a usual method on sailing yachts, isn't 
it? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. {By Mr. AsTcwith.) Was there any pump 
connected with this hole on the starboard side for- 
ward, that we have heard of? A. Water closet 
pump ; that is a permanent fixture there. 

Q. Was there a pump ever connected with that? 
A. Only that one I say — the water closet — that is 
all. 

Q. There was no bilge pump there? A. Not at 
all ; only one bilge pump in the boat. 

Q. Can you tell me at all from that model how 
far down into the Defender you could see if you 
were below the deck? A. How far down? 

Q. Yes? A. You could see to her keel, but I 
don't know the distance exactly. The latter part 
of it you can see away to the keel. Her lead 
didn't go away aft. 

Q. Have you seen the working plans of the De- 
fender? A. No, sir; I don't know that I ever saw 
any plans of her. 

Q. Or the specifications? A. No, sir. 

Q. {By Mr. Whitney.) Captain Haff, how far is 



523 



it from where you finished the race on Saturday to 
Bay Ridge? A. Somewhere near 25 miles; 23 or 
24 miles, I should say. 

Q. And from Bay Ridge to the Erie Basin? A. 
Well, Bay Ridge, after you once get to Bay 
Ridge on a direct line, probably 3 or 4 miles. If 
we were to anchor at Bay Ridge and had to tow to 
the Erie Basin we would have to go five miles or 
more, because we have to tow down around the 
shoal spit buoy and come up ; go around the Bat- 
tery — or not the Battery, but Governor's Island. 

Q. If you were going from where you finished 
the race to the Erie Basin, what distance would 
you have to go? A. Twenty miles from the Hook 
to the Battery ; well, 27 or 28 miles, I should say. 

John Hyslop, recalled and further interrogated. 

Mr. Choate : I would say to the Committee 
that Mr. Hyslop, being the official measurer 
and having — which I did not call out before — 
verified the drawings that were made by Mr. 
DeLuze, the engineer, I did not know but the 
Committee would like to ask him some ques- 
tions about the drawings. I will have the 
drawings produced and show what he did. 

The Chairman : Captain Mahan desires to 
ask him a question. 
Q. {By Captain Mahan.) There is only one 
question. You state you cannot measure boats in 
the dark ; that is, with reference to exact measure- 
ments. Would the same be true within a foot? 
Could you measure within a foot without artificial 
light? A. I tried on Wednesday and it was im- 
possible to see within a foot. The difficulty was 
to see the other end of the batten. 

Q. {By Mr. AsTcwith.) How long is the batten? 
A. It has to be long enough to reach from the 
body of the boat at the water to the plumb line to 
drop to the part that has been measured from. 



524 



Q. How long was it in this case? A. Oh, 20 
feet long. The distance to be measured was 17 
feet and y 1 ^- of a foot. That is the longest 
measurement I had to take, but the batten itself 
was several feet longer. 

Q. {By Mr. Rives.) It is a little piece of wood? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Floats on the water? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. One end touches the boat and to the other 
end you drop a plumb line over from the extreme 
bow or extreme stern ? A. Exactly. 

Q. {By Mr. Choate.) Mr. Hyslop, have you seen 
the drawing made by Mr. DeLuze projecting the 
water line as it was as she lay in the water at the 
time of the measurement? A. I have not seen the 
drawing and examined it carefully, but I heard 

Q. What did you do about it? A. I heard the 
announcement of the result which Mr. DeLuze gave, 
and I have made some measurements independent 
of Mr. DeLuze altogether, but taken from the same 
points, which confirmed the results which he gave 
you. 

Q. {By the Chairman.) Did you hear his testi- 
mony here? A. I did, sir. 

Mr. Choate : That is all I wanted to show by 
Mr. Hyslop. I did not know but some of the 
Committee ought to know more on that sub- 
ject. 

Mr. Rives : You will turn over the drawings 
to us, won't you, Mr. Choate? 

Mr. Choate : Yes, sir ; they are here. 

Q. {By Mr. AsJcwith.) These drawings show the 
pipe hole below the water? A. Is this starboard 
or port (referring to drawing) ? 

Mr. Bickford : The port side. 
A. Mr. DeLuze makes the distance from the top of 
the pipe hole to the surface of the water in the 
vessel's original trim at ■£%■ of an inch, and in the 
independent calculation I made that distance to 
be T % Q ,j of an inch. 



525 



Q. (By the Chairman.) What does lie make it? 
A. Nine thirty-seconds of an inch. 

Q. And you make it? A. Twenty-nine one- 
hundredths. 

Q. (By Mr. Askwith.) It ought to be twenty - 
nine one-hundredths of an inch between the water 
line and the top of the pipe hole? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. (By Mr. Choate.) That pipe hole being that 
much below the water? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. (By Mr. Askwith.) The top of the pipe hole 
being that much below the water? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How much is the breadth of the pipe hole 
in diameter? A. It is marked here two inches and 
one-eighth. I had no occasion to examine that, but 
I should say that is correct. 

Q. Are you aware that Mr. Herreshoff said that 
the pipe hole was intended to be about the water 
line? A. I heard Mr. Herreshoff's testimony, and 
my recollection agrees with that, yes, sir. 

Q. Have you seen the plans upon which he pre- 
pared that? A. No, sir. 

Q. Did you examine the pipe hole at the time of 
measurement on September 6th? A. I did not. 

Q. Did you know that it is stated by two wit- 
nesses that at that time it was above the water? A. 
I have heard some affidavits read which 

Q. Did you hear Lord Dunraven say so? A. 
Yes, I heard Lord Dunraven make that statement. 

Q. Did you hear the affidavit of Mr. Watson that 
it was then, as a fact, above the water? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Was the boat true when you measured it? 
A. What do you mean by true? 

Q. Lying true in the water? A. Free from any 
list, do you mean? 

Q. Free from any list? A. She had no consid- 
erable list. 

Q. Had she any list? A. She might have had. 

Q. Do you know that Mr. Iselin looked at the 
telltale the moment before he took his place and 
she had no list? A. I do not. 



526 



Q. Can you say whether she had a list or not? 
A. I can say that she had no considerable list, but 
I cannot say that she had no list whatever. 

Q. Can you say whether she had a list or not? 
A. No, sir. 

Q. The rule in measurement is that a boat should 
lie as true as possible upon the water to obtain an 
exact measurement ; it is required or desirable, and 
the proper thing, that a boat should lie true upon the 
water? A. I am not aware of any rule in the mat- 
ter, but the practice is that there should be no such 
list as would affect a boat's length on the load line, 
but a list of half a degree, or a quarter of a degree, 
or something of that kind, would have no effect on 
the length of the load line. 

Q. Did you examine the distance between the 
bobstay bolt and the water at the time of the meas- 
urement? A. No, sir. 

Q. Would you be unable to state whether the 
plate landing between the bobstay bolt and the 
water was half way between the two? A. Half way 
between what two? 

Q. Between the bobstay bolt and the water? A. 
Yes, «ir ; I could tell that. 

Mr. AsJcwith : That is all I will ask. 

Q. {By Mr. Choate.) Was a request made to 
mark the water line not only on the stem, but where 
this disk was placed further aft? A. No request 
was made to mark the boat at the extreme end of 
the water line at the stern. The marks that were 
made were in the places suggested by Mr. Watson. 

Q. {By Mr. Aslcwith.) You haven't seen the 
boat itself now with regard to those measurements ? 
A. I have seen the boat within a few days. 

Q. You have been down to New Rochelle? A. 
Yes, sir ; I saw her on Saturday ; a week ago last 
Saturday. 

Q. Did you agree with Mr. Iselin that the disk 
and the pipe hole and the bronze p]ating are a 
little corroded? A. I know nothing of that. 



527 



Q. You did not examine her closely enough? 
A. No, sir. I gave no attention to that whatever. 

Mr. Choate : Captain Haff wants to correct 
something. 

Captain Haff : I should have said in my 
statement as to where the Hattie Palmer laid 
over night, Forty-second Street, instead of 
Twenty- sixth Street, South Brooklyn. That 
is where I understood she laid. I did not see 
her at either place. 

Mr. Choate : You were requested by us to 
have all the crew, ship's company on the De- 
fender, here, that could be got? 

Captain Haff : Yes, sir. 

Mr. Choate : And a large number of them 
have been produced and the affidavits of a 
great many more. Where are the rest? 

Captain Haff : They were where they could 
not be got at. 

The Chairman : If I understood right, Mr. 
Choate — and if not, I should like to under- 
stand it — there are only three of the De- 
fender's crew that have not been examined in 
some way? 

Mr. Choate : There are but three. 

Mr. Bickford : Five. 

Mr. Hives ; They were all accounted for by 
Mr. Choate yesterday. 

Mr. Choate : Yes, sir. I merely wanted to 
verify that by Captain Haff. 

Mr. AsTcwith : They are at sea? 

Mr. Choate : They are at sea, or were when 
we sent summons for them. 

The Chairman : Is there anything else to be 
offered to the Committee on any side? 

Mr. A skwith : I should like the whole of 
the pamphlet in the proceedings, the whole 
of Lord Dunraven's pamphlet put in the pro- 
ceedings. 

Mr. Rives : The whole of his letter to Mr. 



528 



Grant will be printed. I do not think it is 
necessary to print the two. 

Mr. AsTcwith: I don't think it is necessary 
to print the appendix, but the whole of the 
matter which comes down to page 33, and in 
fact all the material that was printed in the 
< < Field." 

Mr. Rims : We are printing the letter to 
Mr. Grant with the differences between the 
two indicated by parentheses, so that you prac- 
tically get both the pamphlet and the letter 
together. 

Mr. Askwith : Oh, I see. 

Mr. Choate : Mr. Iselin wishes to add a 
single word in answer to something Mr. Ask- 
with has said about the corrosion, I don't 
remember what he did say. 

Mr. Iselin : I should have said the bronze 
of the Defender is tarnished or blackened, in- 
stead of corroded. 

Mr. Whitney : I did not understand you 
to use the word ' ' corroded ' ' in your testimony. 
You said darkened. 

Mr. Iselin : Mr. Askwith said that I had 
said corroded; I did not remember having 
said so. 

Mr. Whitney : My recollection may be at 
fault, but I understood you to say it was 
darkened. 

The Chairman : Then we will consider the 
testimony as closed. 

Mr. Choate : Without waiting for Captain 
Taylor to say anything further? 

The Chairman : The Committee, for their 
own satisfaction, may have some conversation 
with Captain Taylor. 

Mr. Choate : I would like to ask the Com- 
mittee whether they consider that they have 
anything to pass upon with regard to the Cup 
Committee not communicating Lord Dun- 



529 



raven's request, such as it was, to Mr. Iselin? 
I do not understand that, in accordance with 
your prior announcement, you have anything to 
do with it. A good deal was made of that in 
some of Lord Dunraven' s communications, but 
I have not considered it my province to do any- 
thing but look out for Mr. Iselin. 

Mr. Whitney : I have not understood that 
Lord Dunraven requested the Committee to 
communicate anything to Mr. Iselin. 

Mr. Choate : He wrote as though he under- 
stood it had been communicated. He says 
repeatedly : all on board the Defender knew all 
about it, " or knew of my complaint." 

Mr. Whitney : He has not testified that he 
made any request of the Committee to com- 
municate anything to Mr. Iselin. 

Mr. AsTcwith : I think it was stated he 
would not dictate what action the Committee 
should take. 

Mr. Whitney : I only say that because it 
occurred to me that there was no such issue 
for us to pass upon. Do you think there is? 

Mr. Choate : No. I understand from the 
previous announcements of the Committee that 
you are only passing upon the question whether 
there was any foul play on the part of the 
Defender. 

The Chairman : We do not expect to take 
into consideration any fact or circumstance 
unless it bears some way on that one issue. 

Mr. AsTcwith : It seems to be a personal 
matter between Lord Dunraven and Mr. Iselin. 
The absence of earlier information appears to 
have led Mr. Iselin to use language, according 
to report, which, if he had received earlier in- 
formation, he might have avoided using. 

The Chairman : That is outside of this in- 
quiry, I think. 

Mr. Choate: Now, in regard to the correc- 



580 



tion of the testimony, Mr. Askwith. It has 
not yet been corrected. How do you pro- 
pose? 

Mr. Askwith : I have received a certain 
number of proof sheets, and I am going to stay 
in the city for some days longer. If I can 
have them as they are printed, I will use my 
best endeavors to put in the little alterations 
that appear to me. As far as I have gone it 
seems to me very correctly printed. The only 
alterations seem to be in stops to make sense of 
the sentences. But as to any alterations that 
were of any importance on either side, I think 
we might meet together and see what we can 
do in the matter ; whether we can agree. 

The Chairman : It is very desirable the 
testimony should be as accurate as possible 
when it is printed, as it may be the subject of 
comment hereafter. 

Mr. Askwith : As it has fallen from the lips 
of the witnesses, and as it stands here, would be 
the mode in which we should say the proceed- 
ings ought to go out, without any alterations 
of fact. 

The Chairman : Certainly. 
Mr. Askwith : But, if there is a sentence 
which is incomprehensible, we might refer to 
the stenographer's notes again, and put in a 
palpable sentence by agreement. 

Mr. Choate : We will meet you when it is 
all in hand, either at our office, or at your 
hotel, as you may prefer. 

Mr. Askwith : You will have copies, I pre- 
sume, similar to these I have. 

Mr. Choate : Yes. 

Mr. Askwith : Suppose I correct mine and 
you yours and then we get together. 

Mr. Choate: Very well. 

The Chairman : How soon shall we have 
these copies? 



531 



Mr. Choate : Who has charge of the print- 
ing? 

Mr. Rives : My secretary ; Mr. Briggs will 
arrange with Mr. Bickford and Mr. Askwith 
to revise the testimony with them. 

Mr. Choate : But Mr. Phelps inquires how 
soon the printing can be in material form. 

The Chairman : For the use of the Com- 
mittee these alterations are not material. That 
is only with reference to future publication.' 
I wanted to inquire how soon we should have 
proofs or typewritten copies of the evidence. 

Mr. Hives : Would you turn over to the 
Committee for their use the typewritten copy 
you have of the testimony, Mr. Choate? 

Mr. Choate : Unquestionably. 

Mr. Hives ; We can have some additional 
proofs struck oif of the testimony and be able 
to get along pretty fast, I think. 

Mr. Choate : Certainly. We will leave that 
with the Committee now. May those plans be 
marked, or should they be marked? 

The Chairman : Perhaps they had better be 
marked. 

Mr. AsTcwith : Did I understand yesterday 
that the Committee is going to look at the De- 
fender as she is now? 

The Chairman : We have that in contem- 
plation. I cannot say that it is determined 
yet. 

Mr. Choate : I would, of course, suggest 
that if they do, and Mr. Askwith desires to be 
present, that should be accorded to him. 

The Chairman : Oh, certainly. If Mr. 
Askwith desires to go. 

Mr. AsTcwith : Mr. Herreshoff appears to 
have the plans of the boat. 

The testimony being announced closed, the com- 
mittee went into private consultation. 



Eppenbijr 



I. 

Extracts from "Conditions of the 
Races for the America's Cup, Season 
of 1895."* 

Measurements. — The competing yachts shall be 
measured with all the weights on board, dead and 
alive, which they intend to carry during a race, but 
shall not have on board more persons all told dur- 
ing any race than are admitted by BT. Y. Y. C. 
rules. Waste tanks or water tanks, if carried, 
must be filled with water at the time of measure- 
ment. The boat carried to be not less than 12 feet 
6 inches in length. 

The restriction of the "N. Y. Y. C. Rules as to 
floors, bulkheads, doors, water tanks, bower anchor 
and cable is waived. 

Alteration in Measurement. — If either yacht, 
by alteration of trim or immersion, by dead weight, 
increase her L. W. L. length, or in any way in- 
crease her spar measurements as officially taken, 
she must obtain a re-measurement by special ap- 
pointment before the next race, or, failing this, 
must report the alteration to the measurer at the 
Club House at 10 p. m. of the day before the race 
following such alteration, and must arrange with 
him for re-measurement, and, if required, be in the 
Erie Basin at 7 o'clock a. m. of the day of said 
race, aod there remain until 8 o'clock a. m. if 
necessary, for purpose of re-measurement. 

If either yacht decrease her measurements for 
racing length in any way, in order to profit thereby 
in time allowance in any race, she must obtain a 
re-measurement by special appointment before such 

* Signed on Sept. 4th by the Earl of Dunraven and Mr. J. D. 
Smith, as chairman. 



536 



race, or notify the measurer and be at his disposi- 
tion as above described. 

A measurement taken as provided above shall be 
final and not subject to protest by either party. 

In the event of the measurer being unable to 
obtain a measurement which he considers accurate, 
before a race, a re-measurement shall be taken as 
soon as possible after the race. 



537 



II. 

Letter of Lord Dunraven of Sep- 
tember 5, 1895. 

29 Beoadway, 

September 5th. 

Dear Mr. Canfield : I see by the papers that 
dates have been altered so as to ensure that one 
week-day shall intervene between races. If that 
is so, I am sorry for it. As I told Commodore 
Smith yesterday, I should much prefer sailing off 
the races as quickly as possible. Had I the fixing 
of dates, I should have said Saturday, Monday, 
Wednesday, Thursday, Saturday. It may be an 
advantage to men at home to have plenty of rest 
between races, but to strangers it is a positive dis- 
advantage. There is a certain amount of anxiety 
and wear and tear on all hands, and it is better for 
the men to be employed than doing nothing. I am 
opposed to Sunday work if it can be avoided, but 
I do not see how under the original arrangement of 
dates Sunday work could have been necessary, 
seeing that in the case of accident, the only thing 
that can render work of any kind necessary, the 
Committee can give "reasonable time" — that is 
reasonable time on a week-day. Moreover, the 
change may somewhat complicate my arrangements 
for extra hands. I should, therefore, prefer the 
original dates. But, as I told Commodore Smith, 
I am anxious to fall in with the views of Mr. Iselin 
or of the Committee, and I do not positively object 
to the amendment, though I fail to see the object 
or benefit of it. 

TV ¥f 7» TV TV TV 

Yours very truly, 

Dunraven. 



538 



III. 

Letter of Lord Dunraven of Septem- 
ber 6, 1895. 

439 Fifth Avenue, Sept. 6, 1895. 

Dear Mr. Canfield — I have received your 
letter notifying me of the alteration of dates. 

That question having been reopened, I wish to 
call your attention to another matter which, on re- 
flection, I do not consider satisfactory. This con- 
test may possibly extend over a period of ten days 
or a fortnight. It is obvious that alterations in the 
L. W. L. length of a vessel may, under present 
conditions, be made without an owner's knowledge, 
and without possibility of detection. It is, of 
course, impossible to guard absolutely against such 
an occurrence. But these contests cannot be com- 
pared with ordinary races, and, in the interest of 
the public, and of the owners, who have to do 
their best to see that rules are obeyed, it is surely 
right and necessary that the Cup Committee should 
take every precaution to see that the vessels sail on 
their measured L. W. L. length. 

For this reason I request that the measurer be 
instructed to mark each vessel's measured L. W. L. 
length on the stem and stern, and to take any 
steps that he or the committee think advisable, by 
remeasurement at any time, or any other means, 
to ascertain that the L. W. L. length, as measured, 
is not exceeded in sailing. To mark the vessels is 
a perfectly simple matter ; a scratch with a tile or 
chisel and a distinct paint mark would suffice. 
* * *■ * * * 

Yours very truly, 

Dunraven. 



539 



IY. 

Extract from the Report of the 
America's Cup Committee, presented 
to the N. Y. Yacht Club October 24, 
1895. 

It will be observed that this letter was dated 
Sept. 6th*, the day set for measurement. The final 
agreement of terms was signed on Sept. 4th and 
contained no provision that the yachts should be 
marked as Lord Dunraven now requested. The 
Committee, therefore, considered Mr. Iselin's assent 
to this request necessary, and two members of the 
Committee proceeded to the Erie Basin, saw Mr. 
Iselin, who at once acquiesced in the proposal. 

Valkyrie had been already measured and had 
left the Basin, and on account of the tide 
could not return in order to be marked that day. 
It was, therefore, arranged with Lord Dunraven, 
Mr. Iselin, the representatives from each side, Mr. 
Geo. L. Watson and Mr. Herreshoff, and the meas- 
urer that the yachts should be marked on the day 
following the first race, that is on Sept. 8th. The 
measurer was instructed to preserve the marked 
batten, used to locate the ends of the L. W. L., as 
measured from the ends of the overhang, in order 
that the marks should be properly placed, and that 
the yachts floated at the same point of immersion 
as when first measured. 

The result of the official measurements taken 

Sept. 6th, were: 

Defender. Valkyrie. 

Length on L. W. L 88.45 feet. 88.85 feet. 

Square-root of sail area 112.26 " 114.14 " 

Racinglength 100.36 " 101.49 " 

Persons on board when measured 50 60 

* See the letter on the preceding page. 



540 



Yalkyrie allows 29 seconds over a 30-knot 
course.* 

On Saturday, September 7th, Lord Dunraven 
communicated to the Cup Committee his belief that 
Defender had sailed that day's race immersed three 
(3) or four (4) inches more than when she was 
measured. 

Lord Dunraven stated that he believed that the 
change had been made without the knowledge of 
Defender's owners, but it must be corrected or he 
would discontinue racing. 

He did not wish to say to the Committee what 
action it should take, but he desired a re-measure- 
ment that day (Saturday, Sept. 7th). 

The Cup Committee, after considering the com- 
munication from Lord Dunraven, ordered a re- 
measurement to be made at the earliest possible 
moment. 

On September 8th, the yachts were marked as 
requested by Lord Dunraven. At the same time 
they were re-measured, with result of only -§- of an 
inch difference in L. W. L. in case of Defender 
and T V of an inch in Valkyrie. As the result varied 
the time allowance only a second or two and in no 
way affected the outcome of the races, it is not 
deemed necessary to give the additional measure- 
ments. 

* Defender and Vigilant were measured for the trials on Septem- 
ber 17th, 

Defender, with 48 men on board, measured as follows: 

Length on L. W. L 88.85 feet 

Square-root of sail area 111.35 " 

Racing Length 100. 10 " 



541 



V. 

Letter from Mr. Iselin in Reply to 
Lord Dunraven's Charges. 

New York, November 18th, 1895. 

To the New York Yacht Club. 
Gentlemen : 

I desire to lay before you for your considera- 
tion to-day the charges made by Lord Dunraven 
in his letter to the London Fields of which the 
annexed is a copy. 

A careful perusal of this letter will show that 
Lord Dunraven makes the charge that, after hav- 
ing been measured for the Cup Races in September 
last, the Defender was surreptitiously loaded so as 
to sink her four inches deeper in the water, that 
she sailed in that condition on the first day's race, 
and that immediately after that race the ballast so 
loaded was secretly removed so that, when meas- 
ured the next day (Sunday), no discrepancy was 
found to exist between the two measurements. 
While Lord Dunraven intimates that I was not 
personally cognizant of the fraud, the charge is 
none the less explicit. 

Now, Lord Dunraven is an experienced yachts- 
man, and, when he made this charge, he knew per- 
fectly well, as every yachtsman knows, that it was 
a practical impossibility for such a thing as he 
charges to have been done on the Defender between 
her measurement on Friday and her sailing on Sat- 
urday without being known or made known to me, 
who, on behalf of the owners of the Defender and 
in the name of the New York Yacht Club, was 
charged with the sole personal responsibility of 
managing her during the race. Officers and men 
to the number of thirty-eight were on board of her 
all the intervening time, and it is impossible that 



542 



the fourteen tons of ballast necessary to accomplish 
the result charged, could have been put into her on 
Friday night and taken out again before Sunday, 
without the fact being known to a large number of 
witnesses. I was responsible for the proper officer- 
ing and manning of the yacht. I personally ex- 
amined the Defender's hold and every part of her 
on the morning of the 7th immediately before the 
race, and I know the absolute falsity of the impu- 
tation. I consider myself, therefore, as standing 
before the world solemnly charged by Lord Dun- 
raven with an offence as base as could possibly be 
imputed to a sportsman and a gentleman, and 
which I indignantly resent and repel, — and more 
than that : with having betrayed the confidence 
of my associates in the ownership of the Defender, 
the trust placed in me by the New York Yacht 
Club, and the good name of my country, whose re- 
putation for fair play was involved in the contest. 
Lord Dunraven claims to have sailed the race on 
Saturday after being satisfactorily assured that he 
had been cheated in the fraudulent overloading of 
the Defender. He sailed the next race on the 10th 
with the same conviction on his mind that on the 
first day's race he had been cheated. He broke 
off the last day's race not upon any such ground, 
but on the entirely distinct ground that the course 
would not and could not be kept clear. He went 
home, and after a silence of more than two months, 
he makes this odious charge in a communication 
addressed not to me, nor to the owners of the De- 
fender, nor to either the New York Yacht Club or 
the Royal Yacht Squadron, whom we respectively 
represented in the races for the America's Cup, but 
to a public newspaper on the other side of the At- 
lantic which it would be impossible for me to read 
or reply to before it had already made a deep im- 
pression on the minds of his countrymen. 



543 



Relying upon its belief in my integrity, the New 
York Yacht Club deemed itself justified in placing 
its honor and that of the country in my hands in the 
conduct of the race. I could not have imagined 
that in assuming that trust, I should expose my- 
self and you to such gross imputations. But now 
that they have been made, 1 place myself in your 
hands, in order that the Club may take such steps 
as it sees lit, not alone to vindicate the Defender 
and the honor of her owners, but also to refute the 
imputation cast upon the good faith of the Club 
and the Country. 

I have the honor to remain 

Very respectfully yours, 

C. Oliver Iselin. 



544 



VI. 

Statement received December 14, 
1895, from the America's Cup Com- 
mittee. 

To Messrs. J. Pierpont Morgan, William C. 
Whitney & George L. Rives ; a Committee ap- 
pointed at a Special Meeting of the N. T. T. C. , 
held November 18th, in reference to certain 
published statements by the Earl of Dunraven, 
regarding the late match for the America's 
Cup : 

Gentlemen : 

In pursuance of the intimation conveyed in 
your letter of November 22d, 1895, that your 
Committee would be glad to receive any statement 
which the members of the America's Cup Com- 
mittee desired to make, we propose to submit here- 
with a somewhat detailed review of the events in- 
volved and to consider the character of the charges 
made by Lord Dunraven against the yacht Defender, 
his evidence, his procedure and the action taken by 
the Committee in the more important circumstances 
of the contest. 

It is proper to state at the outset that the respon- 
sibility for the course pursued falls on the Com- 
mittee solely, as those in control of Defender were 
not informed of the charges made against their 
vessel. 

(I.) As to marking the yachts. 

In his published statement Lord Dunraven seems 
to imply that his request that the yachts be marked 
on the outside at the ends of the load water line 
was made prior to the signing of the agreement of 
terms and that the Committee neglected to take 
action in the matter until after the first race and 



545 



only as a result of his charge against Defender. 
Such an implication is a misrepresentation of the 
facts, which are as follows : 

On August 30th Lord Dunraven met the Com- 
mittee to discuss the conditions of the race. He 
then suggested marking the yachts at the water 
level. The Committee replied that this was not the 
custom of the Club, and Lord Dunraven waived the 
point. A draft of the conditions, with some few 
alterations, was prepared by the Secretary and was 
submitted to Lord Dunraven and signed by him on 
September 4th (not September 6th, as he now says). 
After the meeting on August 30th, Lord Dunraven 
did not recur to the subject until his letter dated 
September 6th (not 5th) asking that the yachts be 
marked on the outside at the L.W.L. On this day, 
September 6th, the yachts had agreed to be at the 
Erie Basin for measurement. Upon receipt of this 
request two of the Committee proceeded to the Erie 
Basin, in order to arrange, if possible, that the 
yachts should be marked that day. 

It was found that Valkyrie had been measured 
and taken out of the Basin, and that it would be 
impossible for her, on account of the tide, to return 
and be marked that day. It was therefore ar- 
ranged with Lord Dunraven and Mr. Iselin, that 
the yachts should be marked as the former re- 
quested, on the morning of the day following the 
first race, and that the representatives from each 
side should be present. 

As Mr. Watson had undertaken to affix the 
marks, the Measurer was instructed in his pres- 
ence to preserve the marked batten, used to 
locate the ends of the L. W. L., as measured from 
the end of the overhang, to ajjply the same when 
the marks were affixed, and thus ensure that the 
L. W. L. was the same as when first measured on 
September 6th. 



546 



(II.) As to the complaint made by Lord Dun- 
raven during the Match that Defender exceeded 
her measured L. W. L. during the first race : 

(a) The facts in the matter are as follows : 

Prior to the start, on September 7th, the day of 
the first race, Lord Dunraven stated to Mr. Latham 
A. Fish, a member of the Committee and the rep- 
resentative of the N". Y. Y. C. that day on Valkyrie, 
that he, Lord Dunraven, and some four or five 
others whom he named, were confident from their 
own observation that Defender was 3 or 4 inches 
deeper in the water than when measured the pre- 
vious day. He stated that he believed this altera- 
tion had been made without the knowledge of the 
owners of Defender, but it must be corrected or he 
would discontinue racing. 

He said he did not wish to say to the Committee 
what action they should take, but he desired a re- 
measurement that day, after the race. 

Mr. Fish remarked to Lord Dunraven that, in 
his opinion, it would be too dark after the race to 
re-measure that day. 

The first intimation that the Committee received 
of this conversation was when, in response to a hail 
from Valkyrie, Mr. Fish was taken on board the 
Committee boat shortly after six p. m. Mr. Fish 
immediately reported to the Committee. Owing to 
the lateness of the hour it was a physical impossi- 
bility to take Defender to a proper place and re- 
measure her that day. The Committee took steps 
to ensure that a re-measurement the next day, in 
connection with the marking, should be thoroughly 
done. This re-measurement showed less than one- 
eighth of an inch difference in the L. W. L. length 
of Defender, as compared with Friday's figures. 

And thus the matter ended. 

It is proper to note here that Lord Dunraven is 



547 



in error in asserting that he asked or suggested that 
a watch be placed on both vessels until measured. 

We do not make this denial as a defense of the 
Committee's action or as implying that such a re- 
quest or suggestion would have been followed. 

As will appear from what follows, the Committee 
decided upon a course of action which did not in- 
volve proving or disproving Lord Dunraven' s im- 
plication of fraud. 

As bearing somewhat on the case, it is only fair 
to Mr. Fish to say that he was in no way acting as 
a member of the Committee that day on Valkyrie, 
but merely as the representative of the N. Y. Y. C, 
to see fair play during the race, and his only func- 
tion in this matter was that of a trustworthy mes- 
senger. 

(5) As to the nature and gravity of the charge 
made by Lord Dunraven against the yacht De- 
fender. 

Lord Dunraven's complaint contained an asser- 
tion that his adversary exceeded her measured L. 
W. L., and a call for re-measurement. If it went 
no farther than this, it was completely satisfied by 
the re-measurement made at the earliest oppor- 
tunity. If it went farther, then it was a charge of 
fraudulent violation of the rules by the yacht De- 
fender, and the owners were directly responsible. 
A plea that by their neglect the fraud had been 
committed without their knowledge, would have 
been puerile. Any attempt to treat such a charge 
informally, or to evade the gravity of the accusa- 
tion, was and is, futile. With no knowledge as to 
what supervision had been exercised by Mr. Iselin, 
Lord Dunraven expressed to Mr. Fish his belief 
that the owners of Defender were in ignorance of 
the alleged alteration, and he now says : 

" I told .... him (Mr. Fish) I thought some 



548 



mistake had been made and that all the weight put 
into Defender after measurement had not been 
taken out." 

Did Lord Dunraven seriously think he could re- 
lieve the owners of the burden of his charge, or 
that a matter of at least twenty thousand pounds of 
weight might have been left in Defender by "mis- 
take," when removing such weights as had been 
put in after measurement, and that a watch should 
be set to prevent this "mistake " from being cor- 
rected before re-measurement? 

(c) As to the evidence on which the charge was 
based. 

Lord Dunraven based his charge on his obser- 
vation of the bobstay, a pipe hole amidships, and 
the line of the bronze plating. He further cites 
that Defender was six inches longer than when 
measured for the Goelet Cup Race, and that men 
were working on Defender until one a.m. on the 
night of September 6th. These last two points seem 
to us, as matters of evidence, about equally devoid 
of importance. 

The bobstay, as Lord Dunraven admits, would be 
of little value as a guide, unless the position of the 
crew, sails, etc., were the same as during measure- 
ment. The pipe hole "amidships," his other 
mark, awash when seen in the Basin during meas- 
urement, would be immersed by a list of less than 
2 degrees in a vessel of Defender's beam at the 
L.W.L. 

On these grounds Lord Dunraven unhesitatingly 
attacks the good name and faith of every man on 
Defender during the nights of September 6th and 
7th, and the owners of the vessel as well, whatever 
he may be pleased to say to the contrary. 

In vessels of the outline of Defender, the L.W.L. 
length increases about 7 inches for each inch of 
immersion. Perfectly still water is necessary to 



549 



locate the end of the L. W.L. when measuring, and 
the slightest disturbance of the surface is certain 
to produce the illusion that the L.W.L. is longer 
and the vessel more deeply immersed; it seems 
probable that Lord Dunraven and his friends were 
suffering from such an illusion. 

The complaint made to Mr. Fish was of an in- 
creased immersion of 3 or 4 inches. This would 
involve the transference of twenty to thirty thou- 
sand pounds of ballast. In his public statement, 
Lord Dunraven claims that Defender's L.W.L. 
was about one foot longer ; this would correspond 
to an increased immersion of less than two inches. 

It is not our province to reconcile these state- 
ments; we can only say that, in our opinion, it 
would be hardly possible in open water to recog- 
nize an increase of one foot in the L.W.L. length, 
or of less than 2 inches in the immersion, of a vessel 
of Defender's outline. 

(d) As to the course of action adopted by Lord 
Dunraven in the matter. 

In explanation of his course of action Lord Dun- 
raven now says in his published statement : 

' ' I was reluctant to make a formal complaint to 
the Cup Committee on a matter which it was of 
course impossible for me to verify ; in any case 
nothing could be done before the race was started." 

A charge of such gravity admitted of no alterna- 
tive. If made at all it demanded imperatively a 
formal complaint. 

"Nothing could be done before the race was 
started." 

Before the start on September 7th Lord Dunraven 
asserted to Mr. Fish that a condition of the con- 
test had been violated. He had ample opportunity 
between the time he made his alleged discovery and 
the start of the first race, to formally signal his 



550 



protest and announce his refusal to race an oppo- 
nent whom he suspected of fraud, until an investi- 
gation of the accusation and evidence had been 
made. 

In this way a remeasurement could have been 
secured that day and the charge verified, if true. 

(e) As to the course of action and the position 
taken by the Committee. 

When Mr. Fish reported to the Committee, it 
was too late to remeasure Defender that day. Lord 
Dunraven asserts that the remeasurement the next 
day proved nothing and intimates that it was the 
duty of the Committee to place a watch on De- 
fender until measured, in order to prevent the 
perpetration of a new fraud which would conceal 
the previous one. 

As between Lord Dunraven and us the question 
is, was this the duty of the Committee under the 
circumstances ? 

Leaving aside all question of the power of any 
Committee to take such action, or of this Commit- 
tee, under the powers delegated to it, we reply 
that such action was not incumbent on the Com- 
mittee, and for the following reasons : 

First. — The charge was of a disgraceful and 
shameful action, and in order to receive attention 
it demanded to be presented in an unqualifiedly 
formal manner. 

As a matter of fact it was made in an informal, 
verbal message, unaccompanied by protest or signed 
statement of any kind, and was coupled with in- 
admissible pleas advanced by the accuser, to the 
effect that the owners were probably ignorant of 
the alteration and that it was due to a mistake. 

Second. — As a basis for treating Defender as an 
accused criminal, the charge was founded on most 
illusory and insufficient facts. 

Third. — The accuser had neglected his oppor- 



551 

tunity to protest before the race and so secure a 
remeasurement that day, and in view of such neg- 
lect the onus of taking up the charge of fraud did 
not rest on the Committee, and, a fortiori, they 
were not bound to have recourse to methods un- 
precedented in the history of American yacht 
racing. 

The charge involved the transference of twenty 
to thirty thousand pounds of weight and the con- 
nivance of the whole crew of the American yacht 
and her tender, and was considered by the Com- 
mittee absurd and preposterous. 

The Committee decided to treat the complaint 
simply as a call for remeasurement, and to disre- 
gard all imputations of fraud ; and by so doing to 
force upon the accuser the issue, either to support 
his charge and protest against his treatment by the 
Committee, or to drop the subject and go on with 
the match. 

We maintain that the circumstances justified 
such a treatment of the matter by the Committee. 

Lord Dunraven did go on with the match until 
a further grievance induced his withdrawal, and 
he made no further reference to the subject in his 
dealings with the Committee. 

We maintain that the Committee were entitled 
to regard his action in continuing the contest after 
his complaint, and especially after his threat of 
withdrawal, as tantamount to a withdrawal of his 
charges, and an acknowledgment that he no longer 
had grounds of complaint, and that he was also in 
honor bound to so regard it. 

If this is so, the statement in the " Field" of 
November 9th, that Defender sailed the first race 
immersed below her measured L.W.L., must, in 
justice to Lord Dunraven, be considered, not as a 
recurrence of his former complaint, but as a new 
accusation, and must, in justice to the owners of 
Defender, be treated as such. 



552 



Some surprise has been expressed at the equa- 
nimity with which the Committee's report to the 
N". Y. Y. C. was received, as compared with the 
indignation aroused by Lord Dunraven's published 
statement. 

The difference of feeling seems to us perfectly 
rational. 

By the report it appeared that a charge of fraud 
had been made or implied by the Challenger, which 
by his continuation of the contest he subsequently 
withdrew or abandoned. 

In his published statement Lord Dunraven 
asserts : that Defender exceeded her measured 
L. W.L. in the first race and criticises the measures 
adopted by the Committee as ineffective, thereby 
implying that Defender, by means of the oppor- 
tunity afforded, was restored to her original length 
before the remeasurement. 

(III.) As to Lord Dunraven's Complaint that the 
Committee would not postpone the last race in 
order to consider his suggestions for avoiding an 
over-crowded course. 

After sailing two races, Lord Dunraven informed 
the Committee that he considered the circumstances 
unsuitable for yacht racing and would race no more 
until a remedy was found. 

Strenuous offorts were made to control the accom- 
panying vessels. These efforts gave every promise 
of success on the morning of the third race, when 
a part of his grievance was removed by securing a 
clear start. 

Lord Dunraven's proposed conditions as to 
changing the course or not announcing the dates 
and times of races, the Committee did not think 
possible to grant. 

It seemed to them time to end the matter. It 
seemed to them useless and undignified to delay 
the start for further parley with a challenger who 
in the middle of a contest had seen fit to advance 



553 

new conditions in the form of an ultimatum under 
a threat of withdrawal. 

(TV.) As to Lord Dunraven's withdrawal from 
the match. 

Lord Dunraven justifies his withdrawal from the 
contest on the grounds that he did not have a fair 
field and a reasonably unobstructed course. 

If by " a fair field ' ' he implies any discrimina- 
tion against him by accompanying vessels we must 
affirm that he is in error, but from his letters we 
infer that he admits that there was none. 

In the absence of such discrimination the only 
reason left for his action was the obstructed course 
equally objectionable to both contestants. We fail 
entirely to see that this justified a withdrawal any 
more than any other material difficulty which might 
arise and which might, to the mind of one con- 
testant, spoil the sport. At all events on the day 
of the last race the physical objection did not exist 
up to the time that Valkyrie withdrew, and it 
would seem that Lord Dunraven must have been 
moved by other considerations. 

With a perfectly clear start and every indication 
of good intentions on the part of accompanying 
vessels, it seems to us impossible to justify Lord 
Dunraven's conduct, as a sportsman, in not start- 
ing and sailing the race at least until such time as 
he had reason to complain that his vessel was suf- 
fering from interference. 

We have the honor to remain, 

Your obedient servants, 

James D. Smith, 
Latham 1ST. Fish, 
J. Frederic Tams, 

GOUVERNEUR KORTRIGHT, 

A. Rogers, 
J. R. Busk, 
A. Cass Caneield. 



554 



VII. 

Memorandum for Naval Construc- 
tor as to Measurements of Defender, 
and Report thereon. 

The Committee would like to have accurately 
determined, by measurement, the exact position of 
the bilge pump hole on the port side of the yacht 
Defender (indicated in plan submitted), so as to 
show conclusively the vertical distance of the lower 
rim of the hole from the racing water line : two 
points of that line being shown by the lower edge 
of the red disk and of the mark on the stem. 

These two marks were placed by the measurer 
when yacht was in racing trim and on even keel. 

Committee would also like to know the vertical 
drop of said hole corresponding to 1°, 2°, and 3° of 
list to port. 

Also, would noticeable trimming by the head be 
produced by shifting thirty men — say two tons — 
from centre of gravity to the men's berthing quar- 
ters? 

N.B. Note if red marks are of some standing. 

A. T. Mahan. 



Navy Yard, New York, 

January 4th, 1896. 
Sir: 

In accordance with your instructions, I respect- 
fully report the following results of measurements 
taken on the Defender to answer the accompany- 
ing memorandum : 

The exact position of the bilge pump hole in the 
port side was determined entirely by measurements 
taken from the yacht herself and not from the 



555 



water, the working bases being the axes of rudder, 
mast, and bowsprit. 

The perpendicular distance of the lower edge of 
the bilge pump discharge on the port side amid- 
ships, below the racing water plane, as fixed by the 
painted marks on stem and side, is two and thirteen 
thirty seconds inches (2-J-f-). 

By means of a movable weight the yacht was in- 
clined and actual measurements taken of the drop 
of the same discharge hole, reference in this case 
being had to the actual water line, the results of 
which are as follows : 

1. A weight of two tons moved from a position 
amidships through a distance of 13.75 feet ath wart- 
ships will incline the Defender (in her present 
stripped condition) through 1°, and will drop the 
discharge hole 2J inches. 

2. A weight of 5 tons similarly moved through 
11 feet will incline her through 2°, and will drop 
the discharge hole 4-| inches. 

3. A weight of 10 tons similarly moved through 
a distance of 7.25 feet will incline her through 3°, 
and will drop the discharge hole 6f inches. 

The weight at hand was not sufficient to incline 
the yacht far enough to make the last figures ac- 
curate; but the exact figure will probably be 
slightly inside of that given. 

A weight of two tons was moved from the centre 
of gravity of the water plane forward on the middle 
line to the horizontal position of the centre of 
gravity of the crew's berthing quarters, a distance 
of 32 feet 6 inches. 

The change of trim on the present water line was 
as follows : 

Forward 2£ inches down. 

Aft 2 " up. 



556 



I carefully examioed the paint marks on stem 
and side, and it is evident they are of some stand- 
ing. 

Very respectfully, 

Frank W. Hibbs, 
Asst. -Naval Constructor, U. S. N. 

Naval Constructor, 

Francis T. Bowles, U. S. N., 

Navy Yard, New York. 



/ 




REPORT 



OF 



Special Committee 



ON CERTAIN 



CHARGES 



MADE BY THE 



Earl of Dun raven 



New York 
1896 



